Wastewater treatment in a multistage process. In the earlier stages nitrite levels are usually quite high. But as the water moves trhough the system they gave been reduced. At the earlier stages where the nitrite it highest the Nitrobacter dominate, but in the later stages when the nitrite levels are much lower, the Nitrospira dominates. So it is true both species are present in great numbers but not in the same place or time during the remediation process/
Similarly, there are more bacteria strains in soils and wastewater dealing with Nitrogen than in our tank biofilters. If one looks at what ammonia oxidizers are found in fresh vs. salt water, there are a greater variety of ammonia oxidizers in fresh water than there are in salt water.
When I first began reading research papers my thinking was the nitrifiers in soil, wastewater and aquariums were the same. I soon learned this they were different. This doesn't mean some strains might be found in all three areas. But which ones dominated was usually different and some were unique to each of the different environments.
Over the years on a variety of sites I have read a lot of misinformation regarding the nitrifying bacteria and now the ammonia oxidizing Archaea as well.
I joined this site in 2004 and had to walk away for a number of years until the ownership/management changed, I returned because of the Scientific Section. i was engaged in discussions about bottled bacteria with most posters claiming they did not work. It was back then that I found Dr. Hovanec and his papers. I even exchanged a few emails with him. At htat tine this forum had a plethora of posts about members who had problems with fishless cycling. The articles on it her were awful. So I offered to redo them. As you can see the three main ones were written by me.
I actually had to create some of the charts etc. because most of what existed at the time was related to fish in cycling which I dislike. After my articles replaced the older ones I began to notice a drop in the posts about stalled cycles. Over time there were very few. I also was, and still am, willing to walk people through doing a fishless cycle step by step. I am able to do a fish in cycle properly and without causing any harm to the fish. I do not do them because of one basic fact. I am not perfect, i do make mistakes. A mistake in a fish in cycle means fish either suffer or die.
Most people have issues doing a fishless cycle for one reason, they are getting advice from multiple sources. Since that advice tends to be different it only helped to confuse people, especially those newer to the hobby. What I told such folks was that they should pick on person to whom they would listen and ignore the rest. That way they would either learn that person knew what they were talking about and the cycle would happen as it should. If the cycled did not go correctly they would at least learn to whom they should not listen.
What I told those who chose to use me as their guide through cycling was not to use prime for nitrite but to add salt. i even did the calculation for them. Nobody ever lost fish and nobody ever need extra time to complete the cycle, The one thing I will not do is walk people through a fish in cycle. I will help folks who get into trouble doing one. Hence the two articles here in rescuing a fish-in cycle gone wild.
I do not mind how you choose to do things if you believe they work for you. What, I do not accept when anybody posts incorrect information. Most of what I know about cycling and the microorganisms involved I learned from PhD microbiologists and from reading peer reviewed published scientific papers. This is why you will see all the paper I reference in my posts. it is also why I am happy to admit i am incorrect in something as long as what somebody state to the contrary thay support with similar evidence. So far you have not done this so i am not willing to accept what you have posted.
The facts are simple. Using a dechlor which also detoxifies ammonia slows down a cycle. It does this because the ammonia is not neutralized, it is temporarily converted to ammonium. The bacferia in our filters are evplved to process ammonia, NH3, and thy do this pretty efficiently. Some of them do not use ammonium, NH4, as they lack receptor for doing so, But others of them do and can use NH4. The problem is they do so less efficiently. because of this it cause a cycle to take longer.
You suggest that Prime helps fiwht nitrite. yet no science exoists to confirm or even expalin this. Here is what Seachem states about this in the FAQ section for Prime:
How does Prime® make a difference in reducing nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime® (when used at elevated levels)
is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however
we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime® they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.
The above is not science it is anecdotal evidence. I can fidn all sorts of science to support the role of chloride in how it deals with nitrite and none at all to syupport the SeaChem claims. But I would suggest that if one slows the rate of ammonia conversion to nitrite this means nitrite is created more slowly and thus also builds up to lower levels. lets not forget that as long as there is detectable ammmonia or nitrite in a tank that the bacteria will be multiplying to handle it. So this would explain why the prime cuctomers reported
theY experienced reduce or eliminate the high death rates . What they could not report was any internal damege the fish may have had which shrotened their lives. Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. Bear in mind SeaChem's goal is to sell their products.
It is why they tell people heir bott;le of spores is better than the real nitrifying bacteria that end up in tanks dose with Stability. Where is the scientific support for this claim. It does not exist. To my knowledge there have been only two major discovereies relating to the mircorganisms dealing with ammonia nad nitrite since Dr. Hovenec and the other scientis who were involved in the reaserch identified. His is not the only name on the ammonia and nitrite papers.
One was the discovery of ammonia oxidizing Archaea on the underside of a rock in a public sawltwater aquarium, The second was the accidental discover in a tank in the basement of a university which belonged to the scientist doing research in the floors above of straims of Nitrospira able to process ammonia straight to nitrate. I have read both of the papers an subsequent one which built on these discoveries. In one of the last Email exchanges I had with Dr. Hovanec he informed me that his One and Only now contains some of the ammonia oxidizing Archaea.
A few summers ago my cish club sponsered a group a kids aged 10-12 involved with a regional 4H club who wanted to get into fish keeping keeping. Their parents were involved. At no cost to them the club set them all up with a 10 gal, tank, all the needed equipment and supplied them with fish and love plants. At the organizational meeting a asked one Q, were we expecting the kids to start by cycoing their tanks which would have waste 1/3 of the summer. The result was I got Swiss Tropicals to donate a cubfilter for each tank which I then cycled in advance so that the kids just dumped the mulm in the bag into the tank and then put in the cycled filter from the bag.. They were told to pour the mulm into the tanks and then to add the filter.
I stopped cycling tanks years ago when I was having to cycle 8 -12 tanks all at the same time. Instead of cycling the tanks, I set up a bio-farm to cycle filters. I was able to do this in 12-14 days. It is alot easier to do this than to cucle that many tanks. This is especially true if all of the tanks will not be stocked at the same time. I dosed the ammonia into the single bio-farm and kept doing so until all the filters wernt into the ir resepective tanks which were stocked within 24 hours of the filters going into them. Towards the end of getting all of the filters cycled I was adding 25+ ppm of ammonia to the farm every day- but not all at once, it was done in multiple smaller amounts 2-3 times.day. I normally used a 40B tank to cycle 12-14 Poret foam cubefilters all at the same time.
I am much more knowledgeable about cycling realated issues than I am about a large number of specific fish or species. I know a lot about the fish I keep or have kept but very little about those I have not done so.
I will repeat this yet one more time. What Dr. Hovanec and Tetra sell is a bottle of living bacteria some of which are Nitrospira. What is in Stability are spores. The nitrifying bacteria in our biofilters do not form spores. Seachem actually lies about things in their info on Stability. They claim lkive bacteria in a bottle need food. This is not true. In the bottle the bacteria are in a state of dormancy. You can read about this on Dr. Tim's site here. Warnoing of yu believe him, then you cannot believe some of what SeaChem claims.
https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/blog/nitrifying-bacteria-arent-human/
SeaChem claims:
Here is what Dr. Tim says and which there is a plethora of science to support.
Is is any wonder that I distrust Satability and what SeaChem states about the actual bacteria we need and will have in pour dfilters in spite of when one adds the wrong things. In the end, the nitrifiiers always colonize.
