Hi All Just Signed Up Lots Of Questions I Hope You Gurus Can Answer

[cl3537]

Hi Guys,
 
My first post here wanted to say hello, I have been reading for a couple of weeks as much as I can various forums and have had a lot of trouble getting definitive answers on many of my questions so I look forward to posting soon.
 
I am looking to setup a Fluval Edge 46L and I have many many questions, like plant choices, suitable algae eaters, a suitable heater for the tank etc.
 
Haven't started even the nitrogen cycling yet but I plan on doing a fishless cycie and I'm hoping someone can give me advice on what the LFS might be able to give me(or sell me) in order to speed it up I want to put fish in the tank for my son sooner than 8 weeks if possible.
 
Best Regards,
Cl3537
 
 
 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

We are happy to help in any way possible.  One of the ways that we can help is actually in donating media to new members.  I'm based in the US, but have donated media to members in the past.  
 
 
 
46L (I assume liters) is fairly small for most algae eaters.  Nerite snails would certainly be suitable.  Some shrimp would also work, but you need to determine your fish choice first, because not all fish are safe with shrimp (or more exactly vice versa).
 
 
Welcome and don't be afraid to ask questions.  Lots of folks will have lots of opinions.  Your job will then be to decide what course of action to take.  Ultimately, it is your tank, and you will be the one looking at it, and looking after it.  

 

[Byron]

A 46 litre tank is small (about 10 gallons), so fish choices will be limited; many of the commonly-seen fish in stores will not last in this small a tank due to their mature size or needing groups, etc.  First question here is, what are your tap water parameters?  Some fish have specific needs in this regard, and when dealing with small dwarf-type species this can be even more important as they are unable to adjust like some of the more common and larger species.  You can ascertain water parameters (GH, KH and pH) from your water supply authority, probably on their website.
 
As to the cycling, you can try a product called Dr. Tim's One and Only, which is available in the US and probably can be shipped into Canada (I live in Canada, and have not seen this in local stores, but try online).  Used according to the directions, with very few initial fish, it supposedly does the job.  There are other reliable products but none of them instantly cycle, they simply speed things up a bit.  Tetra's SafeStart and Seachem's Stability are two known to me.  Are live plants intended?  These greatly help in cycling.  And rather than subject fish to possible poisoning from ammonia and/or nitrite, starting the cycle with some fish food in addition to one of the bacterial supplements can work.
 
Seeding the tank with filter media/substrate from someone else's tank has been suggested, but this is something I would never recommend.  All sorts of disease and pathogens can be introduced into your aquarium, and that is something you do not want, believe me.  There is no point in rushing and risking everything.  Nature takes time, but it works.
 
Byron.

 

[delkimgreen1]

Hi cl3537
 welcome to the forum lots of gurus on here to help us newbees Lol

 

[cl3537]

Thanks so much for the responses so far.
 
I absolutely love this tank, the fish, the shrimp(I'd prefer CRS if I can get them to the ghost shrimp in there), the snail, the plants everything.
My tank will be twice the size of this one(but unfortunately is twice the height, the the length and width are the same).
 
From all I have read this is an overstocked tank but hopefully twice the water will help in mine.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKShUD0Eiw
 
If anyone knows what the plants are in there I'd be thankful for a list. I reocgnize the marimo moss ball but not much else.
 
Upon reading one of the issues I have run into is that striped nerite snail (I don't know if its considered a tiger or zebra) might lay white eggs all over as you can't tell if they are male or female when you buy them. The eggs won't hatch need brackish water, nothing will eat them in a nano tank except loaches that I know of. 
 
Now some will say loaches grow too big, prefer 5 or 6 and need too much room. The kuhli ones as found in that tank  are smaller and if this tank is any example might work just one or a pair like they have done in that tank.
 
Of course I could avoid the whole thing, forget the loaches and try to find horned nerites but I'd still like to find a lovely pattern like the stripes if anyone knows of another species I should consider instead. I wanted a good glass cleaner like the nerites snail in the tank but am open to other suggestions.
 
 
 

 

[cl3537]

Hi Byron,
 
Thanks for the response its a 12 gallon tank but the choice will still be limited.
I was going to try same/similar fish as in the video I posted above.
 
3 Cobra Endlers
3 Fancy Guppies  (might just try just 6-8 endlers or 6-8 fancy guppies instead)
2 Kuhli Loaches
Red Cherry Shrimp 
1 or 2 Nerite Snails (Zebra)
 
I will bring a sample of tank water to my LFS to get tested.
 
I was hoping to do some plants that can handle moderate to low light conditions.  The LED lights in there are not the best for illuminating the whole tank and I don't want to add CO2 or ferts I want a low tech tank so hardy easy to grow low maintenance plants.
 
Not really sure what is in there from the video but Marimo Moss Ball, Anubias, Fern or whatever other things people can tell me are in there.
I kinda like the idea of the Guppy's eating the shrimp babies to keep the population in check and the shrimp eating the algae. Not sure what will eat the Guppy or endler fry though. 
 
 

A 46 litre tank is small (about 10 gallons), so fish choices will be limited; many of the commonly-seen fish in stores will not last in this small a tank due to their mature size or needing groups, etc.  First question here is, what are your tap water parameters?  Some fish have specific needs in this regard, and when dealing with small dwarf-type species this can be even more important as they are unable to adjust like some of the more common and larger species.  You can ascertain water parameters (GH, KH and pH) from your water supply authority, probably on their website.
 
 
>>>> PH average in my area 7.6, range 6.5 - 8.5 will get it tested in LFS next time I do. Water has Average of 86ppm CaCO3 and 8ppm MgCO3 so I think that means GH of 8 - 10, KH = 8-9  Water is medium hardness.
 
I think that is fine for Guppy, Endler
Nerita snails seem fine as well in this range.
 
 
The black Kuhli Loaches may not be a good choice as they prefer slightly acidic (6-6.5) softer water(kh = 3-5) and may grow too large (3") but then again the example tank contradicts this. (I simply have no experience with tolerances)
Cherry Red Shrimp also prefer slightly acidic so perhaps glass/ghost shrimp would be better but they are supposed to be quite hardy.
 
Balancing things there has to be some tolerances as nothing will be totally ideal for any of these species. I guess once I get the water tested I will know more but it looks like I am in the range for these species.
 
As to the cycling, you can try a product called Dr. Tim's One and Only, which is available in the US and probably can be shipped into Canada (I live in Canada, and have not seen this in local stores, but try online).  Used according to the directions, with very few initial fish, it supposedly does the job.  There are other reliable products but none of them instantly cycle, they simply speed things up a bit.  Tetra's SafeStart and Seachem's Stability are two known to me.  Are live plants intended?  These greatly help in cycling.  And rather than subject fish to possible poisoning from ammonia and/or nitrite, starting the cycle with some fish food in addition to one of the bacterial supplements can work.
 
>>> So far I've read the best way is the fishless cycle. Every LFS told me not to bother and just start with a light bioload and let that cycle the tank. But this contradicts what I have read especially the part about adding stuff in a bottle usually being useless and not speeding things up. I am curious what others say on this if the added bacteria truly speed things up or not.
 
 
Seeding the tank with filter media/substrate from someone else's tank has been suggested, but this is something I would never recommend.  All sorts of disease and pathogens can be introduced into your aquarium, and that is something you do not want, believe me.  There is no point in rushing and risking everything.  Nature takes time, but it works.
 
>>> You are the second person today who told me that, the LFS person said the same they never give media to clients for that reason so it looks like wait the 8 weeks doing the fishless Ammonia cycle or try the old "risky" way of a light bioload and add stuff in the bottle. 

Option 1 - Fishless Ammonia cycle and make my impatient 2.5 year old wait 6 - 8 weeks or more with an empty tank.
 
Option 2 - Start with just the 3 Guppy's and add whatever is the best conditioner and bioadditive and test water for Ammonia, Nitrites (0) and Nitrates(<40) for a few months before adding more species.
 
 
Byron.

We are happy to help in any way possible.  One of the ways that we can help is actually in donating media to new members.  I'm based in the US, but have donated media to members in the past.  
 
 
 
46L (I assume liters) is fairly small for most algae eaters.  Nerite snails would certainly be suitable.  Some shrimp would also work, but you need to determine your fish choice first, because not all fish are safe with shrimp (or more exactly vice versa).
 
 
Welcome and don't be afraid to ask questions.  Lots of folks will have lots of opinions.  Your job will then be to decide what course of action to take.  Ultimately, it is your tank, and you will be the one looking at it, and looking after it.  

Thanks so much for the warm welcome.
Still not sure how big a problem the nerite snail eggs will be  given I don't quite understand how to tell if I got a male or female and the eggs will be quite a pain to get rid of without something like the loaches.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Go with Option 1 - make the 2.5 year old wait.  Not because its good for the child, but because its good for the fish.  Option 2 is really not a good plan.  Lots of variables for messing up.  You will learn far more during the time of the fishless cycle, and you can have the fun of heading out to LFS and finding the very best one for your needs.  The closest one may not be the best option, and you won't know unless you visit a bunch...
 
 
A quality fishless cycle will be far less stress for all involved.
 
 
Plants I recognized from the video:
 
Front left corner: Cryptocoryne wendtii - a very unassuming plant.  Low demand, low stress.
The background plants appear to be some sort of an Amazon Sword - Echinodorus bleheri
Front right - Java fern - microsorum pteropus - These need to be tied to decor (wood, stone, etc.) and not planted in the substrate.  If their rhizome is covered, the plant will die.  But these plants are great for low light tanks and are extremely low maintenance.  They will grow new leaves along the rhizome, and they will also grow 'plantlets' on the edge of dying leaves.  These 'plantlets' are things I have allowed to grow on the leaf until they get a decent size, about an inch or two, and then I trim the leaf and attach somewhere else.  Very easy plants...
 
Another group of very easy, low light plants to consider are anubias.  They also need to be tied on to decor, but are very easy to grow.  These just grow along the rhizome, and when you get enough leaves, you can split the rhizome if you choose (be sure to leave at least 3-4 leaves per rhizome, although more is better.  I never split mine until I have about a dozen leaves on each section.  These are fairly slow growing as well.
 
 
 
Anyway, Crypts, java fern and anubias are some of the easiest plants for a beginner.  Low maintenance and low need plants.  

 

[cl3537]

Thanks you got all of that plants that was quick and super helpful.
It will just be simpler for me to do a fishless cycle with the holidays coming up and going away it seems like the best solution.
 
I guess I should try to get some of the plants, plus the tank, the substrate, ammonia and the heater.
 
1) For the substrate it looks like coarse off white sand or fine gravel any ideas?
 
2) I think I need a 50w heater, such mixed reviews on virtually all of them. Eheim Jager 50w, Aqueon Pro 50w, or Hydor 50w any ideas? Seem to be better than the 25w hagen edge ones that match the tank. Tank is 12Gallons(46litres)
 
I have been calling several stores and certainly none will have everything or close to everything I need and some things I may not be able to find easily in Montreal.
I may have to find breeders for the Zebra Nerites, The Cherry Red Shrimp, even the Endlers but I guess I have 2 months to figure that out.
 
 
 
 
 

Go with Option 1 - make the 2.5 year old wait.  Not because its good for the child, but because its good for the fish.  Option 2 is really not a good plan.  Lots of variables for messing up.  You will learn far more during the time of the fishless cycle, and you can have the fun of heading out to LFS and finding the very best one for your needs.  The closest one may not be the best option, and you won't know unless you visit a bunch...
 
 
A quality fishless cycle will be far less stress for all involved.
 
 
Plants I recognized from the video:
 
Front left corner: Cryptocoryne wendtii - a very unassuming plant.  Low demand, low stress.
The background plants appear to be some sort of an Amazon Sword - Echinodorus bleheri
Front right - Java fern - microsorum pteropus - These need to be tied to decor (wood, stone, etc.) and not planted in the substrate.  If their rhizome is covered, the plant will die.  But these plants are great for low light tanks and are extremely low maintenance.  They will grow new leaves along the rhizome, and they will also grow 'plantlets' on the edge of dying leaves.  These 'plantlets' are things I have allowed to grow on the leaf until they get a decent size, about an inch or two, and then I trim the leaf and attach somewhere else.  Very easy plants...
 
Another group of very easy, low light plants to consider are anubias.  They also need to be tied on to decor, but are very easy to grow.  These just grow along the rhizome, and when you get enough leaves, you can split the rhizome if you choose (be sure to leave at least 3-4 leaves per rhizome, although more is better.  I never split mine until I have about a dozen leaves on each section.  These are fairly slow growing as well.
 
 
 
Anyway, Crypts, java fern and anubias are some of the easiest plants for a beginner.  Low maintenance and low need plants.  

 

[Byron]

Hi Byron,
 
Thanks for the response its a 12 gallon tank but the choice will still be limited.
I was going to try same/similar fish as in the video I posted above.
 
3 Cobra Endlers
3 Fancy Guppies  (might just try just 6-8 endlers or 6-8 fancy guppies instead)
2 Kuhli Loaches
Red Cherry Shrimp 
1 or 2 Nerite Snails (Zebra)
 
I will bring a sample of tank water to my LFS to get tested.
 
I was hoping to do some plants that can handle moderate to low light conditions.  The LED lights in there are not the best for illuminating the whole tank and I don't want to add CO2 or ferts I want a low tech tank so hardy easy to grow low maintenance plants.
 
Not really sure what is in there from the video but Marimo Moss Ball, Anubias, Fern or whatever other things people can tell me are in there.
I kinda like the idea of the Guppy's eating the shrimp babies to keep the population in check and the shrimp eating the algae. Not sure what will eat the Guppy or endler fry though.
 

 
I agree with JD on the plants in the tank in the video.  The swords will get large though.  A good plant for smaller tanks is the pygmy chain sword, Helanthium tenellum, if you can find it.  As we're both in Canada, I could send you some for the cost of the postage (would be around $10) but not until warmer weather.  But you may be able to find this plant in stores in Montreal, I would think so, or from local hobbyists (likely is a fish club locally).
 
To the fish mentioned.  All species of loach are shoaling fish and must have a group.  I would not have less than five.  Kuhlii are small and that would work, but here we come to other issues.  They are shy fish, and must have refuge.  There is no where near sufficient hiding places in the video tank, so don't copy that (and obviously he needs more loaches).  Wood is the best for this, and you can buy Malaysian Driftwood which can be full of tunnels and crevices, ideal for such fish.  Without lots of hiding places, and more of them, these fish will be stressed and not healthy long-term.  Also, they are rather nocturnal so they may be largely out of sight during the day when the tank light is on.  A more interesting substrate fish perhaps, thinking of children keeping their interest, would be corydoras catfish.
 
I would personally not mix Endlers and Guppies; while these are closely related, they are distinct species.  A group of Endlers would be better here than a group of guppies.  Males are the most brightly coloured.  All males would be wise, as any mix of male/female will mean spawning regularly, and livebearers produce a lot of fry when they get going.  And the only way to control fry is to remove them, so the question then becomes what will you do with them?  Probably nothing except euthanize, which is not a very nice option.  Males only avoids this.
 
Snails I know little about, but they do help with algae and they eat everything organic including fish poop, so a benefit as this breaks it down faster for the bacteria to handle.  Nothing will keep the glass clean except you.  During the weekly partial water change, clean the inside of the front glass (and sides, up to you) with a sponge-type scraper even if you don't see anything.  Algae you need to have under control, as what snails will eat is minimal.  Plants with lighting and nutrients balanced will achieve this.
 
Now live plants are being intended, I would not do any "cycling" as such.  Ammonia is deadly toxic to all forms of life in excess, and while one can cycle new tanks with ammonia I would not do so when live plants are intended.  Set the tank up, add the plants, and when all is working well add your first few/small fish and use a bacterial supplement as was being discussed earlier.  I never cycle tanks, and haven't for years.  As long as you have lots of plants and fast-growing ones (the chain sword, and floating plants) and go easy on the fish you will be fine.
 
Byron.

 

[cl3537]

 

 

Now live plants are being intended, I would not do any "cycling" as such.  Ammonia is deadly toxic to all forms of life in excess, and while one can cycle new tanks with ammonia I would not do so when live plants are intended.  Set the tank up, add the plants, and when all is working well add your first few/small fish and use a bacterial supplement as was being discussed earlier.  I never cycle tanks, and haven't for years.  As long as you have lots of plants and fast-growing ones (the chain sword, and floating plants) and go easy on the fish you will be fine.
 
Byron.
 

 
Thanks for helping me but now I am not sure what to do. As you can see from the video the tank is sparsly planted and I do want to keep a minnimilist look to the tank so I won't be adding lots of large plants ever and initially I want to keep the plants relatively small. 
Should I just put in the sand, setup the tank, cycle with Ammonia Hydroxide wait till the tank is cycled and then add the plants.
 
or
 
Cycle with the plants in, but don't allow ammonia concentration to be more  than 4 ppm of Ammonia at any one time and wait till it is cycled before adding Fish. (Does anyone know if the Ammonia could kill the plants I intend on Buying (Anubias, Amazon Sword and Java Fern to start)
 
or
 
As you suggest try to buy one or two endlers and put in the plants and don't add Ammonia and buy whatever bacterial supplement my LFS has (probably Nutrafin cycle or the tetra equivalent) I probably won't buy the Fosters supplement as the weather is cold here and it will freeze cross border shipping. 
 
(But then how do I know when it is safe to add the other fish and what bioload the bacteria can handle? If the only Ammonia other than fish food and waste from the one fish?)

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have cycled a tank with java fern in the past, and it works just fine.  The key is to keep the ammonia levels lower than a standard cycle (3ppm).  The recommendation I would have is to cycle with just 1-2ppm ammonia with the plants you want.  The plants you are discussing will be fine at that level of ammonia, and they will actually consume some of the ammonia.  
 
I'd suggest sand for the substrate.  Easily penetrated by the roots of the plants (crypts and swords), and the perfect substrate for corys (I agree with Byron that these are great fish for youngsters... and on sand, you can see them sifting the sand through their gills, which is just super cool to see).
 
Here's a picture of a panda cory doing just that (Note: Not my pic, but one of our former Fish of the Year winners):
 
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:69662]
 
 
 
 
In a tank as small as yours you will be limited in terms of the specie of corydoras you can keep.  A 12 gallon that is more tall than it is long isn't a lot of space for them, and the larger ones will not be happy.   The biggest one I'd suggest would be the panda cories, like the ones mentioned above.  Another option would be a slightly smaller one: Corydoras habrosus (aka... 'salt and pepper' cory).  But, please note these are not the same as the much larger Corydorus paleatus (aka peppered cory).  
 
 
A group of 3-5 Cories (the smaller ones) and a group of 3-5 male endlers, with a selection of shrimp (cherries would be a lovely contrast) will pretty well stock you.  You would need to do fairly large water changes on a regular basis to keep the levels safe.  
 
 
A bit of driftwood would be great regardless of the khulis versus the cories.  Cories also enjoy a bit of shelter to hide out in, and the driftwood would be a great option for that, as well as a wonderful location to add the anubias or java fern.
 
 
 
If it were my tank, I would cycle the tank with the plants and the ammonium hydroxide.  Follow the directions from our cycling article, but lower the dose that is referred to as a 'full' dose to just 1-2 ppm.  I've cycled with as much as 3ppm with java fern successfully, though I wouldn't recommend it to a newbie.  Java fern are very tough plants.  They can handle much more trouble and bounce back much more quickly than many other plants.   I did a salt treatment on a tank for ich once with java fern.  And while the java fern eventually died back, it did not DIE.  The rhizome survived and just regrew from that once the salt was cleared out.  The anubias was completely unaffected (as far as one could see) from the salt treatment.  
 
 
I might consider holding off on adding the crypts until after the cycle is finished.  Crypts have a tendancy to 'melt' when moved from one tank to another, although they also rebound nicely afterwards.  Just them acclimating to the new tank water sometimes causes it.  Its perfectly normal and not a cause for concern.  Just remove the dead and dying leaves and the roots should put out new leaves after about a week or so.

 

[cl3537]

Sounds like a plan, 1 - 2ppm Ammonia with the tough plants only to start.
Will the corydoras eat the nerite snail eggs though? Seems like the loaches will but not sure about the corys.
Will the nutrafin cycle or other products like it really help speed things up?
 
 
 

I have cycled a tank with java fern in the past, and it works just fine.  The key is to keep the ammonia levels lower than a standard cycle (3ppm).  The recommendation I would have is to cycle with just 1-2ppm ammonia with the plants you want.  The plants you are discussing will be fine at that level of ammonia, and they will actually consume some of the ammonia.  
 
I'd suggest sand for the substrate.  Easily penetrated by the roots of the plants (crypts and swords), and the perfect substrate for corys (I agree with Byron that these are great fish for youngsters... and on sand, you can see them sifting the sand through their gills, which is just super cool to see).
 
Here's a picture of a panda cory doing just that (Note: Not my pic, but one of our former Fish of the Year winners):
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a tank as small as yours you will be limited in terms of the specie of corydoras you can keep.  A 12 gallon that is more tall than it is long isn't a lot of space for them, and the larger ones will not be happy.   The biggest one I'd suggest would be the panda cories, like the ones mentioned above.  Another option would be a slightly smaller one: Corydoras habrosus (aka... 'salt and pepper' cory).  But, please note these are not the same as the much larger Corydorus paleatus (aka peppered cory).  
 
 
A group of 3-5 Cories (the smaller ones) and a group of 3-5 male endlers, with a selection of shrimp (cherries would be a lovely contrast) will pretty well stock you.  You would need to do fairly large water changes on a regular basis to keep the levels safe.  
 
 
A bit of driftwood would be great regardless of the khulis versus the cories.  Cories also enjoy a bit of shelter to hide out in, and the driftwood would be a great option for that, as well as a wonderful location to add the anubias or java fern.
 
 
 
If it were my tank, I would cycle the tank with the plants and the ammonium hydroxide.  Follow the directions from our cycling article, but lower the dose that is referred to as a 'full' dose to just 1-2 ppm.  I've cycled with as much as 3ppm with java fern successfully, though I wouldn't recommend it to a newbie.  Java fern are very tough plants.  They can handle much more trouble and bounce back much more quickly than many other plants.   I did a salt treatment on a tank for ich once with java fern.  And while the java fern eventually died back, it did not DIE.  The rhizome survived and just regrew from that once the salt was cleared out.  The anubias was completely unaffected (as far as one could see) from the salt treatment.  
 
 
I might consider holding off on adding the crypts until after the cycle is finished.  Crypts have a tendancy to 'melt' when moved from one tank to another, although they also rebound nicely afterwards.  Just them acclimating to the new tank water sometimes causes it.  Its perfectly normal and not a cause for concern.  Just remove the dead and dying leaves and the roots should put out new leaves after about a week or so.

 

[Byron]

I won't get into arguments about how to "cycle," but I will pick up on a couple of your questions as I suspect there is some inexperience and it is only fair that we explain so you understand.
 
First on your question about bacterial supplements.  Dr. Tim's One and Only will immediately cycle your tank if you follow the directions.  Others have tried this and it worked, and as Dr. Hovanec (the "Dr Tim") is a professional chemist who has made several discoveries in the area of aquatic bacteria, and since no one has to date proven his claim wrong, I would accept it.  All other products speed up the cycling to some degree but they do not instantly cycle.  There are reliable brands, and there are less reliable.  The reliable are Tetra's SafeStart [this is actually the original former formula of Dr. Hovanec] and Seachem's Stability.  But again, these latter "seed" bacteria that quickens the cycling.
 
On the plants and ammonia.  I have never added ammonia to my tanks in over 25 years, and I never would.  With the bacterial supplement and some plants, including fast growing, there is no need to "cycle."  Any container of water to which live creatures are added will cycle, it just happens.  When you use live plants you can safely add a few initial fish with no worries because the plants take up much of the ammonia and the nitrifying bacteria will still establish and get the rest.  Plants remove ammonia faster than bacteria at any time, even in established tanks, the plants are taking up considerably more ammonia than the bacteria.
 
Floating plants are ideal for this, as being at the surface they take up CO2 from the air which is faster than from water, plus there is no shortage of CO2 in air like there is water.  They are closer to the light.  And being fast growing by nature, they use more nutrients including ammonia.  And with the fish we are thinking of here, floating plants are very beneficial.  Which brings me to the video...I thought this was someone else's tank, not yours, sorry if I misunderstood.  But as I pointed out, it needs more to make the fish happy; we must remember that in setting up an aquarium, we are providing a permanent environment for the fish and other creatures, and their needs should prevail.  An aquarium is a living biological system that must be geared for the species if they are to be healthy.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Cories will eat eggs, but I don't know about eating nerite eggs specifically.  I do know that cories will eat cory eggs. 
 
 
 
Byron and I have slightly different philosophies regarding cycling... I'm avidly against fish in cycling whenever possible.  And this is a case where you don't need to do it that way.   Byron is absolutely right about using plants to cycle... it can be very successful, and never show a trace of ammonia or nitrite.  But, generally when this method is used it is used with far more plants, and far faster growing plants.  The plants you are discussing are very slow growers and their uptake of nutrients will be far slower.  As Byron points out, floating plants are great for using excess nitrogen (ammonia/nitrate).  But, we hadn't discussed floating plants, so I didn't see a need to cloud the conversation with them.
 
 
Cycling with plants is slightly different than cycling without plants, but the basics are the same.  Add ammonia, and the ammonia is 'dealt with'.  The means by which it is 'dealt with' is different, but the end result is essentially the same.  In the case of a straight fishless cycle (no plants), one set of bacteria (AOBs) will convert it to nitrite.  Then a second group (NOBs) will convert it to nitrate.  Because this is a two step process, the cycle takes longer, unless you can add populations of both groups of bacteria.  (That's where a product like Dr. Tim's or Tetra SafeStart can be helpful.  Stability, as far as I can tell, do not contain the same strands of bacteria as the other two products.)  Using plants, some of the ammonia will be removed by the plants and converted to 'plant stuff' and is immediately removed from the tank water (whereas the final product of the bacteria - nitrate - will need to be removed by water changes), and some of the ammonia will go through the regular 'bacteria' process.  
 
As long as the ammonia doses are low, the plants will be fine, especially these plants.  I wouldn't ever suggest this with ALL plants, but it works with these plants.  I've done it, it works.  

 

[cl3537]

Dear Byron,
 
What small floating plants would you recommend? (keeping in mind the appeal of the edge is the water goes all the way to the top and allows for viewing from the top)
The youtube video is not mine, I don't even have a tank yet I was going to go out and buy it today.
 
Would this 4 ounces be enough? it seems I can get it in Canada but I am a bit worried it might freeze in shipping it will be as low as -10oC in Montreal the next few days.
http://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001LUOI92/?tag=
 
My LFS has the tetra safestart if the risk of freezing makes shipping impractical in this weather.
 
Should I also get the DrTim's ammonium chloride to test the "cycle" a few days after putting in the Bacteria, once I have put in the Dr. Tim's or just regularly test once the one or two fish are in?
 
 
 

I won't get into arguments about how to "cycle," but I will pick up on a couple of your questions as I suspect there is some inexperience and it is only fair that we explain so you understand.
 
First on your question about bacterial supplements.  Dr. Tim's One and Only will immediately cycle your tank if you follow the directions.
 
 
I have read the debate's on the product and my take is that  I am certainly willing to try it but we are going to -10o Celsius here in Montreal shortly and I am not sure how I could import it even if I wasn't worried about the weather.  Others have tried this and it worked, and as Dr. Hovanec (the "Dr Tim") is a professional chemist who has made several discoveries in the area of aquatic bacteria, and since no one has to date proven his claim wrong, I would accept it.  All other products speed up the cycling to some degree but they do not instantly cycle.
 
 
 Others have tried this and it worked, and as Dr. Hovanec (the "Dr Tim") is a professional chemist who has made several discoveries in the area of aquatic bacteria, and since no one has to date proven his claim wrong, I would accept it.  All other products speed up the cycling to some degree but they do not instantly cycle.  There are reliable brands, and there are less reliable.  The reliable are Tetra's SafeStart [this is actually the original former formula of Dr. Hovanec] and Seachem's Stability.  But again, these latter "seed" bacteria that quickens the cycling.
 
 
 
 
 Others have tried this and it worked, and as Dr. Hovanec (the "Dr Tim") is a professional chemist who has made several discoveries in the area of aquatic bacteria, and since no one has to date proven his claim wrong, I would accept it.  All other products speed up the cycling to some degree but they do not instantly cycle.
 
 
 Others have tried this and it worked, and as Dr. Hovanec (the "Dr Tim") is a professional chemist who has made several discoveries in the area of aquatic bacteria, and since no one has to date proven his claim wrong, I would accept it.  All other products speed up the cycling to some degree but they do not instantly cycle.  There are reliable brands, and there are less reliable.  The reliable are Tetra's SafeStart [this is actually the original former formula of Dr. Hovanec] and Seachem's Stability.  But again, these latter "seed" bacteria that quickens the cycling.
 
On the plants and ammonia.  I have never added ammonia to my tanks in over 25 years, and I never would.  With the bacterial supplement and some plants, including fast growing, there is no need to "cycle."  Any container of water to which live creatures are added will cycle, it just happens.  When you use live plants you can safely add a few initial fish with no worries because the plants take up much of the ammonia and the nitrifying bacteria will still establish and get the rest.  Plants remove ammonia faster than bacteria at any time, even in established tanks, the plants are taking up considerably more ammonia than the bacteria.
 
Floating plants are ideal for this, as being at the surface they take up CO2 from the air which is faster than from water, plus there is no shortage of CO2 in air like there is water.  They are closer to the light.  And being fast growing by nature, they use more nutrients including ammonia.  And with the fish we are thinking of here, floating plants are very beneficial.  Which brings me to the video...I thought this was someone else's tank, not yours, sorry if I misunderstood.  But as I pointed out, it needs more to make the fish happy; we must remember that in setting up an aquarium, we are providing a permanent environment for the fish and other creatures, and their needs should prevail.  An aquarium is a living biological system that must be geared for the species if they are to be healthy.
 
Byron.