Mature Water

[BethK]

the thing is, longer hobbyist will disagree, i spoke to a few last night who say there is such thing as mature water, this is where the topic stems from.

I have a sponge filter, sponge box and stingray and all 3 have mature and cycled media in use. But this isn't about me, as the topic suggests, fors and againsts for mature water and i'd like to keep it that way

 

[mattlee]

the thing is, longer hobbyist will disagree, i spoke to a few last night who say there is such thing as mature water, this is where the topic stems from.

I have a sponge filter, sponge box and stingray and all 3 have mature and cycled media in use. But this isn't about me, as the topic suggests, fors and againsts

it seems that you have your answer then from the older hobbyists......

 

[BethK]

the thing is, longer hobbyist will disagree, i spoke to a few last night who say there is such thing as mature water, this is where the topic stems from.

I have a sponge filter, sponge box and stingray and all 3 have mature and cycled media in use. But this isn't about me, as the topic suggests, fors and againsts

it seems that you have your answer then from the older hobbyists......

wanted to see everyone else's views, find it interesting, esp when people are more than willing to dismiss 'mature water'(i'd like to know their thought process on that). After all, we are all still learning and to hear views helps in that process.

I, by no means, am knowledgeable in the science of fish keeping/aquariums but this sort of thread helps me to understand. After all, it should be about trial and error, you'd never learn then.

 

[mattlee]

some keepers of fish like discus will do 30-50% water changes every 2-3 days. i would safely say that water if it does mature will not be able to mature in the short time of a couple of days its in the tank.
if water did mature and its beneficial then why do we do water changes to replace with fresh water?
to keep nitrate levels down and to replace any used trace elements etc. new water helps fish growth, fin repair/damage and generally keep our fish more healthy

 

[OldMan47]

Water has everything and nothing to do with fish health.
The qualities of your water are the most important factor to your fish. It needs to have the right temperature, enough oxygen content, a reasonable mineral content for the specific fish, etc. If I am moving a fish from one tank to another, I must make the change slowly enough to account for the differences in water between them. Mature water, in the sense of the water the fish are accustomed to being in, is very important because the fish are adjusted to that water. Changes should be made gradually if the new water is not a good match in all respects. It is the reason that a careful fish keeper often uses a drip acclimation for new fish. The drip allows the fish to adjust to the new tank's water over a few hours. A simple temperature match as advocated by some LFS is simply not good enough in my opinion.

OK, so why do we not worry about frequent large water changes when the water qualities are so important? What comes out of the faucet in my kitchen sink is fairly constant from one day to the next. The mineral content hardly changes at all, the temperature is whatever mix I adjust to, the pH is not very important but tends to always be about the same. AS long as I do not neglect a tank's water changes very long, the water I am adding after a large water change is almost the same as the water that I removed. It will not have the build up of contaminants that we do not measure, nitrogen is not the only contaminant in water that has fish in it, but it is otherwise a "no change" water source. Many livebearer breeders are very aware that they see faster growth of fry if they do tons of water changes on the grow out tank. It is thought that the hormones that tend to accumulate in a fry tank with "mature" water inhibits the growth of the fry. If I have sensitive fish and am moving them from a pet shop to my home, I would love to bring along some water from the shop and slowly change it over several days to my tap water by doing repeated small water changes, but that is not a realistic thing to do so I settle for a drip acclimation instead. On the other hand, if I am moving a fish between two equally water changed tanks within my own home, I will use a simple net for the transfer. (We already said the tap water was consistent from day to day so the tank water will also be consistent between tanks.)

Now to the idea that there is something inherently good about "mature" water. If you are doing regular water changes as we often advise, there is no maturity about your tank's water. It is fairly fresh all the time. The technique of frequent large water changes is widely used to care for the more sensitive among the fish that we keep, not the other way around. When it comes to the simple nitrogen cycle, the bacteria that we care about for processing ammonia and nitrites live primarily on surfaces that receive a good water flow of oxygenated water. That not only describes our filters but also the very top layer of gravel in the tank, some of the ornamentation and even parts of the tank's glass itself. The filter is thought to contain much of the bacterial colony but certainly not all of it. The stories about moving things around between tanks are instructive in one sense, they point out that a simple thought of the filter itself being the only repository of beneficial bacteria is an oversimplification. When you move gravel, you never get the same grains of the gravel back on the top surface so that source is lost. If you are like most people you take advantage of moving ornaments as a time to do some cleaning so that source is likely lost. Even if you move a wet ornament from one tank to another, chances are good that it will not be in a similar water flow path in the new tank. It is obvious the glass in the tank cannot make the journey to a new tank. What all of this means is that the effectiveness of a moved system has obviously left behind some of the beneficial bacterial effect, even if every bit we could move has been moved.

 

[mattlee]

so to cut it short, in a well maintained tank with regular water changes there is no such thing as "mature" water.

 

[BethK]

thanks oldman, that is the kind of answer i was looking for

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Hmmmm well I'm going to offer an alternative. I believe in mature water. There have been occassions when tanks have gone without cleaning for months at a time (do not flame for this). The water parameters have remained constant and good during that time with no ill effects on the fish. If a tank is well filtered, not over-crowded or over-fed, water can remain in good condition for long periods of time. The only time that an effect is noticed is when a w/c is then carried out after a long period and often leads to issues within the tank. This has to be attributed to the new water in the tank and clear differences in it compared to the resident water.
It is true that we have dreadful water in this locality. Frequently the lfs has called in the water board in connection to water issues and I have lost a number of fish over the years due to the quality of the water coming from the tap. I won't drink it without boiling and always use more dechlor than suggested (it isn't unusual for tap water to smell strongly of chlorine here). Even then illness can occur.
Currently I do do more frequent w/c's (once every 2 weeks) but they tend to be 10 - 15% only so any effects are diluted by the remaining water. This may be an issue only occuring in a minority of places but the issues have gone on for years and I look forward to moving to a place where the water quality remains consistent and good. PH can swing about here too. It's either hard (7.8) or really hard! (8.4)
Until that time I will be sticking to the use of extensive filtering and small changes.
Obviously if ammonia and nitrite is present it is essential to do water changes until it is removed (cannot state that strongly enough) and in more mature tanks the issue becomes about levels of nitrate, hence the need to do water changes even after years of stable tank environments. The other time is when new fish are introduced as they often carry different pathogens to the resident fish, which can cause all sorts of problems, much as the introduction of white ppl did to rainforest tribes some years back, who had no immunity to the common cold.....you get the picture. Despite the use of seperate tanks for the first few weeks, they can still carry something they are immune to and cause illness in your other fish. That is why it's important to use trusted ppl or lfs's and take every precaution to protect your fish.
P.
P.S: I would add that any water that hasn't been changed in a while will have a differing chemistry to tap water due to the fish etc, which the fish will have adjusted to over that time. When adding fresh water to that mix you are making the fish adjust to a different chemistry quickly (especially in the case of larger changes) and that causes stress. I do not suggest anyone leaves water changes for extensive periods of time for that reason alone. It happened here for very personal reasons which I do wish to disclose here, and not because I was too lazy or didn't have time.
Like anything, knowledge is power and it is important to know how to use that 'power'. Learn your fish inside out (no, don't start doing biopsies or carrying out biology lessons on your fish) and learn to know when something is wrong just by looking, even when there are no obvious signs....and always check water if you suspect a problem.

 

[Tolak]

so to cut it short, in a well maintained tank with regular water changes there is no such thing as "mature" water.

Pretty much. My water is similar to OM47's, in that it is harder with a slightly higher pH, and there is little to no variance from day to day. From my understanding some areas with softer water & a lower pH will add any number of chemicals to increase the pH of the tap water. This is an effort to reduce the effect of acidic water on the supply lines.

Some of these various substances can gas out over 24-48 hours, causing pH to drop from what is supplied at the tap. An easy way to check for this is to simply test the tap water, then let a bucket sit with aeration for a day or two then check again. In these rare instances aging water is an option with more sensitive species, but for most species it is not needed.

 

[mattlee]

so to cut it short, in a well maintained tank with regular water changes there is no such thing as "mature" water.

Pretty much. My water is similar to OM47's, in that it is harder with a slightly higher pH, and there is little to no variance from day to day. From my understanding some areas with softer water & a lower pH will add any number of chemicals to increase the pH of the tap water. This is an effort to reduce the effect of acidic water on the supply lines.

Some of these various substances can gas out over 24-48 hours, causing pH to drop from what is supplied at the tap. An easy way to check for this is to simply test the tap water, then let a bucket sit with aeration for a day or two then check again. In these rare instances aging water is an option with more sensitive species, but for most species it is not needed.

thanks Tolak, i knew we would get there in the end

 

[Rainbow67]

When you move gravel, you never get the same grains of the gravel back on the top surface so that source is lost. If you are like most people you take advantage of moving ornaments as a time to do some cleaning so that source is likely lost. Even if you move a wet ornament from one tank to another, chances are good that it will not be in a similar water flow path in the new tank. It is obvious the glass in the tank cannot make the journey to a new tank. What all of this means is that the effectiveness of a moved system has obviously left behind some of the beneficial bacterial effect, even if every bit we could move has been moved.

Hmm, is mature water better than fresh water with beneficial bacteria?

I suspect there is no hard science either way.
Some people seem certain that the beneficial bacteria is only found on the hard surfaces, but then again how many times have scientists revealed to us new discoveries completely contrary to what long held beliefs use to be?

Just last month I happen to be completely changing the gravel in my tank which had been in my tank for about 14 years!
I kept a good 90% of the old tank water and put it back in the newly gravelled tank.

Due to a snail infestation which was largely why I decided to do the gravel change in the first place, I also bathed all my ornaments into a hydrogen peroxide solution.....which killed the snails and eggs and I assume any beneficial bacteria on the ornaments too.

I can report (4 weeks since gravel change) that even though the tank had its 14 year old gravel removed and its ornaments zapped by hydrogen peroxide NO(Zero Nada!) ammonia spike occurred.
Obviously the bacteria in my filter helped to prevent any ammonia spike, did the mature water help too.....I can't be certain.......but
the loss of any bacteria in my gravel and tank ornaments had no adverse effects whatsoever.......so for me the ammount of beneficial bacteria lost through gravel change is minimal in comparison to the bacteria colony in the filter.

I for one though would still continue to use as much mature water as possible when making any further future tank changes as obviously it helps the fish with stable water parameters that they have become acustomed to.......but also becuase it just might hold some key bacteia or at least conducive conditions to keep good bacterial growth going......it certainly does no harm in any case.

 

[roadmaster]

When you move gravel, you never get the same grains of the gravel back on the top surface so that source is lost. If you are like most people you take advantage of moving ornaments as a time to do some cleaning so that source is likely lost. Even if you move a wet ornament from one tank to another, chances are good that it will not be in a similar water flow path in the new tank. It is obvious the glass in the tank cannot make the journey to a new tank. What all of this means is that the effectiveness of a moved system has obviously left behind some of the beneficial bacterial effect, even if every bit we could move has been moved.

Hmm, is mature water better than fresh water with beneficial bacteria?

I suspect there is no hard science either way.
Some people seem certain that the beneficial bacteria is only found on the hard surfaces, but then again how many times have scientists revealed to us new discoveries completely contrary to what long held beliefs use to be?

Just last month I happen to be completely changing the gravel in my tank which had been in my tank for about 14 years!
I kept a good 90% of the old tank water and put it back in the newly gravelled tank.

Due to a snail infestation which was largely why I decided to do the gravel change in the first place, I also bathed all my ornaments into a hydrogen peroxide solution.....which killed the snails and eggs and I assume any beneficial bacteria on the ornaments too.

I can report (4 weeks since gravel change) that even though the tank had its 14 year old gravel removed and its ornaments zapped by hydrogen peroxide NO(Zero Nada!) ammonia spike occurred.
Obviously the bacteria in my filter helped to prevent any ammonia spike, did the mature water help too.....I can't be certain.......but
the loss of any bacteria in my gravel and tank ornaments had no adverse effects whatsoever.......so for me the ammount of beneficial bacteria lost through gravel change is minimal in comparison to the bacteria colony in the filter.

I for one though would still continue to use as much mature water as possible when making any further future tank changes as obviously it helps the fish with stable water parameters that they have become acustomed to.......but also becuase it just might hold some key bacteia or at least conducive conditions to keep good bacterial growth going......it certainly does no harm in any case.

Would note your last paragraph and submit that the use of old water, or (mature )water, will only help fishes being moved from similar water that they might have grown accutomed to. This is not likely with newly aquired fishes who are often kept in fish store tanks,or shipping bags with waters quite different than what you or I have in our tanks.(can cause harm in this case).
Also ,it is true that a small amount of bacteria may be in this (old or mature) water but so too would bacterial pathogens or parasites along with dissolved organics that could be present, and then they too could unknowingly be introduced in this way. Course,,, pathogens and or parasites could also be introduced with use of filter material ,decor, and or substrate from tanks where they were present.

Is why most recommend that if you aquire seed material from a tank that you ideally want to ensure that the borrowed seed material came from a disease free existing tank.
Would never accept seed material from tanks at local fish store for this reason. Who knows how honest the employee or owner is or whether they are even aware.

Is in my view no clear benefit to using old, or (mature) water.
To me,, old water is water that provides little benfit other than it's use on house plants who enjoy the nitrogen source.
If you are using same source of water for all your tanks at home,then there should be no significant difference in paramters that would affect the fish assuming regular maint is being performed on your tanks and no water adjusting chemicals or media is being used .

 

[Curiosity101]

Long Answer:
I've done plenty of tank changes and never experienced an ammonia spike in a tank that was set up correctly in the first place.

My very first tank was (un beknown to me), fish in cycled. I also wasn't as efficient at gravel cleaning and such. I would imagine that at gravel surface level there was a small amount of ammonia being produce from general waste, and that generally the bacteria attached in many places other than just the filter.

When I upgraded from 60l-125l I had no ammonia spike at all and that was with 80%-90% fresh tap water.

When I changed from gravel to sand I did have a spike.

When I changed from 125l back to a 60l I had no spike (80%-90% new water)

When I switched to my most recent 60l I had no spike (again 80=90% new water)

Equally when I cycled the filter for my apistos in 5l of water (the water literally just covered the filter) I set up my new apisto tank with 100% new water and new substrate, I added dechlor and let it get to temp. I then added my cycled filter and fish around 1 hour later, I had no spikes.

When I say 'mature water is a creation of older hobbyists', I'm not just going by the above. But also other peoples experiences and scientific fact.

To the person who said...

but then again how many times have scientists revealed to us new discoveries completely contrary to what long held beliefs use to be?

That as a comment is a fair point, but in this context it isn't applicable. We know exactly what type of bacteria carrying out the nitrogen cycle, and we know they're not freeliving. They colonise on surfaces that have high O2 and water flow (as Oldman said). This is fact, it has been proven beyond doubt... it is no longer just 'a theory'.
There will at any one time be a few bacteria floating around in the water that are either dying and have come loose from their colony, or have just come loose generally. But they are not free living normally, and the number floating around are negligible.

The only 'mature water' I could say exists is in relation to how long fish have gone without a water change. If the fish have been in the same water for a long period of time then it starts to differ greatly from the tap water conditions. Therefore any big water changes and such can cause problems etc.
THIS is where the theory of 'mature water' came from with old hobbyists. Because regular water changes weren't the done thing. And when you eventually did do one it often resulted in fish deaths because of (presumably) things such as pH shock down to the extremely differing values of TDS between tap and tank.

Oh and just one more thing to add, although mature water doesn't exist, mature tanks do. There is more to a balanced aquarium than just a biofilter (Which does become more stable over the first 6 months), lots of other factors keep a tank balanced. These are the 'unknowns' but the theory is that there are probably other colonies of bacteria and micro organisms that coat surfaces such as gravel and tank walls and affect things that we don't measure.
Imparticular in a new tank you tend to get them growing on the tank sealant, presumably as they 'eat' up anything leeching from it.

But as these things don't noticably effect the fish, and the link is clearly showing there is nothing beneficial in the water, it's very easy to explain and understand why mature water doesn't exist.


Short Answer:
No mature water doesn't exist, particularly with respect to the nitrogen cycle and avoiding tank spikes.

Edit: Just to add, sorry if I've repeated anything anyone else has said. But I figured it wouldn't do any harm

 

[Rainbow67]

To the person who said...

but then again how many times have scientists revealed to us new discoveries completely contrary to what long held beliefs use to be?

That as a comment is a fair point, but in this context it isn't applicable. We know exactly what type of bacteria carrying out the nitrogen cycle, and we know they're not freeliving. They colonise on surfaces that have high O2 and water flow (as Oldman said). This is fact, it has been proven beyond doubt... it is no longer just 'a theory'.

Hmm,even things "proven beyond doubt" can actually turn out to wrong!

 

[Mikaila31]

Mature water's bacteria count should be balanced (something that new aquarium keepers are trying to achieve), it is my belief that this water doesn't give you outbursts of algae scummy films on the water surface and is not lethal to your fish. Mature water should give you a mixed and balance level of necessary elements for the life cycle of some bacteria.

Actually old water IMO will be much more likely to promote algae. Its going to have a much higher concentration of organics and has been exposed to light for quite a while. Fresh clean water IMO is much less likely to promote algae.

As far as mature water, no I don't beleive their is such a thing. There is a difference between old and new water, but its nothing like the difference between a new and mature filter. I've never used old water to help "mature" any tank. I generally add fish to a brand new tank, then let the tank sit for a few hours. Then I transfer over mature media. New tank should then be cycled. I wouldn't call it mature since it does not have that stability, but it should not mini cycle or anything like that.