Do These Cycle Boosters Actually Work?

[the biffster]

some say the do some say they don't
were do you start i used to cycle
my tanks using fish food or prawns
and some time a fish in cycle but
not any more like the easy way
its up to you which way you would
like to go i myself fish less cycle
now

 

[Curiosity101]

But none-the-less it still does work for some people. So to say that it is useless is not correct.

Actually all you can really say is that a small percentage 'seem' to work for some people.

There are other unknown factors that could be contributing to a faster cycle. There may even be an elevated number of bacteria in the tap water, or perhaps they got some decor/filter media/gravel from an existing tank and didn't think anything of it.

We've had people test it before (normally people who've been doing fishless cycles but already had a bottled of 'bacteria' and report their results). So far none of these have shown any good results. And the majority of opinions I've heard are people saying they haven't worked. All this combined with some basic biology and I have concluded that although no one can ever say that they 'don't ever work', equally no one can ever say for sure that theres DID work... as there are other variables that could contribute.

My normal line is "A very small minority of people who have used these products seem to have had some success, but the vast majority do not see ANY difference. I therefore don't recommend them unless they have already been purchased, and certainly not as an excuse to cycle with fish, but as a way to try to boost a cycle. They just aren't worth the money you pay, especially not when you can just acquire some mature filter media and practically insta cycle that way".

That's a point... could you speak to your manager about maybe setting up a tank purely for making mature filter media. That way you could just chop a piece of sponge out of one of the filters in the mature media tank (remembering to replace it of course), bag it up for the customer with the explanation of stuffing it into their filter when they get home and then explain they can take fish home that day. But that they still need to test the water daily and do water changes as neccesary.

Maybe put together a 'Quick guide to healthy fish pack';
+ A leaflet on the nitrogen cycle in an aquarium, keeping it as simple and factual as possible
+ A leaflet on fishless cycling
+ A leaflet on fish in cycling
+ A 'Tools for keeping fish', that lists stuff you need. ie. syphon, liquid test kit, water conditioner. Maybe stating how simple fish keeping is... as all you should hopefully ever really need are a few basic tools.

 

[LoachLover]

My only concern with giving people a sponge (using your example) from our tanks is the fact that it's hard to say what bad things we may be passing on as well. We have so many fish coming in and going out of there every day, who knows what's in there sometimes. Granted it may at least be better than a person throwing a fish in a pretty much sterile environment.

 

[Curiosity101]

Unless you have an outbreak of something then you really shouldn't be passing on anything to their fish. I think I remember reading that certain parasites live in the water all the time (such as whitespot for example), but that healthy fish have a strong enough immune system to always keep it at bay.

Plus, if your set-up is anything like pets at home in the uk. There would be room for setting up a seperate tank (on that is seperate to the fish sale tanks), that has it's own filtration system and always has the same fish stock. Sorta like a 'show tank', but one that's over filtered.

 

[Timmy_Bee]

i like your idea of a filterb tank. They could even sell the mature media for half the cost of the bottled bacs and make a bit of money (or at least pay for the ammonia to keep this giant filter ticking over)


Also, C101, thanks for putting

My normal line is "A very small minority of people who have used these products seem to have had some success, but the vast majority do not see ANY difference. I therefore don't recommend them unless they have already been purchased, and certainly not as an excuse to cycle with fish, but as a way to try to boost a cycle. They just aren't worth the money you pay, especially not when you can just acquire some mature filter media and practically insta cycle that way"

What is annoying me is people who say they NEVER work, and then people show them examples of when they have worked. to which they say 'well, you must have done somehting wrong' - i dont think that i right at all.

As previously stated i have no experience (pos / neg) with these, but i believe in theory, they could work

 

[Curiosity101]

Actually it's more true to say they never work than they 'sometimes, albeit rarely' work. Because as raptorrex tried to explain, scientifically you'd need something to work at least half of the time for it to be considered as more than just a fluke.

Other factors could contribute in the times where is has 'seemed' to work. I don't mind people saying that they have 'seemed' to work. Cause that's perfectly true.

And in theory bacteria in a bottle could work. But there is also other very obvious biological rules that apply that explain why they wont work most of the time. You can't just 'make bacteria dormant' and then make them spring to life again. The only thing you can do is cool them down so that their metabolic processes slow. As they 'live' the bacteria we want (so the bacteria you would hope is in the bottle) used oxygen and gives off CO2. Over a short period of time if kept at room temperature the bacteria WILL create a toxic environment which will ultimately kill them.

This is why only the refrigerated ones are too even be considered, cause there is just no real way you can avoid the bacteria creating the toxic environment and killing themselves other than either A) refrigerating them, but even then cool them down too much and they will die or B) put a very very small number of bacteria into a VERY large solution.

But in case B you'd need to then use the entire bottle, and as far as I'm aware most manufactures go with a 'dose by dose' method of addition.

 

[ian]

i'm in the 'camp' of they NEVER work...how can they?

I have done some work researching things like Yakult and other leading brands of these types of good bacteria. There is plenty of good research out there to suggest that they are nothing but yogurt when they arrive at you door. The way the companies get away with it is, the EU have in place a trading standards act whi says ''the bacteria has to be alive when leaving the factory'' <<not the exact quote, put more simply. The die off rate of these bacterias are really high, they have nothing to feed on. However these companies pay a lot of money to scientists to come up with evidence that states otherwise, this evidence is often floored when critiqued. One of the most famous peice of evidence which was picked up by press and alike was that one of 'Cranberry juice cure UTI's and cystitis', when critiqued by someone half decent it was found that Ocean spray payed for the research to be done.

as for the comment regarding vaccinations, thses are either friged or not, depends on what they contain, ie the flu virus which is more than likely a live virus (which is fridged).

 

[Curiosity101]

Who mentioned vaccines? Just to second what ianho said, vaccines aren't actually comparable. Live strains are refrigerated, and equally they're not shelved for weeks on end before use! lol. They are straight from production to use.

The non living vaccines are just that, they often don't need refrigeration, and they don't spring to life once they're inside of you either.

 

[ian]

I think it was Timmybee earlier in the thread.

 

[Timmy_Bee]

yeah that was me...

 

[Timmy_Bee]

but the way, i am kind of playing the devils advocate [sp] on this one. I just dont want to believe they are a complete con until i can test them myselves.

On a similar topic, i recommend you all read 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre - this is a great book that disproves most of these advertising stunts. Also have a look at a group of scientists called Sense About Science (of which my sister is a published member...)

 

[Curiosity101]

Problem is, and please don't take this the wrong way. But unless you test a lot of bottles of bacteria then your results as an individual are worthless.

Your results only mean something when put into context with everyone else who has ever used them. And you will either find it 'seems' to work or it doesn't work. You could only state it worked if you set up a control, and even then all that would proove is that they can work. But there is still overwhelming evidence that normally they dont... so as I said your findings, no matter what they are will do little to change the current conclusion.

Except of course if you set up a control, then you could make a conclusion about that specific type of bottled bacteria.

 

[Timmy_Bee]

was just looking at reviews of Tetra Safe Start and the first few i could find that were deemed 'successful' also had seeded media and/or gravel from a mature tank... Thats hardly a fair test!

 

[ian]

Think about it in simple terms, our good bacteria live in our filters (99%). it is kept alive by a fast flowing ammonia source. In a bottle of bacteria 1, there's no ammonia source 2. There is no fast flow.

All the above has been researched and we know all of this to be true.

IMO the people it has worked for have been lucky with a fish in cycle. Also how
long has that bottle been sitting on our lfs shelf?

They just don't work.

 

[alex.wardle]

Think about it in simple terms, our good bacteria live in our filters (99%). it is kept alive by a fast flowing ammonia source. In a bottle of bacteria 1, there's no ammonia source 2. There is no fast flow.

All the above has been researched and we know all of this to be true.

IMO the people it has worked for have been lucky with a fish in cycle. Also how
long has that bottle been sitting on our lfs shelf?

They just don't work.

seconded