Questions on beneficial bacteria

MattW

𝚂𝚞𝚙𝚙𝚘𝚛𝚝𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝙼𝚎𝚖𝚋𝚎𝚛
Staff member
4x Tank of the Month 🏆
Global Moderator ⚒️
Fish of the Month 🌟
Joined
Jul 18, 2021
Messages
1,656
Reaction score
2,051
Location
Greater Manchester
Sorry if these questions seem a tad newbie. My experience on the micro side of this hobby is pretty minimal.

How long can beneficial bacteria live without an active food source?
Will it survive 24 hours in stagnant water?
Will old & mature substrate be "choked" if used as a bottom layer and covered by fresh substrate? (mature substrate originally coming from the top layer of an old setup)
Is mixing/adding two different mature substrates/filters and their BB colonies into one tank a good idea?
 
Well, I'm a music teacher, but I've read Walstad's "Ecology and the Planted Aquarium" three times, and I've spent a lot of time wading through natural substrates (while fly fishing). So that makes me pretty much an expert.

For what it's worth, my answers to your questions would be:
1. At least 48 hours. I've never tried longer than that.
2. Probably. But I'd throw in an airstone for good measure.
3. Probably, but still better than nothing. The ideal would probably be to mix the two together so the old stuff can seed the new. Are we talking sand or gravel? Gravel probably gets enough water circulation to allow the good bacteria to survive and populate the new substrate. With sand, it might just get smothered. But I'm pretty sure it's still worth putting some old stuff in there.
4. Probably, as long as it's free of pathogens and other nasty critters. Biodiversity is our friend.

Hope that's helpful.
 
First, unless using under gravel filtration, putting old substrate with bacteria below new substrate will likely kill the bacteria due to lack of oxygen. Granted that the bacteria will 'migrate' to the new substrate but I would imaging that the population would be greatly reduced.

In a tank that does not use under gravel filtration the bacteria can last for a while but not forever. In this case it is best to use filter media to transport the bacteria to a new tank. Still, ammonia is needed if there are no fish in the long run. This is solved simply by adding pure ammonia to the tank.

If neither of the above is the case that still does not mean the bacteria will die. From several articles I've viewed, instead of being killed the bacteria will go into a dormant stage. Consider Dr. Tim's One And Only bottles of bacteria. There is about a year of shelf life yet there is no ammonia. This tends to help verify the bacteria going dormant instead of being killed.
 
I am sure there is some science behind beneficial bacteria going dormant such as the Dr Tim's example, but.... My test results (ammonia and nitrite) on multiple occasions show that if a mature filter media is kept wet in the filter, and the filter is turned off or on and there is no new food source (no fish or new ammonia), after about a week, that filter media will be the same as brand new media. It will need to cycle again from scratch. That's my experience. Either that, or the beneficial bacteria for me, go "dormant" and stay dormant. They down tools and never come back to work!
 
If I can part hijack the thread Matt, there was another question I was going to post at some point.

Do we think there comes a point when beneficial bacteria simply run out of space on filter media surface? I'm assuming so, (maybe the same principle as media becoming "clogged")...... otherwise we could have a "mega mature" filter sponge that is say... 5 inches x2 inches x2 inches big (like an internal filter size), that would always be sufficient for a 2 foot tank no matter the bio load? (as long as the bio load is increased slowly).

I ask this because I have an example. In a 2 foot fry tank I have, the filter media I have cannot be much more mature than it is. It's been managing a high bio load for well over a year, maybe two years. I'm not talking about it being full of sludge, i give it a very gentle squeeze about once a fortnight. The integrity of the sponge seems fine to me, it still has that "spring" in it's step.

However, I have learned that this filter can only take a certain amount of bio load before I will get a detectable nitrite reading (never ammonia).

Do you think that by now, there is not not enough surface area on this sponge for new nitrite eating bacteria to populate? Am I fully staffed with nitrite bacteria eating workers?
 
How long can beneficial bacteria live without an active food source?
Several weeks without a food source.

Will it survive 24 hours in stagnant water?
No. The beneficial filter bacteria are aerobic and require oxygen. If the water becomes stagnant and there is insufficient oxygen for the bacteria, they die. Lack of oxygen is why filters die during power failures.

Will old & mature substrate be "choked" if used as a bottom layer and covered by fresh substrate? (mature substrate originally coming from the top layer of an old setup)
Beneficial filter bacteria tend to live in the top 1-2 inches of substrate because that is where the oxygenated water is. Courser substrate like gravel will allow more oxygen and water further down and the good bacteria might live in the top 2-3 inches. Fine substrate like sand will not let as much water and oxygen down and the aerobic bacteria tend to live in the top 1/2 to 1 inch of sand.

Is mixing/adding two different mature substrates/filters and their BB colonies into one tank a good idea?
Mixing different types of substrate is not a good idea. If you want to mix substrates, use the same type and size. You might have brown gravel and water to add a different coloured gravel. That is fine if both types of gravel are the same size. However, if you mix a fine substrate like sand or fine gravel with a course gravel, the fine stuff fills up the gaps between the gravel and reduces the oxygen and water that gets into the gaps.

The same applies to people using gravel or sand to cap aquarium plant substrates. They are generally different sizes and end up mixing and reducing the beneficial effect.
 
Do we think there comes a point when beneficial bacteria simply run out of space on filter media surface? I'm assuming so, (maybe the same principle as media becoming "clogged")...... otherwise we could have a "mega mature" filter sponge that is say... 5 inches x2 inches x2 inches big (like an internal filter size), that would always be sufficient for a 2 foot tank no matter the bio load? (as long as the bio load is increased slowly).

I ask this because I have an example. In a 2 foot fry tank I have, the filter media I have cannot be much more mature than it is. It's been managing a high bio load for well over a year, maybe two years. I'm not talking about it being full of sludge, i give it a very gentle squeeze about once a fortnight. The integrity of the sponge seems fine to me, it still has that "spring" in it's step.

However, I have learned that this filter can only take a certain amount of bio load before I will get a detectable nitrite reading (never ammonia).

Do you think that by now, there is not enough surface area on this sponge for new nitrite eating bacteria to populate? Am I fully staffed with nitrite bacteria eating workers?
Biological aquarium filters will develop as many bacteria as required to use up the available nutrients (ammonia & nitrite) in the water. If you have a stable number of fish and feed the same or similar amount each day, the colony of good bacteria will grow big enough to consume any ammonia or nitrite that is produced, and then it won't get any bigger. If you increase the number of fish, shrimp, snails, etc, in the aquarium, or you feed more food or feed more often, more bacteria will grow to balance out the cycle.

Filters generally have plenty of space for beneficial bacteria but if the filter becomes clogged up due to lack of cleaning, then less oxygenated water can pass through it and some of the good bacteria can die. We also lose beneficial filter bacteria whenever we clean the filter media. Their numbers rebound pretty quickly and most types of beneficial filter bacteria double in number every 10-12 hours at tropical temperatures (24C).

---------------------

How long after feeding do you get nitrite readings and what are the levels in numbers?

Having nitrite for a short time (10-30 minutes) after feeding is common because it takes the first colonies of beneficial bacteria some time to remove the ammonia and convert it to nitrite. Once the nitrite starts to appear (generally within 5 minutes of feeding), the other colonies of filter bacteria start to eat the nitrite and convert it to nitrate. If you add a heap of food at once, the ammonia levels can jump and with a small or slow moving filter, it can take a while to get rid of the ammonia and convert it to nitrite. Air operated filters and small power filters tend to suffer from this more than bigger power filters that pump a lot more water through the filter media in the same time frame.

If you are getting low readings of nitrite for 30 minutes after feeding but it clears after that, you should be fine. If you get high readings or the readings last for an hour or more, it could be harming the fish.
 
Biological aquarium filters will develop as many bacteria as required to use up the available nutrients (ammonia & nitrite) in the water. If you have a stable number of fish and feed the same or similar amount each day, the colony of good bacteria will grow big enough to consume any ammonia or nitrite that is produced, and then it won't get any bigger. If you increase the number of fish, shrimp, snails, etc, in the aquarium, or you feed more food or feed more often, more bacteria will grow to balance out the cycle.

Filters generally have plenty of space for beneficial bacteria but if the filter becomes clogged up due to lack of cleaning, then less oxygenated water can pass through it and some of the good bacteria can die. We also lose beneficial filter bacteria whenever we clean the filter media. Their numbers rebound pretty quickly and most types of beneficial filter bacteria double in number every 10-12 hours at tropical temperatures (24C).

---------------------

How long after feeding do you get nitrite readings and what are the levels in numbers?

Having nitrite for a short time (10-30 minutes) after feeding is common because it takes the first colonies of beneficial bacteria some time to remove the ammonia and convert it to nitrite. Once the nitrite starts to appear (generally within 5 minutes of feeding), the other colonies of filter bacteria start to eat the nitrite and convert it to nitrate. If you add a heap of food at once, the ammonia levels can jump and with a small or slow moving filter, it can take a while to get rid of the ammonia and convert it to nitrite. Air operated filters and small power filters tend to suffer from this more than bigger power filters that pump a lot more water through the filter media in the same time frame.

If you are getting low readings of nitrite for 30 minutes after feeding but it clears after that, you should be fine. If you get high readings or the readings last for an hour or more, it could be harming the fish.
@Colin_T thank you. Read to the end here if you have got time. That's a really interesting take on it. I've learned from this thread more about the importance of oxygenated water being in contact with the beneficial bacteria. For me, this also relates (in a way) how some people (in my opinion) overestimate the population/usefulness of beneficial bacteria in the substrate (excluding under gravel filtration).

I'm not actually concerned with my 2 footer fry tank. I am doing 80% water changes every 3 or 4 days, although I would prefer to do something like 50% a day. I used it as an example Colin because (without being able to provide direct measurements/evidence), I am pretty convinced the space for beneficial bacteria is this tank is "maxed out" somehow. I base this on my feeding regime and occasional nitrite positive results. However, that kind of goes against some of what you are saying about beneficial bacteria re-populating to meet demand. Perhaps my filter sponge is not in as good condition as I think it is.

I'm a testing geek (I think a bit opposite to you @GaryE with that), but we all love different elements of his hobby.

It's interesting what you say Colin about nitrite possibly appearing after 5 minutes of feeding. Let me give you my experience from someone that goes through one API liquid nitrite test kit about every 6 weeks (so that's a lot of tests). I also vouch for API liquid nitrite kit as close to 100% as is possible. I've tried others. The results I get form this kit are very consistent with what I would "expect" or "nearly expect" having been doing tests for over 10-15 years on/off (I think).

By the way, I don't test nitrite almost every day because I don't know what I am doing with my filters, or my fish are constantly exposed to nitrite, not at all. I just like to keep learning about stocking/feeding/biological filtration. Probably 95% of the nitrite tests I do come back undetectable. The other 5% is probably me pushing the boundaries with feeding and/or making a mistake with over feeding (still happens after all these years, rarely, but I must admit). I usually pride myself on only feeding for as long as my fish can eat in 30-45 seconds once a day (a bit longer for fry/juveniles, and up to 5 times a day feeding for them if i am on the ball and wanting good growth).

Or I might be pushing the boundaries with how much biological filtration I am running and get caught a little short. The nitrite results will tell me.

Usually, I am running about 6 tanks, none of them are large, the biggest is about 30 US gallons. Everything is internal filtration. No plants (hope to change that soon for the purpose of nitrate reduction).

So, what I can share about nitrite appearing relative to the last feed.......... I've tested at all kinds of times after feeding, from 10 minutes to 24 hours. I can tell you that I've never had a nitrite reading until at least a few hours after feeding (and even that's very rare). I am not saying that makes you wrong Colin, it's just my experience. However, I must admit, I never thought nitrite would actually show up that fast, so I'll make a point of checking this more. Maybe I've been missing it, or not doing enough tests within the first hour of feeding. It's very easy for me to detect a nitrite reading with API as anything other than a nice very light sky blue means detectable nitrite. I appreciate we are talking about off the counter test kits and not best testing technology here.

I've found the "peak" concentrations in nitrite (if there is even any nitrite detected) is about 8-10 hours after feeding. So what I do......... if i want to test my biological filtration for a given tank, I will feed and then test for nitrite about 8-10 hours later. This basically means feeding in the morning, so I can track the results before I go to bed at night. My experience might be different to others.

Does anyone have feedback on my next point here?

In 10-15 years testing, I could count on both hands the amount of times I've had an ammonia reading that did not prove to be a false positive (when re tested two or three times). Hardly ever happens.

Even on my tanks that might get a significant nitrite spike of around 0.5ppm to 1ppm nitrite (which is very rare as that means I've F***** up basically with feeding or filtration), I never seem to get ammonia levels that are detectable on my test kit (and I've used a few for ammonia) - also, important to note, I do not have plants in the tanks I am referring to.

This is why I always say to people, if you could only have one test kit, get a nitrite test kit. Again, my experiences may differ to others.
 
I would say times for nitrite to appear would depend on what type of filter is in/ on the aquarium. A fast flowing filter will pump water to the bacteria faster than a slow flowing filter. This would allow the bacteria to start breaking down the ammonia sooner compared to a slow flowing filter like an air operated sponge filter. Apart from that I wouldn't expect nitrite to appear 8-10 hours after feeding. That's an odd one.

you mention you have checked the level presumably randomly over a 24 hour period. Have you tried checking the ammonia and nitrite every hour for 12-24 hours after feeding?
-------------------

When we cleaned sponge filters in the shop we squeezed them out really well. Quite often the first few squeezes didn't produce much gunk but if you kept at it you start to get a bucket of black water. It's possible your sponge filter is gunked up a bit in the middle even though you clean it lightly on a regular basis. If it is gunked up, water won't be flowing through it that well and it might be why you have a slight nitrite reading sometimes.

-------------------

Ammonia is more toxic than nitrite but it also depends on the pH of the water. Ammonia is more toxic in water with a pH above 7.0.
Nitrite is more toxic in water with a pH below 7.0.

Ideally you want to check ammonia and nitrite if there's an issue with the fish. If you only test for one of these you could have a clear test (0ppm) with the test kit you have but there could be something else in the water that doesn't get tested for.
eg: you only test for nitrite but you might have ammonia.
eg: you only test for ammonia but you could have nitrite.
 
you mention you have checked the level presumably randomly over a 24 hour period. Have you tried checking the ammonia and nitrite every hour for 12-24 hours after feeding?
I'm going to try this out of interest. I'll do it on a day when I work from home and feed the fish early morning and see what happens hourly with ammonia, but especially nitrite. If I get literally no detectable levels (which I probably will not from other spot tests I've done), I'll up the feeding one day and see what happens hourly. I'll probably experiment between dried food and frozen foods. I'll make the beneficial bacteria have an action packed day, and then do a large water change the following day as an apology to the fish for spiking the nitrate :)
 
There is a lot of misinformation above. There is science on all of this.

The nitrifiers reproduce by dividing, they do not form spores. So they would not have existed for many millions of years if they had no strategy for surviving hard times. They do go dormant. They are able to sense when ammonia or oxygen levels drop drastically and they respond by slowing down their activity greatly. When the ammonia and or oxygen levels are restored, the bacteria "wake" up and get back to work. The research on this has shown several things to be true.

1. The amount of time it takes for them to recover depends on their condition when they go dormant. The better that condition, the longer they can last in a dormant state and the more quickly they can recover when nutrients return.
2. They do not feed when dormant which means there is a limit to how long they can remain viable. Individuals will be dying every day, but at a very slow rate. And there is no reproduction unless what they need returns.
3. Different strains of bot AOB and NOB have different tolerances for dealing with starvation as to how fast they lose individuals and how quickly they can recover when needed nutrients are restored.
If the above were not the case there could not be any form of bottled bacteria which worked to seed a new tank or other situations where they are needed.

Joke Geets, Nico Boon, Willy Verstraete, Strategies of aerobic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria for coping with nutrient and oxygen fluctuations, FEMS Microbiology Ecology, Volume 58, Issue 1, October 2006, Pages 1–13, https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1574-6941.2006.00170.x

Abstract​


In most natural environments as well as in engineered environments, such as wastewater treatment plants, ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) experience fluctuating substrate concentrations. Several physiological traits, such as low maintenance energy demand and decay rate, cell-to-cell communication, cell mobility, stable enzymes and RNAs, could allow AOB to maintain themselves under unfavourable circumstances. This review examines whether AOB possess such traits and how these traits might offer advantages over competing organisms such as heterotrophic bacteria during periods of starvation. In addition, within the AOB groups, differences exist in adaptation to and competitiveness under conditions of high or low ammonia or oxygen concentrations. Because these findings are of importance with regard to the ecology and activity of AOB in natural and engineered environments, concluding remarks are directed towards future research objectives that may clarify unanswered questions, thereby contributing to the general knowledge of the ecology and activity of ammonia oxidizers.
full paper here https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/58/1/1/468326?view=extract

Next, because most of the bacteria in question form biofilms in which they live attached to hard surfaces, they pretty much must have all their nutrients delivered to them, They do not actively seek them out. However, some portion of them will be motile. The numbers will be smaller or larger based on nitrogen levels. However, this does not exceed 10% or the total numbers. When nitrogen disappears the jon of the motile ones is to move to where there is what they need. of course in nature there are place to which they can move which is not the case in our tanks.

It is also important to understand how nitrite effects fish. When there is nitrite in the water it enters fish via their gills.
Nitrite enters the bloodstream through the gills and turns the blood to a chocolate-brown color. Hemoglobin, which transports oxygen in the blood, combines with nitrite to form methemoglobin, which is incapable of oxygen transport. Brown blood cannot carry sufficient amounts of oxygen, and affected fish can suffocate despite adequate oxygen concentration in the water. This accounts for the gasping behavior often observed in fish with brown blood disease, even when oxygen levels are relatively high.

Once inside fish how long does it take to works its way out?

3.2. Mechanism of detoxification

The red blood cells of fish contain methaemoglobin reductase reconverting methaemoglobin to haemoglobin (Cameron, 1971; Huey and Beitinger, 1982). This occurs steadily and restores the normal proportion of haemoglobin within 24–72 hours if a fish is transferred to water that lacks nitrite
from http://vetmed.agriculturejournals.cz/pdfs/vet/2005/11/01.pdf

As to where the bacteria will colonize in an aquarium, the answer is pretty basic. The can live on any hard surface where what they need is available as long as it is out of the light. The bacteria and Archaea involved are photophobic and prefer to be in darker conditions. So they live inside media, in the substrate, on decor both natural and fake and even on live plants.

Usually the place they are found in the greatest numbers is inside the media of filters. This is because the circulation and is good there and they also tend to expose the bacteria to the highest levels of oxygen. But, if a filter is small or if one allows the media to clog, the bacteria will respond by reproducing in other parts of a tank in order to pick up the slack.

As far as i am concerned it should not be possible for a normal feeding to cause detectable nitrite in an aquarium. Nitrite is produced because of ammonia resulting in more nitrite than the microorganisms for handing it can process. So one should see an ammonia spike as well. Nitrite is not an ingredients in fish food. So for it to produce nitrite it has to first be broken down into ammonia and then converted to nitrite. In a properly established tank normal feeding should nor appear as the bacteria present will handle it before it can accumulate to where it can be tested.

This is just common sense. Once a tank is fully cycled and adapted to the fish load etc. which are the sources of ammonia, there is balamnce between the the bacteria such that both ammonia and nitrite will be consumed as fast as they are produced. This is the definition of a fully cycled tank. How can we know when a new tank is cycled? The answer comes from the world of fishless cycling. We can add ammonia to a tank and within a given time period we cannot test either ammonia nor nitrite. What we might detect is nitrate. The only way this will change is if a greater ammonia concentration is created than the bacteria can handle instantly.

It is importan to realize they in a cycled stocked tank that the amminia bing produced is not haopening the way if does duriing a fishless cycle. Here we basically add a full day's worth of ammonia in a single dose. So we need to see it all handled in less than a day. Then we add a full fish load and what happens. The ammonia is produced continuously all day and night but at a rate that the bacteria are able to handle it it immediately and we cannot detec eithe ammonia or nitrite. Howerver, if we do something which greatly increases the source of ammonia we will see a spike in it and then in nitrite.

Moreover, what food we feed matters in terms of ammonia creation. AGan we learn this from the world of fishless cycling. Before we learned to use ammonia or ammonium chloride to produce tha ammonia needed to cause the bacteria to colonizem we used other means to create that ammonia. One was adding fish food to a tank. But, as Dr. Hpvanec has taught us in terms of using food to do a fisless cycle,

Using shrimp or fish food​


One of the more popular fishless cycling methods is to buy a few dead shrimp at the grocery store, cut them up into chunks and add them to the aquarium. The shrimp decay, which produces ammonia to feed the nitrifying bacteria. There are a few drawbacks with this method, one being that the hobbyist really has no way to know how much ammonia is being produced by the decaying shrimp, and the aquarium does not look very good with dead shrimp laying on the bottom. Also, the organic material of the shrimp can cause bacteria blooms which turn the aquarium water cloudy. This method works but it takes time and patience and you will probably see a spike in ammonia and nitrite if you add a medium to heavy load of fish after the initial cycling. Note that some people use flake fish food instead of shrimp but this is not recommended because flake food does not have much organic material compared to shrimp and so does not add a lot of ammonia to the water, but you can use cut fish instead of shrimp. Hint: to speed up the decay of the shrimp/fish and produce more ammonia, add some DrTim’s Aquatics Waste-Away sludge busting bacteria to the tank.
So, the above teaches us that just adding foods it takes time for it to decay and create ammonia let almost for that ammonia to be be processed into nitrite. Dr. T. suggest using another bacteria to accellerate the process of converting the food to ammonia.

I do not believe that putting a normal amount of food into a cycled stocked tank can produce nitrite in a matter of minutes. The process to get from food tonitrite is simply not that fast.l And since a cycled tank had a propper balance of ammonia and noitrite oxidizers.........

Plus we also know that what food is involved can prodice more or less ammonia and thus more or less nitrite. And then there is this. If feeding were indeed creating excess nitrite, the result of this should be a rise in the level of nitrate which flollows the from the creationg or more nitrite. And when live plant are addded, this alters things a fair amount since the plants can use ammonium much faster than ther bacteria or archaea can use ammonia. And the plants to not create nitrite from the ammonia they consume.

Some of the other things in our tank water can cause false nitrite readings. Some dechlors can cause them. ewxcess nitrate levels may d this also. Expired test kits will do it xan do this as well. Even the fertilizers we add can cause false nitrite redings. Givenall the things that get added fo fish food, I doubt the science even knows which of them might cause a false nitrite reading.

Then there is the fact that it takes time for nitrite getting into a foish for its effects to leave a fish. What this requires is an exrtend period in water with 0 nitrites. So if we feed fish more than one a day, this should increase the accumulation in the fish. But for there to be serious levels of nirtite cause by excess feeding, it should not only take time to appears and there should also be a spike in ammonia first.

And then there is the fact that some strains of notrospira we might have in a tank are the ones able to process ammonia to nitrate in a a single step. When these are present adn a normal feeding does increase the ammonia before it increases the nitrtie, then no nitrite will result.

Finally, I know for a fact that a colony of ammonia oxidizers is able to process an greater level of ammonia before the increase is enough to increase the reproduction rate of the bacteria. They have a bit of flexibility in this respect. I have not seen research on this ability for the nitrite oxidizers, but I would guess that they also have a bit of flexibility similar to the ammonia oxidizers.
 
There is a lot of misinformation above. There is science on all of this.

The nitrifiers reproduce by dividing, they do not form spores. So they would not have existed for many millions of years if they had no strategy for surviving hard times. They do go dormant. They are able to sense when ammonia or oxygen levels drop drastically and they respond by slowing down their activity greatly. When the ammonia and or oxygen levels are restored, the bacteria "wake" up and get back to work. The research on this has shown several things to be true.

1. The amount of time it takes for them to recover depends on their condition when they go dormant. The better that condition, the longer they can last in a dormant state and the more quickly they can recover when nutrients return.
2. They do not feed when dormant which means there is a limit to how long they can remain viable. Individuals will be dying every day, but at a very slow rate. And there is no reproduction unless what they need returns.
3. Different strains of bot AOB and NOB have different tolerances for dealing with starvation as to how fast they lose individuals and how quickly they can recover when needed nutrients are restored.
If the above were not the case there could not be any form of bottled bacteria which worked to seed a new tank or other situations where they are needed.

Joke Geets, Nico Boon, Willy Verstraete, Strategies of aerobic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria for coping with nutrient and oxygen fluctuations, FEMS Microbiology Ecology, Volume 58, Issue 1, October 2006, Pages 1–13, https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1574-6941.2006.00170.x

full paper here https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/58/1/1/468326?view=extract

Next, because most of the bacteria in question form biofilms in which they live attached to hard surfaces, they pretty much must have all their nutrients delivered to them, They do not actively seek them out. However, some portion of them will be motile. The numbers will be smaller or larger based on nitrogen levels. However, this does not exceed 10% or the total numbers. When nitrogen disappears the jon of the motile ones is to move to where there is what they need. of course in nature there are place to which they can move which is not the case in our tanks.

It is also important to understand how nitrite effects fish. When there is nitrite in the water it enters fish via their gills.


Once inside fish how long does it take to works its way out?


from http://vetmed.agriculturejournals.cz/pdfs/vet/2005/11/01.pdf

As to where the bacteria will colonize in an aquarium, the answer is pretty basic. The can live on any hard surface where what they need is available as long as it is out of the light. The bacteria and Archaea involved are photophobic and prefer to be in darker conditions. So they live inside media, in the substrate, on decor both natural and fake and even on live plants.

Usually the place they are found in the greatest numbers is inside the media of filters. This is because the circulation and is good there and they also tend to expose the bacteria to the highest levels of oxygen. But, if a filter is small or if one allows the media to clog, the bacteria will respond by reproducing in other parts of a tank in order to pick up the slack.

As far as i am concerned it should not be possible for a normal feeding to cause detectable nitrite in an aquarium. Nitrite is produced because of ammonia resulting in more nitrite than the microorganisms for handing it can process. So one should see an ammonia spike as well. Nitrite is not an ingredients in fish food. So for it to produce nitrite it has to first be broken down into ammonia and then converted to nitrite. In a properly established tank normal feeding should nor appear as the bacteria present will handle it before it can accumulate to where it can be tested.



It is importan to realize they in a cycled stocked tank that the amminia bing produced is not haopening the way if does duriing a fishless cycle. Here we basically add a full day's worth of ammonia in a single dose. So we need to see it all handled in less than a day. Then we add a full fish load and what happens. The ammonia is produced continuously all day and night but at a rate that the bacteria are able to handle it it immediately and we cannot detec eithe ammonia or nitrite. Howerver, if we do something which greatly increases the source of ammonia we will see a spike in it and then in nitrite.

Moreover, what food we feed matters in terms of ammonia creation. AGan we learn this from the world of fishless cycling. Before we learned to use ammonia or ammonium chloride to produce tha ammonia needed to cause the bacteria to colonizem we used other means to create that ammonia. One was adding fish food to a tank. But, as Dr. Hpvanec has taught us in terms of using food to do a fisless cycle,


So, the above teaches us that just adding foods it takes time for it to decay and create ammonia let almost for that ammonia to be be processed into nitrite. Dr. T. suggest using another bacteria to accellerate the process of converting the food to ammonia.

I do not believe that putting a normal amount of food into a cycled stocked tank can produce nitrite in a matter of minutes. The process to get from food tonitrite is simply not that fast.l And since a cycled tank had a propper balance of ammonia and noitrite oxidizers.........

Plus we also know that what food is involved can prodice more or less ammonia and thus more or less nitrite. And then there is this. If feeding were indeed creating excess nitrite, the result of this should be a rise in the level of nitrate which flollows the from the creationg or more nitrite. And when live plant are addded, this alters things a fair amount since the plants can use ammonium much faster than ther bacteria or archaea can use ammonia. And the plants to not create nitrite from the ammonia they consume.

Some of the other things in our tank water can cause false nitrite readings. Some dechlors can cause them. ewxcess nitrate levels may d this also. Expired test kits will do it xan do this as well. Even the fertilizers we add can cause false nitrite redings. Givenall the things that get added fo fish food, I doubt the science even knows which of them might cause a false nitrite reading.

Then there is the fact that it takes time for nitrite getting into a foish for its effects to leave a fish. What this requires is an exrtend period in water with 0 nitrites. So if we feed fish more than one a day, this should increase the accumulation in the fish. But for there to be serious levels of nirtite cause by excess feeding, it should not only take time to appears and there should also be a spike in ammonia first.

And then there is the fact that some strains of notrospira we might have in a tank are the ones able to process ammonia to nitrate in a a single step. When these are present adn a normal feeding does increase the ammonia before it increases the nitrtie, then no nitrite will result.

Finally, I know for a fact that a colony of ammonia oxidizers is able to process an greater level of ammonia before the increase is enough to increase the reproduction rate of the bacteria. They have a bit of flexibility in this respect. I have not seen research on this ability for the nitrite oxidizers, but I would guess that they also have a bit of flexibility similar to the ammonia oxidizers.
Thank you, I will read those papers you linked.

I can testify to dechlorinators causing a false positive for nitrite. I did a thread on that a while back. My API conditioner can cause false positives.

As for there needing to be an ammonia reading to have a nitrite reading later on in the day, that is not my experience with many tests (not including cycling). I am not disputing your science. Of course, the ammonia must be there for the nitrite to spike, but my theory is that the ammonia is getting processed rapidly and not getting picked up on the test kit.

Perhaps, because I have been focusing on nitrite tests, I have missed some small ammonia readings after a heavy feed in my fry tank. I'll check more for ammonia now, just to see the relationship.

The only ammonia readings I get seem to be false positives. I know that if I am not pristine with my ammonia test tubes, this happens, especially if I've previously used the test tube for nitrite (and even if the tube appears clean). Since I was more careful (i.e. no cross contamination) with the test tubes for ammonia testing (API) - I've not had a false positive - I also now rinse the tube in tank water, then refill it with the same tank water, and test.

As for the idea of beneficial bacteria waking up and getting back to work, it's never been my experience.

I'm such a geek in some ways, I'll probably just do a proper experiment one day with records. Put a very mature filter media in a small tank. Leave it in the water for a week. No power, no ammonia source. Then start cycling the tank. See if performs better than I would expect a brand new filter media. I know to do a true experiment, I'd have to do another tank with new filter media and cycle that the same way. Maybe I will do that. It will be nowhere near good enough to really "count" for anything, but it will satisfy my curiosity. Maybe you will be quoting my papers in 10 years time TwoTankAmin :)

This is what I did with Tropco Fish (in the UK) and their mature media they sell. I did it twice. They posted mature media to me and I then started adding Dr Tim's ammonia and recording the results. I can't remember the finer details, but without a doubt, their product works. It speeds up the cycle significantly faster than Dr Tim's or Tetra Safe Start for me. It sped it up so much, that some might call it an instant cycle. I can't remember how many hours it took to get 2ppm ammonia to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite, but it was impressive.
 
I have done this with Dr. Tim's multiple times. From a scratch I can cycles filters in a bio-farm in 10-12 days. I then move the filters into their new tanks and as soon as I do so I then stock those tanks fully or even overstock them. I never have issues. I use the Fritz dry ammonium chloride. I can add this as powder to the bio farm. But when I need it for a single tank of 50 gals. or less I mix my own liquid. Oddly enough I use the empty bottle from Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride for this and mix it using some of my RO/DI water.

In the recent past I had a 33L with my dual Matten filter set-up. I had no fish in it for about 6 -8 weeks and needed to put in 21 L173 plecos from 1 - 1.75 inches. I hit it with a single dose of ammonium chloride and tested in 24 hours. It read 0 and in went the fish. All are still fine in that except for the one I sold. I know this because i had to resize them all and catch the one I sold about 6 weeks ago.

It is important to be aware of a few things when we talk about letting the bacteria go dormant. For this there must be no or almost no ammonia in the tank. If there is a very small amount it must be consumed by other things or evaporated before the nitrifiers might use it. If there is a lower level of ammonia present then all that happens is the number of bacteria will shrink until it is in balance with the lower level.

When I have a cycled tank with no fish in it and I want to keep is ready for fish, I will add ammonia. I will do so ever 2 -3 days as that is all that is needed to keep the colony thriving. it is rare that I will do what I explained above and let it go dormant for some time.

In tanks there are multiple strains of ammonia oxidizers present. How long each strain will need to resume a high level of ammonia consumption varies. Some will do so pretty fast whole others will need more time.

When the bacteria go dormant, everything slows way down for them. They do not feed but they are also not active so they do not have to feed/ However, while they will not be reproducing, individuals will still be dying. These are not being replaced. So, over time the colony must shrink. eventually is gets so small that there are no longer enough to resume the level of ammonia oxidation they were anle to do before they went dormant.

This is why Dr. Tim tells users that the bacteria in his bottles are useful for about 6 months if kept at room temperature and a year if they are kept refrigerated. After these times there are no longer enough individuals left to resume processing at the same level as when they went into the bottle. However, all one needs to start a new colony is one viable cell. But this would mean it takes a lot longer for it to multiply fast enough to form a viable colony for a long time. What Dr. Hovanec tells us is that after the 6/12 month time frames there will likely not be enough bacteria left to make a new cycle go much faster than if we did not add the remaining bacteria at all. Normally we get our seed bacteria mostly from our tap water and out of the air.

Over the past 25 years years I would guess I have cycled about 200 tanks in total. That is because I would use a number of cycled tanks when I sold in vendor rooms or did room sales at events. Also, every summer I would set up 6 -8 tanks on my screened terrace which was essentially outdoors. The need to cycle such tanks all at once is why I eventually went to cycling filters in a bio-farm rather than individually. It is less work that way. Also as I ramped up my permanent tank numbers and then began increasing the sizes I was cycling new tanks.

I have also read all three of Dr. H's papers as well as his patent applications for One and Only. He is how I learned that the bacteria do not stop working as the pH drops. As the pH drops under 7.0 more and more of the ammonia is in the form of ammonium. By about 6.0 it al all NH4. The bacteria can also use this but not with the same efficiently as they can process NH3. If this were not the case, there would be no fish in acid waters.

Tarre, S., Beliavski, M., Denekamp, N., Gieseke, A., De Beer, D. and Green, M., 2004. High nitrification rate at low pH in a fluidized bed reactor with chalk as the biofilm carrier. Water Science and Technology, 49(11-12), pp.99-105.

A typical steady state bulk pH of about 5 was established in a nitrifying fluidized bed with chalk as the only buffer agent. In spite of the low pH, high rate nitrification was observed with the nitrification kinetic parameters in the chalk reactor similar to those of biological reactors operating at pH>7. Various methods were used to determine the reasons for high rate nitrification at such low pH including (i) determination of bacterial species, (ii) microsensor measurements in the biofilm, and (iii) comparison of nitrification performance at low pH with a non-chalk fluidized bed reactor. Fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) using existing 16S rRNA-targeted oligonucleotide probes showed common nitrifying bacteria in the low pH chalk reactor. The prevalent nitrifying bacteria were identified in the Nitrosomonas oligotropha, Nitrosomonas europeae/eutropha, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira related groups, all well known nitrifiers. Microelectrode measurements showed that the pH in the biofilm was low and similar to that of the bulk pH. Finally, reactor performance using a non-chalk biofilm carrier (sintered glass) with the same bacterial inoculum also showed high rate nitrification below pH 5. The results suggest that inhibition of nitrification at low pH is highly overestimated.


Here is another study on the main topic:

Bollmann ABär-Gilissen M, Laanbroek HJ. 2002. Growth at Low Ammonium Concentrations and Starvation Response as Potential Factors Involved in Niche Differentiation among Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria. Appl Environ Microbiol 68:.
https://doi.org/10.1128/AEM.68.10.4751-4757.2002

ABSTRACT​

In nature, ammonia-oxidizing bacteria have to compete with heterotrophic bacteria and plants for limiting amounts of ammonium. Previous laboratory experiments conducted with Nitrosomonas europaea suggested that ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are weak competitors for ammonium. To obtain a better insight into possible methods of niche differentiation among ammonia-oxidizing bacteria, we carried out a growth experiment at low ammonium concentrations with N. europaea and the ammonia oxidizer G5-7, a close relative of Nitrosomonas oligotropha belonging to Nitrosomonas cluster 6a, enriched from a freshwater sediment. Additionally, we compared the starvation behavior of the newly enriched ammonia oxidizer G5-7 to that of N. europaea. The growth experiment at low ammonium concentrations showed that strain G5-7 was able to outcompete N. europaea at growth-limiting substrate concentrations of about 10 μM ammonium, suggesting better growth abilities of the ammonia oxidizer G5-7 at low ammonium concentrations. However, N. europaea displayed a more favorable starvation response. After 1 to 10 weeks of ammonium deprivation, N. europaea became almost immediately active after the addition of fresh ammonium and converted the added ammonium within 48 to 96 h. In contrast, the regeneration time of the ammonia oxidizer G5-7 increased with increasing starvation time. Taken together, these results provide insight into possible mechanisms of niche differentiation for the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria studied. The Nitrosomonas cluster 6a member, G5-7, is able to grow at ammonium concentrations at which the growth of N. europaea, belonging to Nitrosomonas cluster 7, has already ceased, providing an advantage in habitats with continuously low ammonium concentrations. On the other hand, the ability of N. europaea to become active again after longer periods of starvation for ammonium may allow better exploitation of irregular pulses of ammonium in the environment.

Full paper here https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/aem.68.10.4751-4757.2002
 

Most reactions

Back
Top