Bacteria In A Bottle, Does Is Work?

[Fishy friend2]

Hi, I'm amazed how well Seachem Stability seems to work! Tried it for the first time out of interest. Used it with some well used filter media in a new 70l tank. Fed some pure ammonia in. Day 3 and ammonia is processing at around 2.0 ppm per day, nitrites are at 0.0 and nitrates are at 5.0.

Hi Pern,

Using a product in conjunction with mature media doesn't show anything about the product. Mature media can instantly cycle a tank for a certain level of bioload. In this instance, "Stability" could be doing absolutely nothing, while the mature media is doing all the work. It would be impossible to tell from this where the credit lies.

+1 In My Experience it instantly cycles a tank

 

[snazy]

It may have worked for you and that's great but the fact still remains Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira need to breathe and need to eat. There is no way around this it's fact that can not be sidestepped or forgotten. There is always at least one person per forum that calmed that it worked for them and perhaps they were just extremely lucky. One of the very few whose cycles were extremely fast in comparison. But as soon as you break the debate down into the realm of scientific fact...

I don't think that using the terms "breathe" and "eat" is technically correct. Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira are autotrophic, which means that they produce their own food by performing chemosytnesis using ammonia and nitrite combined with an oxygen source in order to convert these to the relevant nitrite and nitrate, and reproduce if enough of ammonia and nitrite are present. But they don't breathe or eat in the sense a human does and will definately not "suffocate" in a few minites if neither of these are present.

To answer your question, I don't believe bacteria can hibernate either.

They actually do go into hibernation and this is a scientific fact. Although I don't know how is this used to "bottle" the bacteria since I don't have the patent for Tetra Safe Start unfortunately.

It is proven for Nitrosomonas(ammonia-oxidizing) that it decreases it's efficiency when Ph goes below 7.0 and it finally goes into a dormant state(hibernates)when Ph hits 6.0 and below.It is also actually scientifically proven that Nitrospira(nitrite-oxidizing) are inhibited and cannot multiply in water that contains significant concentrations of ammonia and as a rusult, existing populations of Nitrospira actually become dormant when ammonia is present in high concentrations(hence the nitrogen cycle waiting period for nitrites taking longer to appear and multiply since ammonia was crippling them). Nitrospira also, (same as Nitrosomonas) is an aerobic type of bacteria-needing oxygen to oxidize the nitrite, but unlike other type of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria like Nitrobacter(that was previously thought to be the correct one for fresh aquaria), Nitrospira thrives when low amounts of oxygen and nitrites are present, not the other way around. Nitrobacter on the other hand needs high amount of oxygen and nitrites to survive.

Please. I mean these things are not complex. They don't store fat for the lean months when they run out of food or oxygen it's a wrap for them, Period!

From what I have read, they can't have used oxygen and food(ammonia and nitrite) to bottle the bacteria, because it will die from it's own waste. And it is rather extracted in pure substance that does not contain either, in order to go into a dormant state instead and survive for a certain period of time. Since however, it does not go into a "spore" state like other bacteria, it is affected by adverse wheather conditions and it will have difficulty to survive at 35C/95F,will be less efficient below 18C/64F, and will die completely at 0 degrees or boiling temperature for example.

 

[Fishy friend2]

Thanks for contributing to this thread, TBH you have been one of the most knowledgable people regarding this topic, that i have ever met once again, thank you

 

[pern]

Yes, thank you, a point well made. Last time I cycled with the same amount of media of about the same age it took 3 weeks to get to this point without additives. It may be coincidence, as you say, but I'm choosing to believe the product was a big factor in the progress : )

 

[Primous]

Ok so after asking you for the science in several posts your concerned with my non-scientific terms such as breathe and eat lol. You regurgitate a lot of lofty claims all of which are taken from Dr T who is trying to sell these bottles. Which brings me back to the "pizza and french fries becoming vegetables by law." argument.

When you can produce some independent scientific study that states that these bacs

A. Go into hibernation
B. No longer need to breath (or whatever terminology you feel most comfortable with)
C. No longer need to eat (or consume/feed/sustain themselves etc)

Again, I'll be more than happy to take a look at it and adjust my position according to the scientific facts but until that point, I'm going to leave this thread alone because the debate to me, is bordering on the farcical. But before that I'm going to go back to earlier this year (not physically lol) when a hobbyist on another forum went through (or rather his state did) a hurricane. While he was able to keep the ammonia count at zero via water changes and the aquarium relatively warm by covering it with a number of blankets. He was without power for just under 3 weeks. He knew, just like everyone else on this plant specific forum knew, that his bacs started dying off after about 3 days. They were in a filter that had been running for years but after in just under 3 weeks his bacs had died back to the point where they couldn't handle the A&N produced by his stock so he had to start a fish in cycle. Granted it took about a month for his filter to be on par with his stock because he had some bacs survive. But they took a hit. This is not uncommon. Power cuts are not that uncommon in this hobby but the difference is that the inexperienced will worry about their fish. The experienced will be way more concerned about their bac colony.

And that's pretty much my last post in this thread until the evidence which refutes the huge body of data, experiments, and studies that have been done on the nitrogen cycle is made available.

*Goes off to order a medium sized vegetable from pizza hut*

 

[snazy]

You regurgitate a lot of lofty claims all of which are taken from Dr T who is trying to sell these bottles

Nope, this info is from independent sources and I only posted what is scientifically proved. Nearly every hobbist knows for example that the lower the Ph, the more non-toxic ammonia is present, but it also stalls the cycle as Nitrosomonas go into hibernation and can eventually die, probably Dr T too
You just seem to ignore some scientists and approve what's convenient for you to believe. Or are you an aquatic scientist yourself?

Ok so after asking you for the science in several posts your concerned with my non-scientific terms such as breathe and eat lol.

Why do you want me to give you a scientific proof? And how exactly I am supposed to do that? I based my opinion on the fact that Tetra Safe start cycled my tanks in a week. Basically what you are asking me to do is to say that UFO must have cycled my tanks in one week, and I am a raving lunatic, because it is scientifically not possible? And until I give you a scientific proof that my tanks did cycle in a week, you won't believe it? There is obviously no way I can prove this via a forum, is there? I wish I could....
You tend to ignore proven scientist at your convenience, so how am I, just a simple person going to convince you anything at all, regardless..
I just shared my experience with the product and there is obviously a bit of doubt shown from other members whether what I am saying is true or not. I understand that completely and it is a normal human behaviour.
There must be a factor that affects its success, as it seems to have worked for some and not for others.
It is worth sharing your experience with bottled stuff, regardless whether it worked for you or not, so all of us can compare the conditions at which it was used, whether anything affects it, etc.. and finally come to a conclusion, or the proof Primous wants
This seems like a good forum, so it will be interesting if some old veterans that used the older version Bio-Spira have opinion on the product as well.

@Primous: So am I correct to presume that you have tried any of these "useless" bottled bacteria products?
If not a problem, have you kept a log that will show us at what conditions it did not work. Science is not "googling in internet" and become "opinionated" on a certain topic because "others" have thought so, or you have "heard" so. Science is trial and error, facts in black and white.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I don't think that using the terms "breathe" and "eat" is technically correct. Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira are autotrophic, which means that they produce their own food by performing chemosytnesis using ammonia and nitrite combined with an oxygen source in order to convert these to the relevant nitrite and nitrate, and reproduce if enough of ammonia and nitrite are present. But they don't breathe or eat in the sense a human does and will definately not "suffocate" in a few minites if neither of these are present.

So where is the ammonia and nitrite coming from in the bottle when they have used up all that is provided? And where is the oxygen when kept under anaerobic conditions, such as a closed bottle?

As a MT certified lab tech, with experience in Microbiology, I can say that there is not a liquid media that will keep a bacteria alive and viable in anaerobic conditions without a continual food source. he sole purpose of bacteria culturing media is the give the bacteria a food supply that is adequate for colonization. There is no way to do this in a bottle, unless you are opening the bottle everyday and feeding the little bugs. While Nitrobacter species can live in anaerobic conditions (it is not a strict anaerobe, which is why it can live off of oxygen as well) there is not a nutritional supply to give it a year long shlef life. The only way to preserve a bacteria, and keep it viable to colonize later, is to freeze dry it. Then the bacteria is no longer active, and stays alive in a dormant state that does not require any type of nutrition. This is the way we preserve bacterial cultures to do quality control. So I do know that freeze drying bacteria does keep it alive.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

A. Go into hibernation Bacteria can in fact go dormant, but it would normally be if they are forced to, such as unacceptable conditions. Bacteria may lie dormant in wintertime. Freeze dried bacteria are a live but they can be termed as hybernating
B. No longer need to breath Certain types of Nitrobacter species with nitrify ammonia under anaerobic (without oxygen) condition but still do require some form of gas to breath. So in essence, they can live without oxygen, but they will need a CO2 source to compensate
C. No longer need to eat (or consume/feed/sustain themselves etc)A bottled bacteria may be kept viable for a few days with the food source in the media, but they will eventaully die. The gasses released while they consume said food cource would provide conditions inadequate for survival

So in conclusion, you are right. Bacteria doesnt just go into hibernation without reason, bacteria does need an air supply, whether it be CO2 or oxygen or whatever other gas of its choosing, and it does need sustanance for survival.


If anyone wants to know my source, its called Microbiology 101

@Primous: So am I correct to presume that you have tried any of these "useless" bottled bacteria products?
If not a problem, have you kept a log that will show us at what conditions it did not work. Science is not "googling in internet" and become "opinionated" on a certain topic because "others" have thought so, or you have "heard" so. Science is trial and error, facts in black and white.

Science is not just trial an error, it is also based on whats been proven and published, which is where research prior to trial comes in. Withouth proper temperatures and controlled environment, there really isnt a way for a bottle sitting on a store shelf to provide an environment capable of keeping an ammonia reliant bacteria from starving in a bottle that doesnt not have a constant supply of needed gasses. Any book can tell you that. If you cannot provide conditions necessary for survival, they will die, regardless of the claims made by the production company. This is not trial and error, this is scientific PROVEN fact.

 

[Fishy friend2]

So now I have come to a cunclusion that I am better off not wasting my time and money on this stuff

 

[soybean]

Hooray. Close and pin!

 

[Fishy friend2]

Hooray. Close and pin!

+1 it should be pinned with all the helpful information!

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I agree. I do not want to have to type all that again

 

[Fishy friend2]

I agree. I do not want to have to type all that again

Lol

 

[Primous]

@snazy yup, pretty much most of us start out by taking advice from our lfs who are there to sell us something which is a huge mark up to them. So in short yes, I used 3-4 of these bottled bacs repeatedly. Unfortunately I didn't document it, I just wasted my money blindy.

Since the science was brought back I just thought I'd come back and urge Dieses Madchen to preach

 

[snazy]

So where is the ammonia and nitrite coming from in the bottle when they have used up all that is provided? And where is the oxygen when kept under anaerobic conditions, such as a closed bottle?
So where is the ammonia and nitrite coming from in the bottle when they have used up all that is provided? And where is the oxygen when kept under anaerobic conditions, such as a closed bottle?

As a MT certified lab tech, with experience in Microbiology, I can say that there is not a liquid media that will keep a bacteria alive and viable in anaerobic conditions without a continual food source. he sole purpose of bacteria culturing media is the give the bacteria a food supply that is adequate for colonization. There is no way to do this in a bottle, unless you are opening the bottle everyday and feeding the little bugs. While Nitrobacter species can live in anaerobic conditions (it is not a strict anaerobe, which is why it can live off of oxygen as well) there is not a nutritional supply to give it a year long shlef life. The only way to preserve a bacteria, and keep it viable to colonize later, is to freeze dry it. Then the bacteria is no longer active, and stays alive in a dormant state that does not require any type of nutrition. This is the way we preserve bacterial cultures to do quality control. So I do know that freeze drying bacteria does keep it alive.

Well, that's the point. Why on earth would you want the bacteria in a bottle to colonize itself while in the bottle? If there is ammonia, nitrite and obtainable oxygen in the bottles, the bacteria will not go into a dormant state, but will start producing it's own food, eat it and then produce waste such as ammonia-nitrite and nitrite-nitrates, which in turn will kill it because of the waste produced and lack of conditions for complete nitrogen cycle. Also, in order to convert it to dormant state, you must somehow prevent it from being able to use oxygen/ammonia/nitrites and stop producing/colonizing itself while in the bottle. I personally don't think that they bottle it with "food" source and I stated that above in one of my other posts.

The only way to preserve a bacteria, and keep it viable to colonize later, is to freeze dry it.

You may be aware that Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira can't be dried as they need moisture/water to survive and will certainly die under conditions needed for drying such as very low and very high temperature. I am guessing you are talking about Heterotrophic type of bacteria, not the Autotrophic Nitrosomonas and Nitrospiras. They die at freezing and boiling temperaturs, so they can't be freeze dried.
Heterotrophic bacteria on the other hand can, and is also present in aquaria, but unlike Autotrophic bacteria which uses non organic matter to survive(like ammonia/nitrite/oxygen), Heterotrophic bacteria uses organic matter, like fish waste directly before it goes into ammonia, but is not as effective as it's autotrophic brothers.

@ Primous

No longer need to breath Certain types of Nitrobacter species with nitrify ammonia under anaerobic (without oxygen) condition but still do require some form of gas to breath. So in essence, they can live without oxygen, but they will need a CO2 source to compensate

I don't think that's correct. Nitrobacter species responsible for nitrite/nitrate converstion can not perform nitrite to nitrate converstion in anaerobic conditions(when there is no oxygen) and also it is proven that Nitrobacter thrives in a nitrogen system rich on oxygen, unlike Nitrospira species. Some Nitrobacter species might well live in anaerobic conditions, but while at these conditions, they perform a completely different function when at this state, and I am pretty sure they can't convert nitrite to nitrates in anaerobic conditions.