Hi All Just Signed Up Lots Of Questions I Hope You Gurus Can Answer

[Byron]

Dear Byron,
What small floating plants would you recommend? (keeping in mind the appeal of the edge is the water goes all the way to the top and allows for viewing from the top)
The youtube video is not mine, I don't even have a tank yet I was going to go out and buy it today.
 
Would this 4 ounces be enough? it seems I can get it in Canada but I am a bit worried it might freeze in shipping it will be as low as -10oC in Montreal the next few days.
http/www.amazon.ca...keywords=drtims
 
My LFS has the tetra safestart if the risk of freezing makes shipping impractical in this weather.
 
Should I also get the DrTim's ammonium chloride to test the "cycle" a few days after putting in the Bacteria, once I have put in the Dr. Tim's or just regularly test once the one or two fish are in?
 

 
First, I agree with what eaglesaquarium posted, just so no one thinks we are at opposite ends or anything.  I just like to do it simpler, and for me that is with plants, but fast-growing are essential and very few initial fish.  It is impossible to detect ammonia or nitrite with test kits if this is done correctly.
 
Floating plants I particularly like are Water Sprite (Ceratopteris cornuta, the true floating species), Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes), and Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum).  The only caution with the Frogbit is one has to make sure it is the tropical species; there are two temperate climate species and I got stuck with one of them from a local store, and while it grows OK generally it does suffer a bit from the continual tropical temperature.  Water Sprite is about ideal as a superb floating plant; I bought one plant back in the 1990's and I have several plants in a couple tanks today even though I toss out plants every water change.  Other options are some of the stem plants; Brazilian Pennywort (Hydrocotyl leucocephala) is my favourite as it does very well with moderate light even if grown rooted as a stem plant,  Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) can work well.  And then there are smaller plants such as Salvinia and the tiny duckweed which some consider a weed; Salvinia is quite attractive but it is small, and thus the roots don't provide the interest for fish that the other plants will.
 
I assume there will be a cover on the tank?  This is important, as fish will mump and if the water is anywhere close to the top this occurs esp during darkness.  Also the evaporation of tank water into the room is considerable when tanks are heated.  And dust gets in the water, plus it is easy for other substances to get accidentally dumped in.
 
Freezing weather is a risk with liquids in transit, so I would here go with the SafeStart.  Follow the directions.  It is quite true that Stability is different bacteria, but it will work in my experience.  But given the choice I would use the SafeStart if you can't get the Dr. Tim's.  On the different products, Dr. Hovanec also tested several and found that even those with all the wrong bacteria did quicken the cycling, though not by all that much.  He surmised that the injection of any form of bacteria seems to jumpstart the nitrifying species.  I did have a link to his paper on this somewhere, though its been a while since I read it and I may have lost it.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

...On the different products, Dr. Hovanec also tested several and found that even those with all the wrong bacteria did quicken the cycling, though not by all that much.  He surmised that the injection of any form of bacteria seems to jumpstart the nitrifying species.  I did have a link to his paper on this somewhere, though its been a while since I read it and I may have lost it.
 
 
Byron.

 
 
Despite the fear of causing paralysis by analysis to our newest member, I would be interested in that paper, if you ever manage to find it.  If you do, please feel free to send me a link or attachment via PM.  
 
Thanks.

 

[Byron]

 

...On the different products, Dr. Hovanec also tested several and found that even those with all the wrong bacteria did quicken the cycling, though not by all that much.  He surmised that the injection of any form of bacteria seems to jumpstart the nitrifying species.  I did have a link to his paper on this somewhere, though its been a while since I read it and I may have lost it.
 
 
Byron.

 
 
Despite the fear of causing paralysis by analysis to our newest member, I would be interested in that paper, if you ever manage to find it.  If you do, please feel free to send me a link or attachment via PM.  
 
Thanks.
 

 
All I can find now is a bookmark to his site which has three papers listed.  You can get the full text.  
http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/Library_Presentations/SciencePapers/SciencePapers.html
 
I am recalling that his comments on testing the various products may have come at the end of one of the papers.  I do remember he specifically mentioned Nutrafin's Cycle as not being the bacteria at all, yet it did take a couple of days off the cycling time.
 
If I come across anything further, I'll post.  I thought I had several of his articles bookmarked, but now only this one...could be that the links ceased working and I deleted them.  It was some 3 years back I was digging into this topic.
 
Byron.

 

[cl3537]

First, I agree with what eaglesaquarium posted, just so no one thinks we are at opposite ends or anything.  I just like to do it simpler, and for me that is with plants, but fast-growing are essential and very few initial fish.  It is impossible to detect ammonia or nitrite with test kits if this is done correctly.
 
>> Would the Amazon swords, Anubias, and Ferns be enough in addition to the Tetra Safestart in your opinion. I don't want to complicate things for myself right at the beginning?
 
Floating plants I particularly like are Water Sprite (Ceratopteris cornuta, the true floating species), Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes), and Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum).  The only caution with the Frogbit is one has to make sure it is the tropical species; there are two temperate climate species and I got stuck with one of them from a local store, and while it grows OK generally it does suffer a bit from the continual tropical temperature.  Water Sprite is about ideal as a superb floating plant; I bought one plant back in the 1990's and I have several plants in a couple tanks today even though I toss out plants every water change.  Other options are some of the stem plants; Brazilian Pennywort (Hydrocotyl leucocephala) is my favourite as it does very well with moderate light even if grown rooted as a stem plant,  Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) can work well.  And then there are smaller plants such as Salvinia and the tiny duckweed which some consider a weed; Salvinia is quite attractive but it is small, and thus the roots don't provide the interest for fish that the other plants will.
 
>> Thanks I'll look into these in future. I would prefer lower maintenance even though I realize even with the plants above I will have to do quite a bit of trimming which may prove cumbersome through the fluval edge small hole.
 
I assume there will be a cover on the tank?  This is important, as fish will mump and if the water is anywhere close to the top this occurs esp during darkness.  Also the evaporation of tank water into the room is considerable when tanks are heated.  And dust gets in the water, plus it is easy for other substances to get accidentally dumped in.
 
>> The tank is all glass on all 4 sides with a small opening in the middle of the top and cover for that. This design allows top viewing but also makes it difficult to clean and get things in and out of the tank. See the video link although I am getting the one that is twice as high as in the video.  
 
Freezing weather is a risk with liquids in transit, so I would here go with the SafeStart.  Follow the directions.  It is quite true that Stability is different bacteria, but it will work in my experience.  But given the choice I would use the SafeStart if you can't get the Dr. Tim's.  On the different products, Dr. Hovanec also tested several and found that even those with all the wrong bacteria did quicken the cycling, though not by all that much.  He surmised that the injection of any form of bacteria seems to jumpstart the nitrifying species.  I did have a link to his paper on this somewhere, though its been a while since I read it and I may have lost it.
 
>>> I appreciate if you can find it. I am curious how much better the new Dr. Tim's is than the Tetra Safestart.
 

 

[Byron]

Would the Amazon swords, Anubias, and Ferns be enough in addition to the Tetra Safestart in your opinion. I don't want to complicate things for myself right at the beginning?
 

 
No, or maybe yes.  Ferns and Anubias are slow-growing, so their removal of nutrients (including ammonium/ammonia) is minimal.  Amazon swords (Echinodorus sp.) if settled and healthy are moderate growers so these take up more nutrients, and in fact Echinodorus plants are very heavy feeders but this involves all nutrients not just ammonia/ammonium.  So on this aspect alone, I would say you need more plants and these must include some floating which are the fast growers.
 
Having said that, the other thing to keep in mind is something I mentioned in the other thread you started on this topic, and that is the fish/water volume ratio.  The fewer and smaller the fish and the greater the volume of water, the less ammonia will affect the fish.  If this was a case of a 4-foot 55g tank I would readily recommend a group of say 12 tetra (assuming small fish as one normally sees in stores) and off you go.  Like so much in this hobby, it is all about balance.  I understand the thinking of many that you should "cycle" your new aquarium before adding any fish and that's it because it is reliable.  But a forum is a place to learn (hopefully we all can continue to do so) and I feel obligated to set out alternatives.  But they have their limitations.
 

Thanks I'll look into these in future. I would prefer lower maintenance even though I realize even with the plants above I will have to do quite a bit of trimming which may prove cumbersome through the fluval edge small hole.
 

 
The trimming of the plants mentioned will be basically non-existent, confined to the occasional dead leaf.  Fast growing plants may require trimming or pruning periodically, but I do this during the weekly water change as needed.  And for that, you are best to remove the tank cover so you can get around everywhere in your substrate vacuuming, etc.  Disconnect filter and heater too, but don't forget to reconnect when finished.
 

I appreciate if you can find it. I am curious how much better the new Dr. Tim's is than the Tetra Safestart.
 

 
I posted the link previously, all I can find now.  Anyway, both these products are Dr. Hovanec's.  The SafeStart is his original biospira formula [if I have the name right] that was sold to Tetra.  It quickens the bacteria seeding but is not an instant cycling supplement.  The "Dr. Tim's One and Only" is his newer formula which is said to instantly cycle provided you follow the instructions.  I've never used it but I understand it does do what it claims if one follows the instructions.
 
BTW, in looking for the links, I came across Dr. Hovanec's warning that if the "One and Only" is frozen, it is useless.  The bacteria will be killed by freezing.  So I would not order this online until warmer weather.  I obtain most of my regular liquid products (conditioner, plant ferts) online as I can get them in larger sizes and save literally hundreds of dollars a year, but I am careful to order in late Spring so I don't have to worry about freezing in transit.

 

[cl3537]

 

...On the different products, Dr. Hovanec also tested several and found that even those with all the wrong bacteria did quicken the cycling, though not by all that much.  He surmised that the injection of any form of bacteria seems to jumpstart the nitrifying species.  I did have a link to his paper on this somewhere, though its been a while since I read it and I may have lost it.
 
 
Byron.

 
 
Despite the fear of causing paralysis by analysis to our newest member, I would be interested in that paper, if you ever manage to find it.  If you do, please feel free to send me a link or attachment via PM.  
 
Thanks.
 

Don't worry about that, I did a pHD in Organometallic chemistry in a former life so I am no stranger to reading and scientific papers.
Too bad I don't have access to my Scifinder(full text of most journals) anymore but I can ask a Professor friend of mine to pull the papers if you guys find the references.
 
My latest question is maybe the following plan add plants dose with Ammonia to max of 2ppm and add tetra safestart and cycle before adding fish.
 
One thing I find unsure of it would seem that Dr. Tim's and Safestart require an ammonia source or the bacteria would go dormant or die. In the case of safestart the fish should be added within two hours of adding the bacteria. But considering the bacteria are likely very similar why can't safestart be used for quicker cycling with say 1 - 2ppm concentration max of ammonia added instead of using fish to generate Ammonia.
 
Now while higher concentrations of Ammonia might inhibit the growth is there evidence that it Dr Tim's can fishless cycle and Tetra cannot.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 
One thing I find unsure of it would seem that Dr. Tim's and Safestart require an ammonia source or the bacteria would go dormant or die. In the case of safestart the fish should be added within two hours of adding the bacteria. But considering the bacteria are likely very similar why can't safestart be used for quicker cycling with say 1 - 2ppm concentration max of ammonia added instead of using fish to generate Ammonia.
 
Now while higher concentrations of Ammonia might inhibit the growth is there evidence that it Dr Tim's can fishless cycle and Tetra cannot.
 

 
 
It can, but I'd stick to the 1 ppm.  

 

[cl3537]

 

 
One thing I find unsure of it would seem that Dr. Tim's and Safestart require an ammonia source or the bacteria would go dormant or die. In the case of safestart the fish should be added within two hours of adding the bacteria. But considering the bacteria are likely very similar why can't safestart be used for quicker cycling with say 1 - 2ppm concentration max of ammonia added instead of using fish to generate Ammonia.
 
Now while higher concentrations of Ammonia might inhibit the growth is there evidence that it Dr Tim's can fishless cycle and Tetra cannot.
 

 
 
It can, but I'd stick to the 1 ppm.  
 

1 ppm for optimal growth of the bacteria in the Tetrasafestart?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That's my belief, yes.  

 

[cl3537]

That's my belief, yes.  

Read in my other thread on cycling that you suggested 2ppm for the second dose.
 
I redosed to 1ppm last night from 0.25ppm and after about 18 hours it looks like its down to 0.5ppm but with the API I just can never tell 0.5 could be 0.75 or 0.35 as it has wide ranges.
 
If in about 12 hours its down to ~0.25ppm should I dose to 2ppm this time?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

That's my belief, yes.  

Read in my other thread on cycling that you suggested 2ppm for the second dose.
 
I redosed to 1ppm last night from 0.25ppm and after about 18 hours it looks like its down to 0.5ppm but with the API I just can never tell 0.5 could be 0.75 or 0.35 as it has wide ranges.
 
If in about 12 hours its down to ~0.25ppm should I dose to 2ppm this time?
 

 
 
What are your nitrite values?

 

[cl3537]

 

 


That's my belief, yes.  

Read in my other thread on cycling that you suggested 2ppm for the second dose.
 
I redosed to 1ppm last night from 0.25ppm and after about 18 hours it looks like its down to 0.5ppm but with the API I just can never tell 0.5 could be 0.75 or 0.35 as it has wide ranges.
 
If in about 12 hours its down to ~0.25ppm should I dose to 2ppm this time?
 

 
 
What are your nitrite values?
 


I have never been able to detect any nitrite in any of my daily tests even my last test today.
Before I redosed last night I felt it may have been the plants(My Bacopa Monnieri are growing quite quickly I see new leaves every other day) or something in TSS (not the BB) that was lowering my ammonia.
 
But after redosing up to 1ppm last night and seeing 0.5ppm today I think it may just be the BB have indeed started to develop. The only logical explanation I can come up with for Ammonia lowering and no Nitrite is that there is enough dormant Nitrospira in TSS to convert any Nitrite into Nitrate as quickly as it can be produced by the Nitrosomonas.
 
Unfortunately I have never added enough Ammonia(2 ppm in total) to even bother to test for Nitrates yet which would confirm or disprove this theory. 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I see.  Going with the TSS though, adding little bits of ammonia is better than a larger dose.  That is very possible that the nitrite is not showing up because of the bacteria.  
 
 
I wouldn't bump to 2ppm at this point until the 1ppm is completely processed in 24 hours. Once that happens, I'd bump to 2 ppm.

 

[cl3537]

I see.  Going with the TSS though, adding little bits of ammonia is better than a larger dose.  That is very possible that the nitrite is not showing up because of the bacteria.  
 
 
I wouldn't bump to 2ppm at this point until the 1ppm is completely processed in 24 hours. Once that happens, I'd bump to 2 ppm.

 
Thanks I'll wait for that.
 
Its possible that my Bacopa plants are removing both Ammonia and Nitrite.
 
 
This study (although a poorly designed  and unclear method(size and number of plants) and setup (55 Gourami in each tank?!) shows a lowering of Nitrogen species attributed just to this plant of 2-3ppm Ammonia and 2-3ppm Nitrite as well see the graphs. But that difference is at extremely high spike concentrations of both Ammonia and nitrite.
 
http/www.injctr.com/Adminpages/DownFile.ashx?ID=144
 
I still have a concern that due to no detected Nitrite that perhaps the TSS failed and its just this plant doing the work.
 
 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

I see.  Going with the TSS though, adding little bits of ammonia is better than a larger dose.  That is very possible that the nitrite is not showing up because of the bacteria.  
 
 
I wouldn't bump to 2ppm at this point until the 1ppm is completely processed in 24 hours. Once that happens, I'd bump to 2 ppm.

Could the plants be taking the Ammonia? I listed my complete tank list in the other thread.
 

 
 
Yes, plants can uptake ammonia from the tank water.