Bacteria In A Bottle, Does Is Work?

[ShinySideUp]

I have started a new tank using Nutrafin Cycle and a small amount of filter media from my old, established tank. I put fish in as soon as the water cleared (after 10 days) and now, after four weeks, the tank is fully stocked and I have lost no fish and I don't expect to now. The ammonia is practically nil, nitrites are zero, ph is about 6.2 and nitrates are about 15 ppm.

This is not necessarily an endorsement of bacteria in a bottle but it seems to have worked. I would not have given any credit to bacteria in a bottle as common sense tells me that unless the bacteria have created spores then they are going to be dead almost from the moment they were bottled. It may be the case that this B-ina-B is not bacteria at all but merely a small dose of ammonia with some enhancement that promotes bacterial growth.

I would like to think that perhaps some constituent in the Nutrafin Cycle enhanced the ability of the small amount of old filter material to flourish bacterially much faster than it would have normally.

I am of the opinion that bacteria-in-a-bottle, on it's own, would have no effect on filter culture at all but with a seed perhaps so.

From the experience I have gained from starting new tanks and from the wealth of information I have received and gleaned from this forum it is my opinion that a fish-in method is far better than artificially starting a filter but only if fish are introduced gradually. Should you wish to add artificial enhancements then do so with a small, metaphorical, pinch of salt.

Cheers

Martin

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The bottled stuff is ammonium hydroxide.

Well, if that's the case than it won't work with Tetra Safe start as it needs free amonia. Or it will work, but just slower

The "free" ammonia also is converted to ammonium hydroxide at lower pHs, but ammonium hydroxide will turn to "free" ammona at higher pHs.

 

[snazy]

The "free" ammonia also is converted to ammonium hydroxide at lower pHs, but ammonium hydroxide will turn to "free" ammona at higher pHs.

I am aware of this. But what happens when you dump it in acidic water as for example mine is straight from the tap(Although ammonium is also converted by the bacteria in some slow rate, the bacteria does need free ammonia to properly colonize itself and cycle in a shorter period?) Therefore when you dump Tetra Safe Start in acidic water with ammonium hydroxide added, instead of free ammonia, most of you "bottled" bacteria will seize to function. At 6.5 Ph, the efficiency of Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira is 50% less at least, and not really multiplying that fast, which will theoretically cycle your tank at least twice as slow. I haven't tried cycling with ammonium yet, so I can't comment further, just thinking theoretically what may happen.

 

[snazy]

But before that I'm going to go back to earlier this year (not physically lol) when a hobbyist on another forum went through (or rather his state did) a hurricane. While he was able to keep the ammonia count at zero via water changes and the aquarium relatively warm by covering it with a number of blankets. He was without power for just under 3 weeks. He knew, just like everyone else on this plant specific forum knew, that his bacs started dying off after about 3 days. They were in a filter that had been running for years but after in just under 3 weeks his bacs had died back to the point where they couldn't handle the A&N produced by his stock so he had to start a fish in cycle. Granted it took about a month for his filter to be on par with his stock because he had some bacs survive. But they took a hit.

Hi Primous,
What is your scientific explanation on this?
I'll give you my useless opinion.
Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira are not present in the water column, but attach to filter media and surfaces like glue. That's why for example you can't cycle a new tank by just transferring water from an established tank, as there is no useful bacteria in it. So when the above person had a power cut due to hurricane, the filter stopped working and therefore the bacteria stopped getting it's source of oxygen and ammonia. Therefore, for the ammonia produced by fish was not being cycled as it was not in too much contact with the necessary bacteria. Any water that circles around a media is not normally cycled(This is why we buy filters with higher water flow as this insures more water passes through the media in certain amount of time, otherwise we will by just dumping a sponge in the corner ). So here is when the ammonia starts building up in an aquarium. It is normal for some of the bacteria to die even in favorable conditions, but it's multiplying rate compensates for this when there is no problem.

While he was able to keep the ammonia count at zero via water changes

That's an amazing statement. From my experience during a normal fish in cycle with not enough bacteria present, it is nearly impossible to keep the ammonia at 0, unless I do back to back water changes every 2 hours, and even then this is not a guarantee. How was he able to do that via water changes, warming them up on the gas heater I presume? And spending the 3 weeks with the fish in a hurricane disaster?

They were in a filter that had been running for years but after in just under 3 weeks his bacs had died back to the point where they couldn't handle the A&N produced by his stock so he had to start a fish in cycle.

I don't see a proof here that his bacteria died after 3 days. It just seized to function, as ammonia/oxygen was not coming to it via the filter flow. It will be also insteresting to know how was he able to keep the water "relatively warm" as temperature drop to a certain extent will kill the bacteria.

Granted it took about a month for his filter to be on par with his stock because he had some bacs survive. But they took a hit

There was more "stock" producing ammonia as well, as other type of organizms may have died due to temperature drop, water conditions, etc..So his filter would have needed some time to colonize enough bacteria to cope with the new conditions. But you as you said, "some bacs survived". So presuming bacteria in a bottle is manufactured in way higher amounts than what we need in an aquarium for normal cycle, even if some is non-viable, may be enough may survive to give you a boost in a new setup...

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The "free" ammonia also is converted to ammonium hydroxide at lower pHs, but ammonium hydroxide will turn to "free" ammona at higher pHs.

I am aware of this. But what happens when you dump it in acidic water as for example mine is straight from the tap(Although ammonium is also converted by the bacteria in some slow rate, the bacteria does need free ammonia to properly colonize itself and cycle in a shorter period?) Therefore when you dump Tetra Safe Start in acidic water with ammonium hydroxide added, instead of free ammonia, most of you "bottled" bacteria will seize to function. At 6.5 Ph, the efficiency of Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira is 50% less at least, and not really multiplying that fast, which will theoretically cycle your tank at least twice as slow. I haven't tried cycling with ammonium yet, so I can't comment further, just thinking theoretically what may happen.

Which is why when I used Safestart I dosed with baking soda to keep the pH up in the 8.0+ range, converting it back to free ammonia. In other words, it shouldn't matter where the source of ammonia comes from, whether it is from the fish or from the bottle. If the pH is low, it will be in the form of ammonium hydroxide. If the pH is high, it will be in the form of free ammonia, regardless of the source.

 

[snazy]

In other words, it shouldn't matter where the source of ammonia comes from, whether it is from the fish or from the bottle. If the pH is low, it will be in the form of ammonium hydroxide. If the pH is high, it will be in the form of free ammonia, regardless of the source.

Yeah, it will matter only if Ph is below 7.0 as below that value apparently not all available ammonia is in free form. But if someone uses Tetra with acidic water as many people's tap water is, then it will matter as even bacteria established naturally via a cycle is less efficient when the ammonia is in non-toxic form. It Therefore theoretically cycling acidic water will take longer. In certain cases, during a cycle the Ph swings a lot, regardless, and if not monitored, it may be going acidic and crippling the cycle. Also if you do fish in cycle with ammonia removers like Prime/Ammo lock that convert ammonia to non-toxic form, it will extend the time the tank cycles although fish is not subjected to toxic ammonia. Same if you cycle cold water fish tank like godlfish, it should take longer naturally, because of the low temperatures could be crippling the bacteria grow. Bacteria grows better at warmer temperatures over 25 C. I was told it should not exceed 28 C for optimum results. Ammonia should be kept less than 4ppm is also what I was told, as over this amount the nitrite bacteria is crippled and takes days to recover. So there are factors that are in place.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Agreed, which is why when doing a fishless cycle we always mention temp and pH are primary things to keep a close eye on. I'm not sure that you understand why I made the point I made earlier about ammonium hydroxide. It was mentioned that someone doesn't believe that this product can be used with bottled ammonia. That is what I was addressing. The issue is that both ammonia and ammonium hydroxide are under the same laws of nature (commonly called chemistry) whether they came from a fish or a bottle. Once it enters the water column, it will be under the rule of chemical processes. In a low pH tank with fish, ammonia produced by the fish will become ammonium hydroxide. In a higher pH fishless cycle like we recommend on this site, where you add ammonium hydroxide, it will convert to ammonia.


In other words, the source doesn't matter. All that matters is the pH of the water to determine whether it is "free" ammonia or not.

 

[snazy]

No, source of ammonia should not matter I guess. I completely agree with you. But it does matter if the other conditions are not favourable and the person in question testing this type of cycle is not aware of the consequences if the water is acidic for example. Therefore it may not have worked for some with ammonia, hence the statement it works with fish only. Problem is my water is acidic too straight from the tap for example, although after a certain period of time it naturally goes up when in the aquarium without additives or any coral/soda etc..So if I drop a bottle of tetra without waiting for a couple of days, it won't work, or not as fast.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That's why I recommend adding baking soda during the fishless cycle period. (Plus it helps to buffer the water as nitrates build up, keeping the pH nice and high.

 

[snazy]

I am just wondering as I have not used baking soda to raise the Ph, does it effect the Ph constantly, or soda needs to be added every time with a water change?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I've only used it in a fishless cycle, and would NEVER recommend it be used with fish. It does NOT stay in the tank long term and would need to be replaced if a water change were completed.


I completed a few water changes during the cycling process to keep the nitrite as low as possible (as I'd read that the nitrospira bacteria prefer levels < 0.14ppm) and I had to readjust the pH after each change to raise the pH back up to 8.0+.


If there are fish in the tank, adding crushed coral would be a much safer solution to raise pH slowly - with smaller, more frequent water changes so that the changes to the water chemistry with each water change are small.

 

[Primous]

Hi Primous,
What is your scientific explanation on this?

The exact same explanation I have given throughout this entire debate. Without oxygen and a food source the bacteria will die...

That's an amazing statement.

Really lol? Water changes keeping ammonia at zero is umm a real common thing. Oh and I think his aquarium was a little larger than the one your comparing it to to think that that's not possible.

I don't see a proof here that his bacteria died after 3 days. It just seized to function, as ammonia/oxygen was not coming to it via the filter flow. It will be also insteresting to know how was he able to keep the water "relatively warm" as temperature drop to a certain extent will kill the bacteria.

Where do you get this stuff? I have yet to mention temperature as a factor but since you have let's take a brief moment to expand on the point that "low temp kills bacs." Because I'd like to ask you how you think these bottles reach your lfs or ebay stockholder? Shipping via land where possible of course, but overseas? Thats by sea and via air right? Where very dramatic drops in temp guaranteed to occur and...

In fact let me just keep things 100% with you.

The problem I have in continuing to debate you is that you contradict yourself repeatedly. And before you ask "where" just re-read your own posts. I mean, we are fortunate enough to have a member (Dieses Madchen) who is a certified MIT lab tech with a phd and experience in this area and when they present to you scientific fact as is, your rebuttal is Dr T's talking points??? When this member stated you can freeze dry bacterias, that was information that was new to me and a simple google search proved her statement completely true and valid.

I recognize that you have to believe in bottled bacs because that's how you "cycled" but there is a huge body of work and evidence in micro biology. The nitrogen cycle is not a recent discovery. They were studying it way before they decided to add chlorine as a disinfectant to our drinking water and you can look these things up at your local library if you don't believe me. These things are not hidden. Any book on the subject will prove this for you and if you don't have time to hit your local libary then check the e-version, Google is your friend. So again I'll ask you for the following. Some independent (which does not include DR T and his friends waffling) study or verification that will provide some foundation to your claims that Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira can survive for weeks or upto a year without oxygen or sustenance.

There is a difference between Science fiction and scienctific fact. If not then I myself am captain of the Star Ship Enterprise. Our mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations to boldly...

You get the point right?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Dieses Madchen is not a phD. (but she did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I do not have a PhD, I simply asked where his was from based on his "extreme" knowledge. I do have a BSAST in Clinical Laboratory Science, and an extensive Microbiology background. I quit on the arguement as I guess I do not the the documented trial and error to compete with Wikipedia.

i figure I am going to keep doing what I am doing. My fish are happy regardless of the fact that I did not tinkle money away on products that have no basis to claim success.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I meant no disrespect in the previous comment DM. For some reason I thought the Holiday Inn comment was funny.

For some reason, which I don't fully understand, the topic of bottled bacteria gets people very upset on both sides of the argument. If it works for some people, great. If it doesn't work for others (like me) then we must use alternative (the classic water change) methods.