Mature Water

[Bignose]

I'm saying I'm doing a university degree in genetics ...

I also am a researcher, although in a very different field. ...

Both of you should know that the above quotes are the starts of appeals to authority -- a logical fallacy. It is a fallacy because it doesn't matter how many or few degrees someone has, a degree does not automatically make someone more correct. Or in other words, someone can have one or multiple degrees and still be wrong.

Instead of appeals to authority, you should be presenting more evidence. Evidence from peer review journal articles and studies. Logical fallacies do not advance a scientific discussion, and often completely derail it (such as the ensuing argument about psychology as a science). They definitely weaken an argument, not strengthen it. Here is a pretty good list of many types of logical fallacies: http/www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

So, let's get back on topic and strengthen your argument by bringing back unbiased objective evidence if you can. No more logical fallacies. It doesn't matter if that evidence comes from a kindergardener or a person with 7 PhDs, all that matter is how unbiased objective and statistically strong it is (i.e. control groups and multiple repetitions).

 

[BethK]

If we talk about mature water, do we mean a few days old or weeks? what would be a definition?

 

[OldMan47]

I'm ready for the pub chat but I'm afraid this is not a pub. As long as the discussion stays civil I see no reason to end it though.

 

[Big_eyes]

If we talk about mature water, do we mean a few days old or weeks? what would be a definition?

That is what has been said, if you change water every week and filter plenty then the water wont be mature.

But then what makes up the basis of 'mature water'? How do you define wether water is mature or not? I may have missed big bits as I shot through this thread btw.

Mostly people seem to be taking mature water to mean that it has helpful bacteria in it. To me mature water would just be dirty water that saves fish from going into shock too much in a new tank. As has briefly been said.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

I had a little debate with my parents about the concept of mature water yesterday. My father does not believe it exists. My mother does. I suggested perhaps a little test. It was hypothesised that ordinary tap water was put into a container and sealed against possible outside contaminants, then left for a number of weeks. Would the water have the same chemical make-up as that of water fresh water from the tap. Well, no! We all know that before the introduction of de-chlorinator that water was left to stand and/or stirred to remove chlorine from the water. That, in itself shows that the water does change, even in the short term. As I haven't carried such an experiment I cannot state catagorically what a result might show. I do believe that some of the metals in the water would 'disappear' through evaporation or become inate. Without the proper conditions etc, any test I try will be weak at best. The question here is what benefit mature water might have over fresh water. I think that is also dependant on the organisms which live in it and their needs. Just as one fish needs fresh water and another needs brackish or marine conditions. In a tank the chemical components will change and will also be impacted on by the creatures living in it. The danger in not changing water is that the water chemistry will alter radically from the tap and that can cause disease and stress to the inhabitants when fresh water is re-introduced.
A slightly removed instance in the difference different water can have is on a personal level. I cannot drink Welsh water from the tap. When my brother was at uni in Wales I stayed with him and drank it. It gave me serious migrains! The water in Cumbria also presents me with problems. It gives me cystitus. I believe these are both reasonably soft water areas? I live in a hard water area and always have, my body didn't like the introduction of radically different water. I am aware that that probably means I have a truly naff system but meh. Surely, if it can affect a supposedly highly adaptable human being so severely, then the aquatic life can feel the impact of differing water chemistry.
The other question here is, what is mature water? At what point do you classify water as mature? As soon as the water chemistry changes? Are we talking in hours, days, weeks, months or years?
I agree that degree or no degree doesn't make your point of view any more or less valid. I would love to find hard evidence either way but sadly my current research is my focal point (especially since it's due in thursday). Anyone got any other suggestions or experience in this area?
P.
P.S:I apologise if the previous debate was too much in areas, it was meant in a friendly manner and, hopefully, mostly on topic.

 

[Curiosity101]

I do believe that some of the metals in the water would 'disappear' through evaporation or become inate.

Metals don't leave anything through evaporation. Hence water conditioners to bind them. They can be made inert, and same become inert naturally over time, but the only way they leave the tank is through a water change

The question here is what benefit mature water might have over fresh water.

Very little in most peoples experience. In most peoples (well maintained) tanks they have the greatest success with fresh tap water. They don't have any losses from new tap water etc. I've had neons in fresh water many times. But have only ever struggled with them in a physically 'new' tank and have only seen issues with them in new tanks with new biofilters.

Surely, if it can affect a supposedly highly adaptable human being so severely, then the aquatic life can feel the impact of differing water chemistry.

I agree, 1 in 100 fish may react different... just like you have. But if we start catering for that possible (and still not proven) 1% vs the majority then what're we doing other than setting new keepers up for a fall?

The other question here is, what is mature water? At what point do you classify water as mature? As soon as the water chemistry changes? Are we talking in hours, days, weeks, months or years?

The original topic started by BethK was about mature water, and it somehow being better for fish cause it stops ammonia spikes. With her evidence being that in her tank and a minority of others when they switched tanks they had a spike and blamed it on using tap water to fill the tank.
They (not bethK specifically... I'm talking anyone who is blaming a spike on tap water) of don't reflect for a second to consider they could have done anything wrong, and equally dont ask themselves any questions about how they had the tank set up in the first place (Were they keeping soft water fish in hardwater etc). But instead hide behind and old disproved theory that 'mature' water exists with bacteria in it, and other magical things that somehow make it better for fish.

So if mature water = water that's been in a tank for over 6 days then yes of course it exists... because most people do a weekly water change. So my tank water is 'mature' when it gets to Sunday. Hooraaaahhh
Oh wait... then I have to do a water change... and what if I do a large one with this devilish tap water. But mature water is soooo much better.... Surely all my fish (and pretty much everyone else's who does a weekly change) would be dying on a regular basis?
Oh yeah.... they aren't!

I agree that degree or no degree doesn't make your point of view any more or less valid.

I agree to. But we're talking biology and chemistry here. Having a solid knowledge base of both of those fields is significantly going to help when you're explaining things. And although it doesn't make your point neccesarily more valid, from a scientific point of view it means I can state alot more facts. And not just 'theorise'.

So in summary,
I believe mature water as a theory doesn't exist as anything past water from a tank being older than water from a tap. I believe it has absolutely no health or stability benefits for the following reasons....
The vast majority of people will well maintained tanks see NO negative side effects of their weekly 20-30% changes, equally they see no problems with anything up to 100% changes.
The vast majority of people when doing a tank swichover see NO spike or mini-cycle whatsoever so long as they make sure their biofilter remains wet through the whole process, and this is with refilling the tank with practically 100% new water.
The theory of 'mature' water is an old one. It stems from years back when fish keeping was 'just a hobby' and not 'a hobby based on science'. We see much greater success proportionally in comparison to the past. Fish which were 'absolutely impossible to keep and breed' are now perfectly simple/easy to keep. Part of this will be down to selective breeding of fish that are suited to being kept in a tank, but fish biology will never change that much, and there are still plenty of 'sensitive' fish. Which if left to deal with someone who believes in 'mature' water. Quickly perish.

At the end of the day... what are you even wanting to do with this mature water? Surely if it held any gravity what so ever and you really believed it had so many benefits then you would go back to the old school routine of tank maintenance and wouldn't do a single water change? For fear if you did... some of your fish might die.

Edit: Oh n just to point out I'm not singling you out Miss Dib Dabs, My 'you's refer to anyone who believes that mature water exists.

 

[roadmaster]

Excrement left in toilet for three days would in my view be considered quite mature water.
Same principal with excrement left in fish tank.
Would I use either assuming that health was of primary concern? No.

 

[blue acara]

I only read original post so ill add my 2p. Mature water is a myth. I change about 80% of water ever 1-2 days in my discus tank and there is no ammonia oe nitrite spikes. the 'mature' part of the tank is the filter. In fact if you dont cahnge tank weater enough it can harm your fish with build up of excess nitrates and fish use up the 'elements' in water after a time. The only bad thing about new water is possible content of chlorine etc and the fact that it is cooler out of the tap. New/ fresh water premotes good growth and good fish health. I change 50% of water in a tank each week at least.

I thought this would be an interesting subject

Do you believe mature water has some form of benefit in a tank, pref a new tank? Or do you believe there is no such thing as mature water?

After reading a lot of 'scientific' articles and compared them to professional hobbyist or long time hobbyists, it seems like there is a slight differ that science has seemed to forgotten. IMO, there are 2 distinctively different water conditions, esp in a new tank, fresh water (new) and mature water (old).

Mature water's bacteria count should be balanced (something that new aquarium keepers are trying to achieve), it is my belief that this water doesn't give you outbursts of algae scummy films on the water surface and is not lethal to your fish. Mature water should give you a mixed and balance level of necessary elements for the life cycle of some bacteria.

When setting up a new tank, some people will prefer to use mature/established water to help media on its way. Then there is transferring cycled media into a new tank, with new water.

I'm not a techy minded person but isn't this what cycling a tank is trying to achieve?

It may not have a high beneficiary rate as mature media but surely, it is still something you could use to help a tank along the way?

I was told the other day that there is no such thing as mature water, is that correct?

 

[Bignose]

I agree that degree or no degree doesn't make your point of view any more or less valid.

I agree to. But we're talking biology and chemistry here. Having a solid knowledge base of both of those fields is significantly going to help when you're explaining things. And although it doesn't make your point neccesarily more valid, from a scientific point of view it means I can state alot more facts. And not just 'theorise'.

Then properly cite those facts. Again, the degree doesn't make your facts any better than my facts or my cat's facts. The degree can help give you the knowledge about what sources are and aren't good, and expose you to a wider variety of sources. Citing the evidence that supports your facts is just as important as stating the facts, especially in a debate.

 

[OldMan47]

I believe that C101 or maybe it was Miss Dib Dabs, has asked a very important question. What is our working definition of 'mature water"? If we do not agree on that, there is little point to continuing the discussion.

I must commend Bignose for intervening with a request that we follow scientific principles while our debate goes on. I wish this were a discussion being held in his scientific section for the simple reason that he insists on proper citation of facts and not opinion in these matters when subjects are discussed there. Authority of opinion means nothing there but proper citations are valued for their revelations. I always learn more in a short subject in his section than in much longer discussions in a place like this. When we stick to facts, not opinions, things move more quickly to results we can all learn from.

Let me turn things back to the people discussing this subject, I have no sources to cite.

 

[Curiosity101]

Then properly cite those facts. Again, the degree doesn't make your facts any better than my facts or my cat's facts. The degree can help give you the knowledge about what sources are and aren't good, and expose you to a wider variety of sources. Citing the evidence that supports your facts is just as important as stating the facts, especially in a debate.

I'm seriously not going to the effort of citing books and papers that have researched into the nitrogen cycle. It just isn't worth my time, so if you want to say that technically I have no basis for that because I can't be bothered thats fine(I know where you're coming from cause I'd never write a paper without citation, but then again I wouldn't never write a paper on something so basic). Eitherways, it's no skin off of my nose... and if people who haven't done any reading into biology and the nitrogen cycle want to give out their 'but maybe' and 'well this might happen' without applying any previous reading to it... then fine. Cause frankly most people on here see the statistics I've consistently been refering to. It's the minority that claim 'mature water' exists and has some benefit, often because they don't want to reflect that they could have done anything wrong... or refuse to see that the vast majority see no benefit from this mysterious notion of 'mature water'.

As for proof for the fact that tap water is much more beneficial and causes no issues in comparison too 'mature water' Ie. setting up a tank with a previous tanks water rather than just using a cycled filter and fresh dechlored or avoiding water changes because mature water has some sort of benefit. Then again... I can't really be bothered as I know from having been here that time and time again we see very few problems from massive water changes and people setting up tanks with cycled filters but fresh tap water (so long as they've set it up correctly). It's like an internal pie chart so to speak.

But if anyone does want to try to proove or disprove the mature water point. Then start a poll and gather some statistics.
The basic trends are (although technically I have no proof as this is gather from many many people and many threads),
Fish often spawn after a large water change
Many people seed filters from other tanks into a tank with completely fresh water and the filter cycles within days and remains stable
Some fish are sensitive enough (like discus), they they require many water changes and keepers are less successful the longer the water sits.

But basically the first and original question was does mature water exist and affect the nitrogen cycle... well no... so if someone wants to start a poll (multiple choice) I would suggest...

Did you set up a new tank with a cycled filter...
Did you set up a new tank with a new uncycled filter...
Did you use a fresh water...
Did you use old tank water...
Did you see an ammonia and/or nitrite spike - Yes
Did you see an ammonia and/or nitrite spike - No

Any further comments should be posted below, particularly if you've had more than one experience and if you don't fit perfectly into the options above.

THAT would go some way to answering the OP (BethK's) question.