Please Advise - First Water Test Results!

[trellis]

Hi again

Well after doing a 50% water change last night I have been out today and bought the master test kit and have just performed my 1st tests. Most things don't look so bad but Nitrates are borderline and the pH is dire!!!

Ammonia - 0.25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 20-40ppm
pH - 8

It's too late for me to get any additives to correct this today and having tested my tap water it is v alkaline so I doubt doing a further water change would help with the pH. Do I just get a corrective solution to bring the pH down tomorrow? What about the Nitrates - do I need another solution to help with this or would a water change again tomorrow help? I have bought a gravel cleaner so will try to use that too when I change water.

Just to recap or for those who missed my first post, my tank is 2 weeks old and has had fish in it for a week now (6 neon tetras and 1 cory).

Any advice most gratefully received!

 

[waterdrop]

OK, great that you got your kit. Last night you did a 50% because you didn't know what your ammonia and nitrite(NO2) were. Now we can see how much that was needed: if you had not done that your ammonia would probably have been above the upper limit (0.25ppm.) Since you are now at that upper limit, you are due for another water change at the earliest convenience. I would make it a 75% water change, to try and give yourself more time before yet another one will be needed.

Nitrate(NO3) and pH are unimportant. First of all, nitrate is relatively unimportant during cycling (it becomes a more important number to you -after- the filter is cycled) and in fact your nitrate number looks quite normal. On top of that you are in a Fish-In cycle, so you will be changing so much water that nitrate will not have a chance to become worse.

Your pH reading is within the normal range that we look for in freshwater community tanks and although it might not be the pH that breeders would seek for neons or corys, its fine right now for the situation you're in. Its never recommended that you use any pH-up or pH-down types of products - that is not the way we move pH and the vast majority of the time we don't -want- to move our pH away from our tap water anyway, because its *stability* we're after, not a particular pH numerical value. If we altered it (the pH,) then a water change would cause a pH instability that would be a shock to the fish.

So what does this all mean? It means you can stop worrying about nitrate or pH and concentrate on ammonia and nitrite(NO2,) which you can now measure. The MOST important thing is making those water changes large enough to keep ammonia and nitrite(NO2) within the narrow range of zero ppm to 0.25ppm, which can take some frequent work!

The gravel cleaner siphon will be new to you I think? You put the larger clear cylinder end in the tank and usually you are siphoning out into a bucket, drain or the garden. (Or you can dump the old water in the garden.) To start the siphon, you make sure the other end is in the bucket and is not coming out, then you take the big end in the tank and submerge and fill it with water, lift it up above the top surface and gravity will start the water quickly flowing out of it and into the bucket. Quickly (but gently so as not to splash) lower the big cylinder back underwater so that the flow will continue. If it fails and you get air, just try again. It takes a while to figure out the trick to it sometimes.

Once you get the siphoning going, plunge your cylinder deep into the gravel (always be gentle in your tank and watch out for fish, plants, decoration and not treating the glass too roughly) and give it time for the suction to churn the gravel and remove any debris. Slowly move about the gravel surface areas. You will be able to re-scape the gravel afterwards. The fish only need enough water so that their dorsal fins are not sticking out, but keep an eye on them.. they should be ok.

Be sure to remember to dose your conditioner at about 1.5x to 2x on the return water and roughly temperature match with your hand. Now that you've got your test kit and siphon, you may not need anything else from the LFS for quite a while. Conditioner is usually the only bottled chemical you'll need.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[BethK]

good info WD

Have to agree, pH is not an issue and i personally wouldn't buy chemicals to change it.

 

[CheniseMummy]

Tip with the siphon i found it tricky at first. i fill up the plastic tube large suction end with water while holding the end of the tubing pipe and covering the end with my thumb i then hold up the large siphon cup and let water fill the whole lengh of tube without letting any come out. Then submerge the siphon cup in the tank then let go of the piping end into the bucket. Works every time water flows good and less stressfull for fish than pumping up and down.

 

[trellis]

Tip with the siphon i found it tricky at first. i fill up the plastic tube large suction end with water while holding the end of the tubing pipe and covering the end with my thumb i then hold up the large siphon cup and let water fill the whole lengh of tube without letting any come out. Then submerge the siphon cup in the tank then let go of the piping end into the bucket. Works every time water flows good and less stressfull for fish than pumping up and down.

Thanks all

I have just used my siphon and done another 50% water change (I know you said I should do more but I was worried about taking so much out!) and cleaned the gravel. I didn't read this post before doing it so I did do the pumping up and down - worked fine though.

My levels are now:

pH - 7.8
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0

I guess as there is still some ammonia I will have to do another water change in a day or so?

The tetras seem quite happy. The Cory is still quite sedentry but he is alive and wriggled about a bit when I was using the siphon!

 

[waterdrop]

No, you are still not "getting it." (I can't believe how hard it is for these LFS bad advice episodes to die for our beginners!) 50% water changes are not doing you any good (in the learning sense).. You need to do a really large change and then see how perky and happy your fish look and that will psychologically free you from this bad advice syndrome I feel is happening.

This idea that somehow the "old" water is helping to keep your fish safe and protecting them from some sort of "shock" is just left-over advice from decades ago (when OM47 and I were much younger and keeping tanks, lol ) Sure, there are rare situations that we call "old tank syndrome" where a tank has been absolutely neglected for years and the heavy metals and mineral content have shot off the chart but this is -not- your situation. Your water is very, very much like your tap water (unless I'm missing something. There's no ammonia in your tap water is there?)

Again, its the learning-the-idea I'm after here (not the absolute 0.25 this particular time per se) and getting you in same thinking pattern that I feel the experienced aquarists here have. If you only do a 50% water change and then still have an ammonia level of 0.25ppm, the feeling you should have is not "I'll check ammonia in the next day or two." Instead, it should be "Oh, my water change was too small, I'm still at the maximum toxicity I want (to keep gill damage away) and in the next few hours the ammonia is likely to go upward on me, so I need another water change right now and next time I'll make the water change a bigger percentage."

OK, enough with that topic. Glad you got the hang of the siphon starting. That was a great tip by CheniseMummy. I tend to not think of the other end of the siphon because mine goes down a 50 foot hallway and is far away from me! Great idea to put your thumb over the other end if its right there! Also, good that your tetras and cory are looking healthy - its always good to observe their behavior (but note of course that your test kit is now another bit of data you have and fish will sometimes look quite healthy until shortly before excess toxins in the water do them in.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[trellis]

No, you are still not "getting it." (I can't believe how hard it is for these LFS bad advice episodes to die for our beginners!) 50% water changes are not doing you any good (in the learning sense).. You need to do a really large change and then see how perky and happy your fish look and that will psychologically free you from this bad advice syndrome I feel is happening.

This idea that somehow the "old" water is helping to keep your fish safe and protecting them from some sort of "shock" is just left-over advice from decades ago (when OM47 and I were much younger and keeping tanks, lol ) Sure, there are rare situations that we call "old tank syndrome" where a tank has been absolutely neglected for years and the heavy metals and mineral content have shot off the chart but this is -not- your situation. Your water is very, very much like your tap water (unless I'm missing something. There's no ammonia in your tap water is there?)

Again, its the learning-the-idea I'm after here (not the absolute 0.25 this particular time per se) and getting you in same thinking pattern that I feel the experienced aquarists here have. If you only do a 50% water change and then still have an ammonia level of 0.25ppm, the feeling you should have is not "I'll check ammonia in the next day or two." Instead, it should be "Oh, my water change was too small, I'm still at the maximum toxicity I want (to keep gill damage away) and in the next few hours the ammonia is likely to go upward on me, so I need another water change right now and next time I'll make the water change a bigger percentage."

OK, enough with that topic. Glad you got the hang of the siphon starting. That was a great tip by CheniseMummy. I tend to not think of the other end of the siphon because mine goes down a 50 foot hallway and is far away from me! Great idea to put your thumb over the other end if its right there! Also, good that your tetras and cory are looking healthy - its always good to observe their behavior (but note of course that your test kit is now another bit of data you have and fish will sometimes look quite healthy until shortly before excess toxins in the water do them in.)

~~waterdrop~~

It's not because I think the old water is good for the fish, it's just the logistics of doing a big water change I'm not sure about! What do I do about my heater and filter? Do I turn them off while the water level is low?

 

[AlanTh]

Sounds to me like you have no confidence at all in your filtration systems. You are therefore doing water changes to substitute the filters? Why aren't your filters working as they should?

 

[trellis]

Sounds to me like you have no confidence at all in your filtration systems. You are therefore doing water changes to substitute the filters? Why aren't your filters working as they should?

I am doing water changes because that's what everyone here has told me to do!!! I think the filter is working ok but I was under the impression they are not efficient until they have matured???

 

[Liverbird36]

I have a second bucket that I keep just for aquarium keeping, and when doing very big changes I put the filter and heater in the bucket so as not to dry out the media, and the heater on in the bucket so the water doesn't get too cold and kill of the good bacs. TBH though, i'm so quick at re-filling as it's only 64ltrs that I rarely take them out. Whatever you decide, when the water level drops really low you must turn the heater and filter off.

Sounds to me like you have no confidence at all in your filtration systems. You are therefore doing water changes to substitute the filters? Why aren't your filters working as they should?

I am doing water changes because that's what everyone here has told me to do!!! I think the filter is working ok but I was under the impression they are not efficient until they have matured???

your filter is working just fine, you are just in the process of developing the necessary bacs to deal with all the nasties in the tank. The advice others have given you is spot on. You must keep up the water changes if you have any ammonia present. there is no problem in how your filter is running at all.

 

[OldMan47]

Unplug the heater and the filter before you drain for a large water change. Right now my betta tank has only an inch of water left in it and is slowly refilling. My own case is even worse because my tap water has 4 ppm of nitrites in it. I am stealing water from other tanks to do a large water change on the betta tank. That tank with only an inch of water had a half inch a few minutes ago and should have a full 18 inches in it when full. It is a 20 gallon tank. Logistics are much easier to deal with if you are willing to do the necessary large changes because it takes far less water to do it right just once than what it takes to do a bunch of small, say 30%, changes.

 

[waterdrop]

Sounds to me like you have no confidence at all in your filtration systems. You are therefore doing water changes to substitute the filters? Why aren't your filters working as they should?

Hi AlanTh and Welcome to trellis' thread in the beginners section.

Filtration systems and Water Change Maintenance are related in some ways but basically they are separate topics and separate maintenance skills. There are many things that water changes accomplish that standard filters can't. To complicate matters, trellis is in a Fish-In Cycling situation currently (as mentioned) which means the filter is not yet working (a biofilter does not start to work until the correct two species of autotrophic bacteria have been grown to a large enough size to get things going.)

Why not start your own thread here and the members can probably discuss some of the interesting differences between the various functions of filters and of water changes?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[trellis]

Ok, I bit the bullet and did a 75% water change. There was still a trace of ammonia afterwards but certainly no more than 0.25. The fish seem quite happy - even the cory has had a bit of a wriggle about though has gone back to being sedentry. I shall leave it for a couple of days now I think - don't want to keep stressing them out! I am going away for the weekend though so will do another change before I go on Thurs night - how big should that be do you think - 10% or 25%???

 

[OldMan47]

I am glad to hear that your fish are looking better Trellis. My betta tank is also responding nicely to my huge water change. The fish are now swimming around as if they owned the place, they really do you know. After two days with no water changes my chemistry was good enough tonight that I took a chance and fed them. I think I am over the hump on that tank but I was working with a clone so rapid cycling is expected, not an unusual thing at all. Keep an eye on that trace of ammonia. If it starts to build, do not hesitate to do a massive water change. The fish can be expected to respond as they did to that 75% water change. They will almost always look better after a large but needed water change than they did before the change. My Betta simplex went from some rather aggressive flashing activity to looking like they were ready to start breeding. That was quite a big behavior change in my mind.

 

[frogmarch1987]

Ok, I bit the bullet and did a 75% water change. There was still a trace of ammonia afterwards but certainly no more than 0.25. The fish seem quite happy - even the cory has had a bit of a wriggle about though has gone back to being sedentry. I shall leave it for a couple of days now I think - don't want to keep stressing them out! I am going away for the weekend though so will do another change before I go on Thurs night - how big should that be do you think - 10% or 25%???

Just remember that the danger of the ammonia and nitrite FAR outweighs any danger from stressing the fish during a water change (this phrase is something that waterdrop often says).

DON'T leave it a couple of days, because you don't need to worry about stressing the fish, as long as you are careful and sensible when doing your water changes. As waterdrop has previously said, if you have anything above 0 ammonia or nitrite, you need to do another water change asap (preferably now).

As for thursday night, you will need to do another 75% water change (or even larger if you get away with it). if you can arrange for someone to come in and change the water whilst you're away, that would be helpful otherwise your ammonia and nitrite levels may get quite high whilst you're away