Bacteria In A Bottle, Does Is Work?

[soybean]

Should this be pinned? It does come up as a question in threads quite often.

 

[snazy]

I took a while in responding to this properly because I was trying to find a blog I came cross a few years back. It was a hobbyist from the US who on entry to this blog got a lab to take a microscopic look into what is actually in these bottles.

May I ask you which products did this guy test and how many years ago? You are basing your opinion on one blog written years ago by unknown writer? I am basing mine on personal experience with a product.

My argument is that Tetra Safe start worked for me, but I do agree that other similar products may not have been successfull in the past. As far as I was able to research, Tetra Safe Start has not been on the market for very long time at all and also the company that created the refrigerated version of it-BioSpira only opened in 1990, which means anything based on previous research could not have worked as it contained the wrong nitrite bacteria:

There is much debate within science (not to mention the hobby) as to exactly which species of autotrophic bacteria perform the vital functions of the “Nitrogen Cycle” in our tanks. Historically, it was thought the species associated with the conversion of ammonia into nitrite was Nitrosomonas europaea and that the species associated with the conversion of nitrite into nitrate were Nitrobacter, Nitrospina, and/or Nitrococcus. This “belief” was based upon the correct fact that these are the bacteria primarily responsible for maintaining the nitrogen cycle in soil. To this day, most bacterial additives (quick cycle products) available to aquarium hobbyist contain these bacteria. Unfortunately, it has been discovered that this is not the correct combination of bacteria that exists in our tanks. It’s no wonder that aquarist worldwide have come to the combined conclusion that these “quick cycle” products do not work. They (as in, the industry) are packaging bacteria that function in soil and selling it to us as something



Research conducted by Timothy A. Hovanec (formerly of Marineland Labs, now the founder of Dr. Tim’s Aquatics) has identified the correct combination of autotrophic bacteria performing the nitrogen cycle in our tanks are Nitrosomonas marina (converts ammonia to nitrite) and Nitrospira (converts nitrite to nitrate). I am aware of only two “bacterial additive” products that contain these bacteria, Dr. Tim’s Aquatics “One and Only” and Tetra SafeStart. United Pet Group has purchased Marineland. In the process, Dr. Tim bought out Marineland Labs (the creator of BioSpira, which is no longer available), forming “Dr. Tim’s Aquatics”. United Pet Group also owns Tetra. Tetra has subsequently released Tetra Safe-Start, which appears to be BioSpira repackaged in a form that does not require constant refrigeration (just as One and Only does not require refrigeration). It may be that availability of actual functioning product, containing the correct combination of living bacteria, may remain limited to these two products due to patent restrictions. Dr. Tim and the former Marineland Labs (now Dr. Tim’s Aquatics) hold the patent and United Pet Group/Tetra received co-ownership via their purchase of Marineland.

 

[snazy]

We as hobbyists are concerned with 2 bacterias. The first is Nitrosomonas it converts ammonia into nitrite. The second is Nitrospira which converts nitrite into nitrate. These bacterias have two characteristics we as hobbyists and for the sake of this conversation need to pay close attention to.

A. They need oxygen in the water to live
B. They need a 'food' source to survive.

A link from Dr Tim's website explaining how bacteria survives in a bottle:


http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/Blog_twitter/files/51b49660af3d5e3f63eceae8c27a461b-4.html

 

[Fishy friend2]

Should this be pinned? It does come up as a question in threads quite often.

i think it should be pinned, there is alot of info in this thread

We as hobbyists are concerned with 2 bacterias. The first is Nitrosomonas it converts ammonia into nitrite. The second is Nitrospira which converts nitrite into nitrate. These bacterias have two characteristics we as hobbyists and for the sake of this conversation need to pay close attention to.

A. They need oxygen in the water to live
B. They need a 'food' source to survive.

A link from Dr Tim's website explaining how bacteria survives in a bottle:


http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/Blog_twitter/files/51b49660af3d5e3f63eceae8c27a461b-4.html

this is really interesting

 

[Primous]

I took a while in responding to this properly because I was trying to find a blog I came cross a few years back. It was a hobbyist from the US who on entry to this blog got a lab to take a microscopic look into what is actually in these bottles.

May I ask you which products did this guy test and how many years ago? You are basing your opinion on one blog written years ago by unknown writer? I am basing mine on personal experience with a product.

My argument is that Tetra Safe start worked for me, but I do agree that other similar products may not have been successfull in the past. As far as I was able to research, Tetra Safe Start has not been on the market for very long time at all and also the company that created the refrigerated version of it-BioSpira only opened in 1990, which means anything based on previous research could not have worked as it contained the wrong nitrite bacteria:

There is much debate within science (not to mention the hobby) as to exactly which species of autotrophic bacteria perform the vital functions of the “Nitrogen Cycle” in our tanks. Historically, it was thought the species associated with the conversion of ammonia into nitrite was Nitrosomonas europaea and that the species associated with the conversion of nitrite into nitrate were Nitrobacter, Nitrospina, and/or Nitrococcus. This “belief” was based upon the correct fact that these are the bacteria primarily responsible for maintaining the nitrogen cycle in soil. To this day, most bacterial additives (quick cycle products) available to aquarium hobbyist contain these bacteria. Unfortunately, it has been discovered that this is not the correct combination of bacteria that exists in our tanks. It’s no wonder that aquarist worldwide have come to the combined conclusion that these “quick cycle” products do not work. They (as in, the industry) are packaging bacteria that function in soil and selling it to us as something



Research conducted by Timothy A. Hovanec (formerly of Marineland Labs, now the founder of Dr. Tim’s Aquatics) has identified the correct combination of autotrophic bacteria performing the nitrogen cycle in our tanks are Nitrosomonas marina (converts ammonia to nitrite) and Nitrospira (converts nitrite to nitrate). I am aware of only two “bacterial additive” products that contain these bacteria, Dr. Tim’s Aquatics “One and Only” and Tetra SafeStart. United Pet Group has purchased Marineland. In the process, Dr. Tim bought out Marineland Labs (the creator of BioSpira, which is no longer available), forming “Dr. Tim’s Aquatics”. United Pet Group also owns Tetra. Tetra has subsequently released Tetra Safe-Start, which appears to be BioSpira repackaged in a form that does not require constant refrigeration (just as One and Only does not require refrigeration). It may be that availability of actual functioning product, containing the correct combination of living bacteria, may remain limited to these two products due to patent restrictions. Dr. Tim and the former Marineland Labs (now Dr. Tim’s Aquatics) hold the patent and United Pet Group/Tetra received co-ownership via their purchase of Marineland.

It may have worked for you and that's great but the fact still remains Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira need to breathe and need to eat. There is no way around this it's fact that can not be sidestepped or forgotten. There is always at least one person per forum that calmed that it worked for them and perhaps they were just extremely lucky. One of the very few whose cycles were extremely fast in comparison. But as soon as you break the debate down into the realm of scientific fact...

If you or anyone else can explain how you feed and oxygenate these bacterias while they packaged, transported around the globe, and then sat on your stockholders/lfs shelf I'll be happy to read through it. I ask for this specifically because as soon as this question is posed you often get an answer that flees and I mean flees from scientific fact. Special blend of herbs and spices type of answer. Fact is you cut of oxygen from an animal or organism that rely soley on oxygen to breathe such as Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira and they die. There is no debate. Dr T, yes, I'm aware of his work and products and the seemingly scientific claims that come with them from those that back him. But there is a system of payola that runs business and politics many don't recognize. You give the right person or group money and they'll say whatever you ask them to. For hilarious example Republican senators were lobbied (given money) by the relevant organization and in return they voted to recognize and enact a law which recognized pizza and french fries as vegetables...

When Dr T or anyone can explain how these bacs are maintained I'll gladly change my mind but until that point, I'm sticking with the science as is!

 

[Fishy friend2]

gosh.... i didnt think that this thread was going to last this long and have that much valuable info, i honestly think that it should be pined. it would be a shame for this thread to be lost, with all of this Important information regarding the bacteria

 

[Primous]

It's pretty hilarious. Dr T has in the past by suggestion discredited other bacs in a bottle in favor of his. But now his bacs put on some special cloak that will keep them from dying out?

Please. I mean these things are not complex. They don't store fat for the lean months when they run out of food or oxygen it's a wrap for them, Period! You should email Dr T and ask him for the independent scientific study that verifies his claim of the bacs going into survival mode. There are none! among Dr T and his peers there is probably much agreement but these things have been studied for a long time. Way before either of us were born and yet it's only Dr T (and others that want to sell you water/dechlor at an extremely high mark up that has this survival mode theory.

Bottom line @fishyfriend if you want to buy these things then go ahead. We have two differing opinions which lean towards scientific fact and scientific opinion. The choice of how you spend your money is solely down to you. But I'm going to tell you like somebody told me. Look at the science and base your decisions in this hobby on that.

 

[snazy]

Bottom line @fishyfriend if you want to buy these things then go ahead. We have two differing opinions which lean towards scientific fact and scientific opinion. The choice of how you spend your money is solely down to you. But im going to tell you like somebody told me. Look at the science and base your decisions on that.

I am basing my opinion on the fact that using Tetra Safe start I cycled both my fish tanks in about a week time.
To be honest, I don't care how it worked, but it worked. Period

 

[Fishy friend2]

Thanks for all your replies, I have decided to at least try safestart and see how it goes. Something that I read about the bacteria is that it hibernates, is this true?

 

[Primous]

Mc Donalds/fast food backed group + lobbying (money) + republicans = A bill to recognize Pizza and french fries as vegetables.

 

[Fishy friend2]

Mc Donalds/fast food backed group + lobbying (money) + republicans = A bill to recognize Pizza and french fries as vegetables.

What does this have to do with anything

 

[soybean]

I think he's saying people will support/back anything given enough incentive, financial or otherwise, and really all that matters is scientific proof.

To answer your question, I don't believe bacteria can hibernate either.

 

[Fishy friend2]

Okay, thank you for answering my question, and thanks for explaining that for me

 

[pern]

Hi, I'm amazed how well Seachem Stability seems to work! Tried it for the first time out of interest. Used it with some well used filter media in a new 70l tank. Fed some pure ammonia in. Day 3 and ammonia is processing at around 2.0 ppm per day, nitrites are at 0.0 and nitrates are at 5.0.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Hi, I'm amazed how well Seachem Stability seems to work! Tried it for the first time out of interest. Used it with some well used filter media in a new 70l tank. Fed some pure ammonia in. Day 3 and ammonia is processing at around 2.0 ppm per day, nitrites are at 0.0 and nitrates are at 5.0.

Hi Pern,

Using a product in conjunction with mature media doesn't show anything about the product. Mature media can instantly cycle a tank for a certain level of bioload. In this instance, "Stability" could be doing absolutely nothing, while the mature media is doing all the work. It would be impossible to tell from this where the credit lies.