The Start Orf A New Begining!

[waterdrop]

In 6 weeks you might already be cycled and they could just come over and feed the fish. Or, if you are right on the verge of getting fish, you could wait and just let them add ammonia for you, as that's easier in some ways and would relieve you of worrying about whether new fish were doing ok.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Hi guys been doing my testing over the last couple of days, only the ammonia really as the nitrites are still high at 3.3. My ammonia is coming down nicely now from about 1.2 to 0 in around 24 hours. I have been using the calculator for how much ammonia to add to my tank and it says 2.5 ml as when I did a 95% water change I got 40 litres out or just slightly more. This solution only raises my ammonia to just over 1.2. Should I triple the ammount to get it nearer to 5 ppm??

Also I have been considering what I would like to have to stock my tank. I think I may go for a couple of shrimp. I have seen a tank at the LFS with a few in and some neons it looks pretty cool and they all get on quite well. With me not having such a large tank would shrimp be a bad idea? and also I was thinking about getting around 10 neons would this be too many for my tank?

thanks for all the help guys!!

Sorry and girls!!!

 

[waterdrop]

Well, if your nitrites are still staying high and not coming down, whereas your ammonia is dropping pretty predictably, then it sounds like you're in the second phase of fishless cycling. During this early part of the second phase there is really no need to be adding ammonia up at the 5ppm level, although I might double what you've got and try for between 2 and 3ppm. The important thing will be to watch for when the nitrite begins dropping to zero within 24 hours and that is when its important that you begin easing back up to 5ppm ammonia additions once a day after ammonia has dropped to zero. You've got to be up at 5ppm to have a nice, robust set of bacterial colonies for your start.

You will know you are ready for the last week of fishless cycling when you can put in ammonia, measure it as truly 5ppm, and then have both the ammonia and the resulting nitrite(NO2) drop to zero ppm within 12 hours or less. At that point you start your "qualifying" week, where you watch it drop 5ppm within 12 hours for the whole week. If it can do that then you know it hasn't fooled you and you can really trust that its ready to be great for fish.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Thanks wd!!! Can I ask your opion on my first idea for the stocking of the tank? Not sure if I have too much fish their especially seeing as i thought 2-3 shrimp would be better than one! Also do they really need somewhere to hide? Will have to accomodate this some how if so!

Again thanks for the advice!!

 

[waterdrop]

Well, that's a new one 3 shrimp and 10 neons. Its not too much for the tank I don't think but the problem is that shrimp would probably not produce enough ammonia to keep the bacteria up very high and neons are not very good to add in the first 6 months or so. (somebody correct this is you have a different opinion!)

..let's think about it a while...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[rabbut]

I'd happily add neons to a cycled tank. They don't like ammonia or nitrite, so obviosly only add them once you are 100% certain the cycle is complete, but otherwise they should be OK You will occasionally get "blips" from an imature tank that is newly cycled, so you will have to realy be on the ball for the first few months to ensure your tank does not encounter such a blip, and react accordingly if it does.

Shrimp, as WD says, produce very little waste. So little in fact that most people don't count them towards the inch per gallon rule unless they have like 15+ of them

All the best
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, this brings up a good point that I've always felt there is a double thing going on with the common storys that neons (and/or cardinals, as the storys go back and forth about which is more/less hardy -- I've always thought cardinals are more hardy but was told on TFF that some thought things had flip-flopped between the two.. don't really know about that.).. anyway, back to the double thing:

Number one, I just agree with you rabbut that neons are extra sensitive to amm/no2 and get killed a lot by beginners who don't really understand fishless cycling, even people who fishless cycle but aren't very thorough about qualifying their finish. Lots of people see that first day when both ammonia and nitrite drop to zero and just say hurray I'm cycled, without letting it go some more days to be sure. Thats when neons can still get killed.

Number two, I think neons (perhaps cards too) are in some cases coming from batches that are among the over-inbred types these days and are just even more weak as a result.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Basically I agree with rabbut that if you've done a good solid job of fishless cycling, then there should be nothing wrong whatsoever about starting out with neons.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[rabbut]

IME at work, the neons are almost always far worse than cardinals, but we sell more neons... A lot of the weakness in the neons is evidently inbreeding, with them often comming in with all kinds of genetic deformaties (boomeranged, not correctly proportioned, lacking gill plates e.t.c). On the other hand, when we use one of the three other suppliers, we end up with far worse cardinals than neons I honestly believe that the argument on which is hardyest, neons or cardinals? realy depends on their origional source

"Prove" you cycle as WD advises and you should then choose some strong healthy neons, and you should find no issues. Buying genetic inbreds, or not "proving" the cycle on the otherhand...

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Tuppers]

Hi guys well completed my water change this morning near enough to 75%. I have left the tank running for around 2 hours and I now have the following test results.

PH 7.0
Ammonia between 0.6 & 1.2
Nitrite > 3.3
Nitrate > 110

I did the water change as my PH crashed to 6.0 if not 5.5 AGAIN for some reason!!! does this effect the production of good bacteria?

Do I leave the ammonia as is for now and wait till tomorrow morning to top up again? Or do I do it now?

I have been doing this for a while now and I am not sure whether I should be adding ammonia every day or waiting for it to get to 0?? I thought by adding some every day it would feed my bacteria as they need some food. Or as long as there is some in the water then they are ok? It looks like my reading of 0 the other day was a little blip!! That darn tank!!

Thanks for readin!!

 

[waterdrop]

OK Tuppers, I'm feelin like we need a "reset" on this fishless cycle, especially since you want to get it done before the Cuba trip, right?, lol!

So am I right: 60L/16G fishless cycle (not sure what day we are on) non-planted?

You've had 2 pH crashes going all the way down to a pH below 5?

Have you received your KH test kit yet (API or TetraTest?)??

My feeling is that you need to do another 90% water change to maybe help get those nitrates down, and then....

I think you need to add 1 full teaspoon of baking soda (only if we are fishless here) so we can raise up what is obviously going to be a KH of zero or 1 or such. It doesn't matter, we really don't need to wait on the KH kit if you don't have it. Your pH wouldn't be crashing unless you had extremely low KH I'm pretty sure.

Hopefully you'll get the KH kit so we can follow the progress of the baking soda before we have to put more in there. You need to be posting your stats more clearly here on your thread, in a little line that includes Day X, date, time, temp, Amm, NO2, (NO3 if you do it), (KH once you've got it), Amm level after adding etc.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Thanks WD I am getting the KH test kit tomorrow I believe so I will start all the tests above as specified I think I will just start at day one! Not sure what day I am on myself! The tank is planted and I will be adding more either tomorrow or the day after I think as I do like the plants! If its done before the trip its a bonus but I am sure I can get someone to add some ammonia evry other day or so!

Sorry for all the confusion! Cheers for the help. I will do the water change in the morning. Should I do 2 changes if my Nitrates are still high? Or just keeping doing 90% changes till they come down? What level am I looking for here?

 

[waterdrop]

It would be nice to see if a couple of 90% changes would get the nitrates(NO3) down to only 10 or 20 above whatever your tapwater nitrates are. But even if you can't its not that important, so just post up what you get and then keep posting to us on a daily or every day or two basis.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tuppers]

Hi guys well I have completed my water change(s) as per WD recommendations this morning near enough to 90%+. I now have the following test results:

PH 7.0-7.5 (no Baking Soda as yet!!)
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.1
Nitrate 5

I tested my water for all the above and they read the following:

PH 7.0-7.5
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.00 (slight colour change but not enough to make it 5)

I have not received my KH test kit yet but will post as soon as. No Baking Soda as the little one is in bed and I have to wait for her to get up first!! will add later this afternoon. Let me make sure its 1 tea spoon? not table spoon? Do I now add my ammonia to get it up to 5ppm??

Cheers

 

[rabbut]

Well, the baking soda is to raise KH, so the more the merrier realy, within reason... I'd mebe go with 2 tablespoons, but thats just me. I'd expect the pH to go to about 8ish with that, which will indicate suffice KH to stop another crash for a long while

EDIT TO ADD...Sorry, yes, add ammonia to 5ppm

 

[Tuppers]

Hi there just a quick one to add to this forum, I have an Aquaball 2212 that has a lower output of 200 lph is this too much for any fish I want in my tank? bearing in mind when i do a 90% change I only take out just under 40 ltrs meaning that my output will cycle the tank five times an hour off my calculations! The stingray I have filtering at the mo on does upto 100 lph I think will confirm menaing its only 2 tiimes, just wondering if the aquaball would be overkill as a replacement in the long run of things?

Cheers