Hi All Just Signed Up Lots Of Questions I Hope You Gurus Can Answer

[cl3537]

Just wanted to say Welcome to TFF Jordan. You have certainly been encircled in the throng here already, well done. This thread reads like a science paper! I would say one thing about floating plants, as a previous fluval 46L setup owner, I wouldn't recommend them. They may not get enough co2 and will die pretty quickly. I also found them to encourage algal growthat the water line, that may have been down to a mistake. On my part of course. Good luck. With your new hobby. As for stocking, endlers are a lovely site in one of these tanks, I highly recommend them. An alternative to the nerite snail, is the assasin snail, small snail that will kill all other snails except other assasins of course. Plus they can survive on algae pellets/wafers and left over fish food.
I have also used Dr Tim's, and it's a very. Good way to cycle a tank, just for future reference. Good luck x

 
Hi LilyRose,

Thank-you for the warm welcome. I won't be putting in floating plants in, floating leaves tend to  stick to the top of the tank when it is full and then rot, I think it isn't practical if I want to keep the water level full which I do.
 
What kind of Endlers would you say are the most beautiful?
 
I have been flip flopping on stocking everyday with almost every "main" fish being ill advised. 
 
1) I am thinking 6 Rummynose Tetras, 4-6 Panda Corys and 1 Bolivian Ram.
2) Another option 6 Harlequin Rasboras and 1 Betta and maybe 4 - 6 Corydoras too.
3) Another option 6 Guppy or Endlers(probably hybrids anyway) 4 - 6 Corydoras and 1 Honey or Dwarf Gourami
 
Of course I bet I am going to be told almost every combination I've listed above is probably overstocked or ill advised.

 

[cl3537]

 

1) I am using the reliable API master kit expiring in December 2018

 
Unless you test your kit against a known reference source you can't know how reliable it is.  I tested my API kit against a known reference source and the ammonia test was only reading about half the actual value.  Others more commonly report that theirs records too much ammonia.  It's not that great a kit - cheap and easy to use, sure, but not as reliable as people assume.
 

Well the chemist in me tells me you are definitely correct. If I was still working at a University I would make up some Ammonia standards and then create a calibration line using a UV Colorimeter then measure the tank water using the Colorimeter.
 
However I did use  5% ammonia(called the company for confirmation and precision) and diluted it down precisely to add ~1ppm to my tank and that was the reading I got.
I can't speak for others but within reading error of the API kit which could be as much as +/- half the difference between the value you think it is and the next highest one I would say its been pretty reliable.

 

[LilyRose Tank]

Hi there. There is always a huge amount of choice in this hobby, which is why many hobbits jump to having several tanks in a very short space of time, lol, me included in the past. As your tank is a 46L aim for small or micro fish. Red black bar endlers are a beautiful little fish, full of character and are quite brightly coloured in the males, the females are a drab grey in comparison and you don't want a house full of unsellable endlers so keep to the males. A Betta is a beautiful fish must as a rule MUST be kept on its own,also needs to get to water surface as it has a labyrinth organ to breathe oxygen directly from water surface and as you want the water level up against glass so probably not the wisest choice right now until you have more experience. I personally would have twenty tanks just for Bettas if I could, but my hubby would probably divorce me. A pair of honey guorami would be stressed in a tank so small. I have kept one gold ram in a 46L without difficulty, but others say this tank is not big enough for a ram of any sort as the footprint must be a minimum of two foot. In a small show tank like this, colour is really the only way to go. A nice group of colourful small fish will be fab to look at especially if having plants. Colours that clash with green is always a good idea, which is why I have red black bar endlers in my two foot tank. You are limited to algae eaters in such a small tank, however I would recommend a Otocilinius they stay small and munch well in a small aquarium. I have also had one Bristlenose plec in this size aquarium, although I was frowned upon. Snails are a nice addition especially if you can get one to fit in with your colour scheme. For example there is a reddish terracotta nerite that looks lovely in with the Reds. If you want a show fish, pick one fish that grows no bigger than two inches. A red male platy I have found will highlight colours from a red black bar endler. I am not suggesting you put all of these fish in this tank, just some suggestions. I can't remember the sizes of harlequin rasboras, although I remember they are little, also rummynose tetra also look fab in shoals of say 8 another red colour scheme variant if you like. Panda Cory's are a fab little cory and don't grow bigger than 1.-2 inches. But you wouldn't be able to have a shoal of cory and a shoal of something else as it may well be overstocked. So my idea would be either a shoal of endlers/rummynose tetra/harlequin rasboras + one show fish+ an algae eater. Also research the environments these fish come from to see if they have compatible environments. They will do better if they are all from the same area of the world. I have panda cory, Oto, and Bristlenose plec with re black bar endlers in a larger tank 90L and they do great together good luck in your stocking, it's always a heck of a job to choose. You'll have multiple tanks in no time lol

http/gallery.endlers1.com/images/G-N-BB3.jpg

 

[daizeUK]

Great to have another chemist on the forums!     A belated welcome aboard!  As you're probably aware by now, fishless cycling is quite fun and intriguing for anyone who likes a bit of chemistry!
 
Your ammonia test sounds good then.  I was thinking that your nitrite test might be faulty but I haven't heard as many stories of people having problems with nitrite tests as they do with the ammonia ones.  The API nitrite kit is usually fairly reliable as far as I know.
 
I didn't honestly believe that a small handful of plants could process 0.75ppm of ammonia in 24 hours.  I've certainly never seen that kind of uptake.

 

[Byron]

 

 

 
No, which is to say, I know of those she cites, but when I am satisfied of the data I don't tend to dig further, and no one has yet (to my knowledge) proven this wrong.  In the linked Wikipedia article of Diana that eaglesaquarium provided, she mentions 33 studies and gives some of the references.  There may be more in her book (which I have).

 
Well as she writes:
 
"Although plants can use nitrite as an N source, the pertinent question for hobbyists is - Do aquatic plants remove the toxic nitrite before the non-toxic nitrate? I could not find enough studies in the scientific literature to state conclusively that they do. However, the chemical reduction of nitrites to ammonium requires less of the plant’s energy than the chemical reduction of nitrates to ammonium. (A plant must convert both nitrites and nitrates to ammonium before it can use them to make its proteins.) Thus, it is not surprising that when Spirodela oligorrhiza was grown in media containing both nitrate and nitrite, it preferred nitrite (Fig. 3)."
 
That is far from clear and as stated no references were found to definitive prove the uptake of nitrite by plants and in what concentration.
 

May have misunderstood you, but I thought you were asking me for studies on the ammonium uptake by plants as their preferred nitrogen source, not nitrite.
 
In post #41 you mention plants having to go through nitrite to convert nitrate to ammonium...I am not aware this is the case, at least not with aquatic plants.  And the linked article is again on terrestrial plants in soil.  I don't think Diana is suggesting that, unless I am misunderstanding her.
 
Byron.

 

[Byron]

I have been flip flopping on stocking everyday with almost every "main" fish being ill advised. 
 
1) I am thinking 6 Rummynose Tetras, 4-6 Panda Corys and 1 Bolivian Ram.
2) Another option 6 Harlequin Rasboras and 1 Betta and maybe 4 - 6 Corydoras too.
3) Another option 6 Guppy or Endlers(probably hybrids anyway) 4 - 6 Corydoras and 1 Honey or Dwarf Gourami
 
Of course I bet I am going to be told almost every combination I've listed above is probably overstocked or ill advised
 

From earlier posts, this is only a 46 litre aquarium, which is around 12 gallons, so yes, there are issues with some of these fish.  Before that, GH is around 8-10 dGH (pH is around 7 or low 7's) so that gives you a fair bit of flexibility, avoiding the extremes.  Now to your combinations.
 
Option 1 has three issues.  First, I would not house a Bolivian Ram in this small a tank.  While not an active swimmer by any standard, it does attain 4 inches and like to poke around, and this fish would dwarf a small tank aside from other considerations.  Second, up the corys to no less than 5 or preferably 6.  This species in particular does spend a lot of time together; I have 15 or so cory species presently, and this is one of the tightest shoaling ones.  It also like cooler water (given it origin in the Peruvian Andes) which here means 77F is the upper limit; around 74-75F would be fine.  And it also like water current, more than any other species I have housed, so that has an impact on tankmates, and in a small tank this will be an issue.  Third is that rummynose should be in larger groups; I would aim for at least 12 or preferably more, and of course that is not suitable here.  They also like to swim lengthwise, so more space (3-foot tank is about minimum) is needed.
 
Option 2, you need to up the rasbora.  These species (the common three in Trigonostigma) need a few more to be happy; I aim for 9+.  Rather than the Harlequin (T. heteromorpha), the other two would be better in this small a tank, either T. hengeli (my personal favourite) or T. espei.  And I would forget a Betta with anything in so small a space, as someone else mentioned.  Betta really are not community fish...though I'm sure others will say yes they are...but they really are not.  The trouble works both ways; an individual Betta may take a dislike to other fish (I had one that easily ate neons many years ago), or the other smaller fish find the Betta's fins too much of a temptation; most small shoaling fish will or may fin nip when presented with such a temptation in so small a space (the tank size does affect this).
 
Option 3, I would forget Dwarf Gourami on health possibilities, and ion spite of the name it would fare better in more space especially with other fish.  The Honey  is better here, but it would like more peaceful tankmates, such as the rasbora.  Or one of the dwarf rasbora species in Boraras perhaps.
 
Byron.

 

[Byron]

I won't be putting in floating plants in, floating leaves tend to  stick to the top of the tank when it is full and then rot, I think it isn't practical if I want to keep the water level full which I do.
 

 
This is a bit confusing...not sure I follow.  My tanks are filled up to the frame (so no "space" is visible) and I have floating plants in all of them.  There must be a space between the water surface and the tank cover glass, as this is crucial to a gas exchange, plus if you intend some fish like corys or anabantids they must be able to "breathe" air.

 

[cl3537]

Great to have another chemist on the forums!  

  A belated welcome aboard!  As you're probably aware by now, fishless cycling is quite fun and intriguing for anyone who likes a bit of chemistry!
 
Your ammonia test sounds good then.  I was thinking that your nitrite test might be faulty but I haven't heard as many stories of people having problems with nitrite tests as they do with the ammonia ones.  The API nitrite kit is usually fairly reliable as far as I know.
 
I didn't honestly believe that a small handful of plants could process 0.75ppm of ammonia in 24 hours.  I've certainly never seen that kind of uptake.

 
Well the tank went to 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite yesterday morning. Against advice I decided to "test" the tank again last night adding 0.5ppm of Ammonia and turned all lights off in the room. 10 hours later  the Ammonia is gone and I now see 0.25ppm Nitrite so it looks like the Bacteria have kicked in and TSS sped things up considerably.

The trouble with adding Ammonia to just plants and not waiting long enough (and testing) as I did before adding the TSS is you can't be sure if its the plants or the bacteria that are consuming the Ammonia. 
I probably would have missed the Nitrite if I hadn't tested this morning as opposed to in the evening like I usually do.
 
I am considering whether I should slowly increase the dose of Ammonia (1- 2ppm) to enhance the cycle or just wait for 0 NH3 and 0 NO2 (by this evening) and stop increasing the bacteria now, knowing that my tank can readily process 0.5 - 1ppm of Ammonia already quite quickly.

 

[cl3537]

 

I won't be putting in floating plants in, floating leaves tend to  stick to the top of the tank when it is full and then rot, I think it isn't practical if I want to keep the water level full which I do.
 

 
This is a bit confusing...not sure I follow.  My tanks are filled up to the frame (so no "space" is visible) and I have floating plants in all of them.  There must be a space between the water surface and the tank cover glass, as this is crucial to a gas exchange, plus if you intend some fish like corys or anabantids they must be able to "breathe" air.
 

 
This picture should make this clear, there is no waterline, when full, the water touches the glass at the top. Air bubbles at the top need to be removed using a magnetic glass cleaner.
The cover is vented and the opening under the cover is only 7 inches by 5 inches and the air/water exchanges occur there.
 
That is why floating plants are not advisable both for aesthetic reasons and that they can get stuck onto the top glass and rot.
 
However on the issue of Anabatids like Gourami and Betta I've seen a few too many examples to fully discount their ability to find the middle opening for air. 

 

[cl3537]

Thank-you for  informative and detailed post it does give me a lot to think about in my stocking plan and I can benefit greatly from your extensive experience.
I think I should relist  the constraints which are numerous, at the end of this process I may not take the "safe" stocking advice 100% but I'd like to minimize risks while still keeping at least one   "centre show" fish and as much color interest (red) as possible. 
 
pH of my tap water is 8.0 consistently No Ammonia or Nitrates and within the range of 8 - 10 for hardness.
Tank Dimensions are 12 Gallons (46L) Width 10.5" Length 17.5" Height 17"
I have a Eheim 50w heater currently at 80 degrees Fahrenheit and it has been steady for a week but I can certainly change it at will.
 
Flow at the top can be adjusted from Strong (it can blow my mossballs and other plants around at all 4 corners) to much less. The stock filter It is a beefed up Aquaclear 20 so I'd say the flow and circulation is pretty good despite the tall design.
 
Rather than go over my options I'd be interested in what you and others would suggest for a complete stocklist. It may be easier than my proposals as the constraints I am working with are severely limited and nothing will be "perfect" and perhaps your more experienced ideas on the balance between risk and interest will be better than what I can come up with. 
 
 
Option 1 has three issues.  First, I would not house a Bolivian Ram in this small a tank.  While not an active swimmer by any standard, it does attain 4 inches and like to poke around, and this fish would dwarf a small tank aside from other considerations.  Second, up the corys to no less than 5 or preferably 6.  This species in particular does spend a lot of time together; I have 15 or so cory species presently, and this is one of the tightest shoaling ones.  It also like cooler water (given it origin in the Peruvian Andes) which here means 77F is the upper limit; around 74-75F would be fine.  And it also like water current, more than any other species I have housed, so that has an impact on tankmates, and in a small tank this will be an issue.  Third is that rummynose should be in larger groups; I would aim for at least 12 or preferably more, and of course that is not suitable here.  They also like to swim lengthwise, so more space (3-foot tank is about minimum) is needed.
 
I chose the panda corydoras for their ability to "clean up " the bottom a bit and to create more interest for my 2.5 year old son as previously suggested. Also they are relatively small both in bioload and requirement for space. I thought BRs only went to about ~3 inches but I guess even so they will outgrow the tank and it might be pushing it a bit.. I have also considered RCS and Glass or Amano Shrimp and some sort of snails as well for the "Cleaning" task so depending upon what is uptop the corydoras are not a must in any plan.
 
 
 
 
Option 2, you need to up the rasbora.  These species (the common three in Trigonostigma) need a few more to be happy; I aim for 9+.  Rather than the Harlequin (T. heteromorpha), the other two would be better in this small a tank, either T. hengeli (my personal favourite) or T. espei.  And I would forget a Betta with anything in so small a space, as someone else mentioned.  Betta really are not community fish...though I'm sure others will say yes they are...but they really are not.  The trouble works both ways; an individual Betta may take a dislike to other fish (I had one that easily ate neons many years ago), or the other smaller fish find the Betta's fins too much of a temptation; most small shoaling fish will or may fin nip when presented with such a temptation in so small a space (the tank size does affect this).
 
I would categorize the Betta as the highest risk, for several reasons including it not liking the small opening to get air and the higher current at that area so I will rule it out as an option for now even though I have seen examples that seemed successful (for how long was not stated).
 
 
Option 3, I would forget Dwarf Gourami on health possibilities, and ion spite of the name it would fare better in more space especially with other fish.  The Honey  is better here, but it would like more peaceful tankmates, such as the rasbora.  Or one of the dwarf rasbora species in Boraras perhaps.
 
Any Rasbora Boraras that are okay with Hard Alkaline Water?
 
Byron.
 

 

[cl3537]

Thanks LilyRose,
 
I hadn't thought of Platy's for a while a red wag platy might be a nice "show" fish.
Red Black Bar Endlers would also go nicely with them.
 
Do you have a suggestion for a full stock list including the red platy and Black Bar Endlers? Do you think I could add a Red Honey Gourami into the mix?
 
If I was going to do a complete stock, perhaps Red Cherry Shrimp, 1 Honey Gourami, 6 Black Bar Endlers and 1 or 2  Red WagTail Platy?
 

Hi there. There is always a huge amount of choice in this hobby, which is why many hobbits jump to having several tanks in a very short space of time, lol, me included in the past. As your tank is a 46L aim for small or micro fish. Red black bar endlers are a beautiful little fish, full of character and are quite brightly coloured in the males, the females are a drab grey in comparison and you don't want a house full of unsellable endlers so keep to the males. A Betta is a beautiful fish must as a rule MUST be kept on its own,also needs to get to water surface as it has a labyrinth organ to breathe oxygen directly from water surface and as you want the water level up against glass so probably not the wisest choice right now until you have more experience. I personally would have twenty tanks just for Bettas if I could, but my hubby would probably divorce me. A pair of honey guorami would be stressed in a tank so small. I have kept one gold ram in a 46L without difficulty, but others say this tank is not big enough for a ram of any sort as the footprint must be a minimum of two foot. In a small show tank like this, colour is really the only way to go. A nice group of colourful small fish will be fab to look at especially if having plants. Colours that clash with green is always a good idea, which is why I have red black bar endlers in my two foot tank. You are limited to algae eaters in such a small tank, however I would recommend a Otocilinius they stay small and munch well in a small aquarium. I have also had one Bristlenose plec in this size aquarium, although I was frowned upon. Snails are a nice addition especially if you can get one to fit in with your colour scheme. For example there is a reddish terracotta nerite that looks lovely in with the Reds. If you want a show fish, pick one fish that grows no bigger than two inches. A red male platy I have found will highlight colours from a red black bar endler. I am not suggesting you put all of these fish in this tank, just some suggestions. I can't remember the sizes of harlequin rasboras, although I remember they are little, also rummynose tetra also look fab in shoals of say 8 another red colour scheme variant if you like. Panda Cory's are a fab little cory and don't grow bigger than 1.-2 inches. But you wouldn't be able to have a shoal of cory and a shoal of something else as it may well be overstocked. So my idea would be either a shoal of endlers/rummynose tetra/harlequin rasboras + one show fish+ an algae eater. Also research the environments these fish come from to see if they have compatible environments. They will do better if they are all from the same area of the world. I have panda cory, Oto, and Bristlenose plec with re black bar endlers in a larger tank 90L and they do great together good luck in your stocking, it's always a heck of a job to choose. You'll have multiple tanks in no time lol

http/gallery.endlers1.com/images/G-N-BB3.jpg

 

[Byron]

I chose the panda corydoras for their ability to "clean up " the bottom a bit and to create more interest for my 2.5 year old son as previously suggested. Also they are relatively small both in bioload and requirement for space. I thought BRs only went to about ~3 inches but I guess even so they will outgrow the tank and it might be pushing it a bit.. I have also considered RCS and Glass or Amano Shrimp and some sort of snails as well for the "Cleaning" task so depending upon what is uptop the corydoras are not a must in any plan.
 

 
It is not the corys but the species that I was commenting on.  There are many species suitable, and more-so than panda.  If you lower the temp and create some current, panda corys would be fine.  But then you are limiting other fish...the ram for example would not be happy in this--not meaning a ram is OK anyway as previously detailed, just pointing out that each fish species must be considered with regard to their own requirements and needs.
 
Corys will not "clean" up anything.  They need their own specialized food (sinking types) and while they may forage for tid-bits of uneaten food, they are not good scavengers as are snails (these are the best) or even shrimp.  Snails eat everything organic (dead), including fish excrement, which breaks it down faster for the various bacteria to handle.
 

Any Rasbora Boraras that are okay with Hard Alkaline Water?
 

No.  But if the GH is around 8-10 dGH this is not too hard, though it would be better lower I admit.  If the pH is really 8, I wouldn't go this route.
 
I don't really like to suggest fish to others, as the aquarium should be yours, not mine, and if you don't happen to like what is in it, you won't be happy.  I prefer to point out issues when you mention species.  Something we must all remind ourselves of regularly, is that any aquarium is the permanent home for living creatures, first and foremost, and if they are not going to be "happy" together, it will never be truly successful.
 
"Show fish" was mentioned, and this is my point.  This really doesn't work in so small a space.  Small tanks work better and appear more natural and interesting if they have small fish.
 
Fish grow continually, unlike us for example, and they require adequate space throughout their lives.  The relationship of a fish to its environment is far greater than with any terrestrial animal.  The fish's physiology is affected by everything in the water, from the parameters to nitrogen to oxygen and CO2 to the aquascaping and of course other fish.  The close confines of any aquarium make this even more crucial to the fish's health.

 

[LilyRose Tank]

Thanks LilyRose,
 
I hadn't thought of Platy's for a while a red wag platy might be a nice "show" fish.
Red Black Bar Endlers would also go nicely with them.
 
Do you have a suggestion for a full stock list including the red platy and Black Bar Endlers? Do you think I could add a Red Honey Gourami into the mix?
 
If I was going to do a complete stock, perhaps Red Cherry Shrimp, 1 Honey Gourami, 6 Black Bar Endlers and 1 or 2  Red WagTail Platy?
 

Hi there. There is always a huge amount of choice in this hobby, which is why many hobbits jump to having several tanks in a very short space of time, lol, me included in the past. As your tank is a 46L aim for small or micro fish. Red black bar endlers are a beautiful little fish, full of character and are quite brightly coloured in the males, the females are a drab grey in comparison and you don't want a house full of unsellable endlers so keep to the males. A Betta is a beautiful fish must as a rule MUST be kept on its own,also needs to get to water surface as it has a labyrinth organ to breathe oxygen directly from water surface and as you want the water level up against glass so probably not the wisest choice right now until you have more experience. I personally would have twenty tanks just for Bettas if I could, but my hubby would probably divorce me. A pair of honey guorami would be stressed in a tank so small. I have kept one gold ram in a 46L without difficulty, but others say this tank is not big enough for a ram of any sort as the footprint must be a minimum of two foot. In a small show tank like this, colour is really the only way to go. A nice group of colourful small fish will be fab to look at especially if having plants. Colours that clash with green is always a good idea, which is why I have red black bar endlers in my two foot tank. You are limited to algae eaters in such a small tank, however I would recommend a Otocilinius they stay small and munch well in a small aquarium. I have also had one Bristlenose plec in this size aquarium, although I was frowned upon. Snails are a nice addition especially if you can get one to fit in with your colour scheme. For example there is a reddish terracotta nerite that looks lovely in with the Reds. If you want a show fish, pick one fish that grows no bigger than two inches. A red male platy I have found will highlight colours from a red black bar endler. I am not suggesting you put all of these fish in this tank, just some suggestions. I can't remember the sizes of harlequin rasboras, although I remember they are little, also rummynose tetra also look fab in shoals of say 8 another red colour scheme variant if you like. Panda Cory's are a fab little cory and don't grow bigger than 1.-2 inches. But you wouldn't be able to have a shoal of cory and a shoal of something else as it may well be overstocked. So my idea would be either a shoal of endlers/rummynose tetra/harlequin rasboras + one show fish+ an algae eater. Also research the environments these fish come from to see if they have compatible environments. They will do better if they are all from the same area of the world. I have panda cory, Oto, and Bristlenose plec with re black bar endlers in a larger tank 90L and they do great together good luck in your stocking, it's always a heck of a job to choose. You'll have multiple tanks in no time lolhttp/gallery.endlers1.com/images/G-N-BB3.jpg

As I said, I think a honey guorami needs more room than a 46L tank. Technically so do platy fish need more room. I think the Red cherry shrimp, red black bar endlers are a good mix, plus a nice snail would be grand. So say 6 RCS, 8 red Black Bar endlers and a snail would be a good start. I understand you want to put full stocking in, in one go technically a full stock of ten body inches is a full stock. I know some say inches of fish rule isn't accurate and sometimes it isn't, but for a beginner it's a good start. The red black bar endlers only grow to just under an inch each, and RcS need a temp of 22-26 I would personally be really tempted to put a red platy in just for variety ( don't shoot me) as the males only get to about two inches in length....please make sure you know how to sex a platy as not all LFS employees know this, shamefull I know. The platy will look like a miniature red goldfish and may keep your little one happy.