The Start Orf A New Begining!

[rabbut]

That qualifys for a target ammount of filtration. 3-5 times and hour turn-over is minimum, 5-7 is the target, and 8+ times an hour is "overfiltered" IMO (assuming we aren't going down a serious planted tank scape here right?)

If you find the flow is too much, try re-adjusting the outlet such that it hits the tank walls, or a rock or anything like that, such that the flow is broken up. This way the current in the tank is reduced without cutting down on the flow from the filter

HTH
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

As a place for beginners to start, a filter flow rate that turns over the tank volume 5 times per hour is what has been recommended many times on this forum and I happen to think its good.

[For completeness I'll mention that the feelings about this can change for experienced aquarists who go off in the specialized worlds of very big-sized fish or with planted tanks, but that's pretty specialized in my opinion.]

Going back up to the earlier posts, I didn't get a chance to comment that its very good that your water changes brought the nitrate(NO3) down to 5ppm, that's exactly the type of reset that I was hoping for for you.

Regarding pH, the best information we have is that the beneficial bacteria seem to grow fastest when the pH stays in the 8.0 to 8.4 range, but the growth rate doesn't really drop off all that much all the way down to 6.2. pH of 6.2 is where it stalls and 5.5 or somewhere near that is where the bacteria can be killed by pH. Above 8.4 may also be bad but I don't know of any information about to what degree its bad. The N-Bacs are more sensitive to wanting the 8 to 8.4 I believe than the A-Bacs.

So, as rabbut touches on above, the baking soda is all about raising the KH to buffer the water, leading to greater pH stability and hopefully a somewhat slow and restricted rising of pH. My own feeling is that KH should not be raised with abandon. I feel too much carbonate hardness (KH getting above some unknown higher point) is an area where we've not seen much information. It could be that very high KH would start to have a negative effect on the N-Bacs, just like very high NO2 and NO3 can, I just don't think there's information on that out there.

So my feeling is that KH should be raised is hesitant jumps, hoping that one gets just the right amount in a given tank to hit that 8.0 to 8.4 pH sweet spot. This could be completely silly on my part, but its just a feeling I have. What the KH test kit will get you is the ability to watch the movement of KH, which is useful when using baking soda, as the cycling process can start to pull it back down a bit quicker sometimes than one might anticipate.

[rabbut, there's definately room here for some interesting speculation.. I can't remember what kind of maximum you would get in pH if you just dumped more and more bicarb in there, doesn't it top out somewhere in the 8.x range? Or would it keep heading up to pH of 9, which I would think would be bad. Also makes me wish we had some sort of collective feel on TFF for whether tanks with high pH and high KH have seemed to cycle quicker than the ones with lower numbers. Anyone have feelings on that??]

~~waterdrop~~

 

[rabbut]

Well, On anyting <75g, when I cycle, I add about 5 tablespoons by default, and anything over gets a whole 500g tub of the stuff That is admittedly very excessive, but it works for me...

I don't know how high the pH will go with baking soda, but being logarithmic, it won't take long before you are having to add shovel loads of the stuff to make a noticeable change... My "add in excess" method usualy yealds a pH between 8 and 8.5, depending on baking soda brand and the tank size and starting pH... I have never got a pH above 8.5 with soda, but I haven't realy tried to raise it further...

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Tuppers]

Right I finally got my KH Kit and I have tested both my tap and tank water and I get a reading of between 4.5 and 4.8??? Hope this helps?

Do you still want me to add the baking soda I also ave some of that now too!!??

 

[Tuppers]

Sorry....also do you want me to test PH straight after or leave a while? I was thinking about two teaspoons or one table spoon?

 

[rabbut]

My way of looking on it is that if the pH has crashed once, it will crash again, so I'd add the Baking Soda still to rectify this Start with one and see what it does. I'd get the KH above 10 for now so you don't have to worry about it, and then see where it leaves you with pH

I'd leave overnight before testing, as it will take a while for it to fully disolve

All the best
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, since your pH was only up to 7.5, there should be nothing wrong at all with putting a tablespoon into a 29g, so I'd go ahead with that.

Its unusual for KH test results to be reported with decimal points. I assume your results are in german degrees and not mg/L? A KH of 4 german degrees of hardness would make sense for how your tank has been behaving and the two teaspoons of baking soda we've already put in.

And yes, you should always report pH and KH together when posting here.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Sorry didnt realise that it was german!! i have not added any baking soda yet I will add some tomorrow after I have done the tests, leave it for an hour or so then do another! Thanks for the help!!

Sorry just read the reply from rabbut will test then addd tomorrow and test in 24 hours! Knackered and going to bed!

 

[waterdrop]

Tuppers, if you have time in the morning, read the instructions that came with your KH test kit and verify that the "4.5" and "4.8" that you are reporting to us are in "German degrees of hardness" -- I think they probably are, but its remotely possible the numbers you are giving us are in ppm or mg/L, which would mean a very different thing.

Hope you are refreshed in the morning and no longer "knackered" (can't wait to say that to my 12 year old over here in USA, lol)...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Well good morning to all!! Thanks WD I am kinda refreshed!! But then a 5 year old and 10 month old tend to scupper anything you had planned!!!

I tested the water this morning and got some weird answers!! they are:

PH 7.0 (coming down again!! BUT i added two teaspoons of soda to the tank will retest in 24 after disolved properly)
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.6-3.3 (closer to 3.3 I would say but not quite!!)
Nitrate 110 (strange from 5 to this? wondering I if I tested incorrectly yesterday?)

Added 5ml of ammonia to the tank also that should bring it up to around 4-5ppm

I forgot to test the KH prior to adding the baking soda! SORRY!!

I am using a NUTRAFIN Test kit for my PH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

I am using a Salifert test kit for my KH/Alk here is a web address

[URL="http/www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~act...es~vendor~.html"]http/www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~act...es~vendor~.html[/URL]

This kit I had to run to the LFS as the one I ordered online had not arrived it measures the KH value in dKH. I hope you understand that??? I believe that this is german! and converting this to UK hardness it equates to 5.6-6.0 KH according to this website http/www.cactus2000.de/uk/unit/masswas.shtml

I was wondering should I test my water in the morning and if the Nitrites and Nitrates are still high do a 90% change again and then add some ammonia! Or wait till it has dropped to 0 or not?

 

[waterdrop]

Good morning Tuppers,

Salifert is one of the gold standards in liquid kits and they do indeed provide results in 10ths, and yes, the dKH will be german degrees of hardness, so I'm now satisfied we're on the same page here and its reasonable that you are adding baking soda for your fishless cycle.

Everyone's nitrate tests are notoriously "dodgy" and you need to use a timer to be sure all the little periods where they ask you to shake are honored carefully. One or another of your nitrate tests may have just come out wrong. At any rate, since you are getting nitrites and nitrates then there is nothing wrong with doing a gravel clean type of 90% water change and then recharging with the right amount of ammonia and baking soda (baking soda still being a guess on our part but I might go with 3 teaspoons this time.)

You are getting better in your reporting of results but when reporting your zero ammonia it would be more meaningful to report how many hours it was from when you had recharged it to 5ppm or whatever you are recharging to. During the early days of the "nitrite spike" phase you can recharge only to 3ppm so that not so many nitrites and nitrates will be produced. Once nitrites start to drop to zero within 24 hours, you can start easing back up to 5ppm on the ammonia add.

Hang in there!
~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Well good afternoon to all!!

I tested the water this morning at 11:30 AM and got the following:

PH 8.5-8.0
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 3.3+
Nitrate 110+
dKH Off the scale > 16

So I did a 90% water change and tested the water and then got:

PH 7.5
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.1-0.3
Nitrate 5-10
dKH 6.7

I then added 2.5ml of ammonia which has taken the level slightly higher than what WD has suggested to closer to 4.9 ppm (Sorry WD!!!!). I think I will try and procure a smaller measuring device to add the ammonia with. I have also added three teaspoons of soda to the tank and will test in 24 hours to check results. I will try and get a test on the ammonia done around 4 am when back from work to see if it has all gone by then. oh and I added the ammonia yesterday at 08:30 am and that was a 5ml dose. Iadded the 2.5 ml dose at 12:00 today. Hope this gives a clue to where I currently am at.

Also I am thinking about adding some more plants into the tank! As I only have 5 bunches in there at the mo, would this be advisable or can I add another five bunches? Nothing major just such more decoration for the fishes!!

 

[rabbut]

Looking good. I would not worry about a KH of 16+. At least with that you know the pH won't slide again for many weeks without further attention

Things look to be moving along nicely

On a side note, what is your KH reading from the tap? With a very soft measurement, it may be nessisary to take remedial action to prevent pH slides once the fish are in. This is usualy only needed if KH is lower than 4 in a heavily stocked tank. If you stock moderately it is possible to get away with a KH or arround 2. Any lower and you start pushing your luck with a view of the pH being stable IMO

All the best
Rabbut

EDIT to add. Just read back, KH is about 4.something, so your in the clear on long-term pH stability measures IMO

 

[waterdrop]

Hi tuppers and rabbut!

OK, a lot of things to talk about here: First, tuppers, great reporting, you keep getting better. The only aspect I would question is when you report that you did a 90% change and that you got such and so stats from that, did you wait an hour before testing? Usually its good practice to always wait at least an hour after any water change in order to get more accurate stats that don't reflect the stirred up water. Not a big deal but I good habit I believe.

Also your post does not have the single little line that just restates "Day X", tank volume, type of cycle -- I always think this is good for every stat post that beginners put up here because rabbut and Corleone and MW, oldman and all the other old pros who might come along are looking at so many beginner threads that they could be easily confused and have to look way back up the thread for their basic starting point. Otherwise, much better posting there!

Plants, oh dear, could start a controversey.. My personal feeling is that while plants are wonderful and you definately want them in abundance after you get fish, as a beginner cycler, you don't want to overdo it right now and cause your "fishless cycle" to switch over to being a "silent cycle." Silent Cycle is the term used for cycling a tank that has so many plants that it qualifies for the "planted tank hobby." The principles of the nitrogen cycle don't change of course, but the feedback and the nature of conducting the cycle are different for a silent cycle. You see, the more plants, the more unpredictable the ammonia supply will be for the bacteria (you might dump in 5ppm and test and see a lot and shortly thereafter the plants suck it all up and the bacteria have nothing for a long time and lower their population.) My personal choice would be to stick with at most a "medium" amount of plants in a fishless cycle.

OK, next topic KH: rabbut, good analysis, and I agree. For tuppers it looks like KH/pH adjustments will continue to be a help to the fishless cycle but after the big water change the 4dKH of the tap water should be enough that adjustments will no longer be needed for normal fishkeeping. That will be the best way to go and hopefully it will hold out for a pretty big commnuity.

Very interesting to put some numbers to that problem! (below 4dKH probably requiring crushed coral intervention in the ongong fully stocked tank) I've not thought of us being able to put some numbers to these and accounting for the extra downward pressure on pH of larger stocking. We could probably have give more consistent beginner advice in this area if all of us were using some similar sounding numbers like this.. could we keep thinking about this rabbut? Also, I have more comments about dumping much larger amounts of baking soda in but my post is getting too long already...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[rabbut]

The numbers aren't realy anything exacting for KH, it's more an expreience based thing. It would be good to get some hard numbers out there, but I think it will be hard to find a consensus on it There are supprisingly few keepers out there that keep a routien check on KH levels (I know I don't any more) and thus there are few whom will know what their level in their tank is, let alone able to comment on whether that is the point at which the pH starts to drop off before a waterchange is due... 4dKH is what most of my heavily stocked tanks ran at, and 2 was where adverage stocked tank with lowered pH ran during a few previous projects... I quoted those numbers, as they appeard to work in my situation back when I monitored KH regularly. I'm shure there are some out there that think that is too low, while there are others out there with a lower KH that find their pH stable for a heavy bio-load. I guess it may well be a value that is dependant on set-up

As a rule, on paper at least, you will need a higher KH to buffer the pH with a heavy fish load, as the heavier the load the more acidic waste that load will output. This waste will ultimately start to pull down the pH, as it will "use up" the KH... I have never realy experimented to find out where the "safety point" acctualy is, as that would risk a pH crash with fish there, and that would not be good to say the least... Those are values that I see working for me, there is no expreimenting behind them. I don't think you will find anyone willing to try and find the safety net deliberately either, as when the pH crashes, you usualy loose live stock

All the best
Rabbut