50 Apistos In A 10g

[tenohfive]

Ok, they may be found in large numbers, but is the wild the size of a 10 gallon tank? I think it seems cruel. I am sure a large number of Apistos in a larger tank would have the same effect.

If you look at the links I posted, you'll see this isn't me trying to recreate nature - someone else did that, and found that if done properly they can be perfectly healthy. When I say, 'someone else' I meant 'apisto specialists.' In nature it would appear that apisto's don't have territories, yet thats exactly what we create for them when we place them in a tank in the normal way.

I'd suggest people take a step down from their high horses for a second and consider this in a little more detail. Given apisto's small size, this would be no different to a heavily stocked mbuna tank - and I've yet to hear of the same people screaming that its cruel.
But yes, I'm a bad person for considering imitating a method advocated for experienced fishkeepers by other experienced fishkeepers, which in itself is an imitation of a long standing technique in practice in Malawi tanks all over the world. In fact I actually eat babies, and spend my weekends stealing disabled peoples wheelchairs. Could you please discuss it somewhere else though?


I like the idea of a sump sswm, although I agree sponge filters would probably an alternative. That depends upon room and resources really. What I'm provisionally thinking at the moment would be to setup a spare 65L (17 USG) tank with a load of indian oak or almond leaves as the substrate - a layer a couple of inches deep. Stack everywhere with (preferably new, unleached) bogwood to create a complete bogwood tangle, with the idea of it just being a maze of fish and wood. A couple of powerful sponge filters would complete that setup. As for numbers and species I'd have to look at doing a bit more research on that front. I don't know if I could mix or not - I'd imagine so. Numbers is a tricky one - whilst the figures quoted seem quite high, I'd sooner not push my luck. That said, you put too few in and you get the aggression issues. I think 30-35 would be a good number personally - enough that no-one has the opportunity to create territories, not so many that they haven't got room to swim about (bogwood tangle should help there, create countless avenues and areas for them to swim round.) And not too many as to overload filtration.

It goes without saying that I'd be testing regularly, and if it didn't work I'd have homes pre-planned for them. I am a conscientious fishkeeper and whilst the project in itself would be fun, all my fish are kept as pets - not wall decoration.

Does anyone have any practical improvements? Don't hold your breath for photo's of it happening though, I intend to take my time planning

 

[sswm]

Spacewise I would personally go with a sump. Currently I have a Lustar Hydro-Sponge Filter 4(rated for tanks up to 80 gallons) in my 10 gallon apisto breeding tank and it takes up a good chunk of the corner and I had to cut off the top of the tube as it went above the waterline so depending on what sponge filter(s) you use they could take up more room than you aniticpate and then add in the heater as well to take up some more room. With the sump all your filtration and heater can be in it and leave you with all the space you can use for the tank itself and you're gonna want it for your bogwood jungle.

What species are you thinking about? I dont see why you couldnt mix them either.
Borellii would give you a nice blue and Agassizi but the red colour would give a nice contrast of colours in the males imo

 

[degsod]

Wherer is the best place to get the IAL leaves from, I have done some searching on line but most of the sites seem expensive, like 20p per leaf etc.

 

[sswm]

if you can find an oak tree in a forest or somewhere where pesticides arent sprayed then you can collect your own leaves, just give them a cleaning

 

[degsod]

if you can find an oak tree in a forest or somewhere where pesticides arent sprayed then you can collect your own leaves, just give them a cleaning

So normal English Oak leaves are ok? Do they have to be brown?

Sorry about the dumb questions but in effect I am relearning this hobby all over again

 

[sswm]

yup once they've fallen off the tree

 

[degsod]

yup once they've fallen off the tree

Right I am off to the local woods to start shaking some branches lol

 

[sswm]

yup once they've fallen off the tree

Right I am off to the local woods to start shaking some branches lol

haha well I meant fallen off naturally once they're dead but if you do go do that let them die by themselves(going brown) before you put them in

 

[degsod]

yup once they've fallen off the tree

Right I am off to the local woods to start shaking some branches lol

haha well I meant fallen off naturally once they're dead but if you do go do that let them die by themselves(going brown) before you put them in

Lol I know, just a long wait till autum

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Ok, they may be found in large numbers, but is the wild the size of a 10 gallon tank? I think it seems cruel. I am sure a large number of Apistos in a larger tank would have the same effect.

If you look at the links I posted, you'll see this isn't me trying to recreate nature - someone else did that, and found that if done properly they can be perfectly healthy. When I say, 'someone else' I meant 'apisto specialists.' In nature it would appear that apisto's don't have territories, yet thats exactly what we create for them when we place them in a tank in the normal way.

I'd suggest people take a step down from their high horses for a second and consider this in a little more detail. Given apisto's small size, this would be no different to a heavily stocked mbuna tank - and I've yet to hear of the same people screaming that its cruel.
But yes, I'm a bad person for considering imitating a method advocated for experienced fishkeepers by other experienced fishkeepers, which in itself is an imitation of a long standing technique in practice in Malawi tanks all over the world. In fact I actually eat babies, and spend my weekends stealing disabled peoples wheelchairs. Could you please discuss it somewhere else though?

Wow, you must have some inner guilt or something. Take a breather here. Did I at any point say I was accusing you of being a bad person? Did I at any minute say the people doing this weren't 'apisto specialists' ? All I am saying, is that in my mind it seems cruel putting 50 3" fish into a 10 gallon tank, though size depends on species. I did not say it couldn't be done, or shouldn't be tried. I am not saying it is cruel as I have never tried it nor seen it done.

I think you need to really read what people say, and consider it before you post and make a fool of yourself. If this wasn't a family forum I'd have much more to say.

 

[tenohfive]

Ok, they may be found in large numbers, but is the wild the size of a 10 gallon tank? I think it seems cruel. I am sure a large number of Apistos in a larger tank would have the same effect.

If you look at the links I posted, you'll see this isn't me trying to recreate nature - someone else did that, and found that if done properly they can be perfectly healthy. When I say, 'someone else' I meant 'apisto specialists.' In nature it would appear that apisto's don't have territories, yet thats exactly what we create for them when we place them in a tank in the normal way.

I'd suggest people take a step down from their high horses for a second and consider this in a little more detail. Given apisto's small size, this would be no different to a heavily stocked mbuna tank - and I've yet to hear of the same people screaming that its cruel.
But yes, I'm a bad person for considering imitating a method advocated for experienced fishkeepers by other experienced fishkeepers, which in itself is an imitation of a long standing technique in practice in Malawi tanks all over the world. In fact I actually eat babies, and spend my weekends stealing disabled peoples wheelchairs. Could you please discuss it somewhere else though?

Wow, you must have some inner guilt or something. Take a breather here. Did I at any point say I was accusing you of being a bad person? Did I at any minute say the people doing this weren't 'apisto specialists' ? All I am saying, is that in my mind it seems cruel putting 50 3" fish into a 10 gallon tank, though size depends on species. I did not say it couldn't be done, or shouldn't be tried. I am not saying it is cruel as I have never tried it nor seen it done.

I think you need to really read what people say, and consider it before you post and make a fool of yourself. If this wasn't a family forum I'd have much more to say.

You've said outright that my plans seem cruel, Meguro has had a pop too - so yes, I do feel that its an attack on me. And I've tried to bring it back onto topic (and hopefully give a few people a little perspective in the process.) If you've got nothing better to discuss than my merits, please post elsewhere. This is a practical discussion on fishkeeping, not a place for a slanging match or discussions of inner guilt.

sswm - hmmm, a sump does seem like a good idea now thinking about it. Biggest issue would be space - what sort of size sump were you thinking for a 17G tank?

 

[AdAndrews]

heyyy, guys.. no need to get angry, what tenohfive is suggesting is perfectly reasonable, i believe that this could work, not sure for how long though, how long are they in these types of enviroments in the wild?

plus unless you ARE getting wild specimins you cant treat them as wild, im unsure about apisto's, but inbreeding can cause fish to be mostly the same on the outside but have different requirements, tank raised fish may not be accustomed to these enviroments, having been in a clear tank for the first part of their life

i would say give it a shot, but my only concern is the time.... how long will they survive like this- im not saying its cruel, but surely in the wild they are only in these conditions for a reasnably small ammount of time... plus think hoy much it would cost of buy 50 apisto's

you would definately need a sump, and as much of the equipment out of the tank as poss... for a 17g i would use a 15g sump, then you will have more water to play around with

 

[tenohfive]

Thats an option with sump size then - I've got another 17G knocking about at the moment. With regards to lifespan and whether to use wild or tank bred apisto's I'm looking to get some advice from people who've kept them this way - I thought the chances of someone on here having done so were fairly slim, but I've just signed up to an apisto specialist forum so I'm going to get some advice soon. Then I'm going to try and track down the wholesalers for the LFS I use with the best quality fish, or failing that a friend that I've helped when he started in the hobby has a family member working for a local fish wholesalers, so if buying in bulk I think prices will be much lower.

Like I say, I personally view this is being very similar to keeping malawi's (which I admit are something I've no interest in.) The principal is very much the same. Whilst I've heard the 50 figure quoted, as I mentioned somewhere above I'm looking to get a number that won't be pushing it too much and the only way to find out other than guessing is to speak to someone who's done it before.

I'll let you guys know if I do manage to get some responses

 

[meguro]

This is a practical discussion on fishkeeping

Mine says "theoretical discussion" in the title description.

how long are they in these types of enviroments in the wild?

This needs answering.

 

[degsod]

Thats an option with sump size then - I've got another 17G knocking about at the moment. With regards to lifespan and whether to use wild or tank bred apisto's I'm looking to get some advice from people who've kept them this way - I thought the chances of someone on here having done so were fairly slim, but I've just signed up to an apisto specialist forum so I'm going to get some advice soon. Then I'm going to try and track down the wholesalers for the LFS I use with the best quality fish, or failing that a friend that I've helped when he started in the hobby has a family member working for a local fish wholesalers, so if buying in bulk I think prices will be much lower.

Like I say, I personally view this is being very similar to keeping malawi's (which I admit are something I've no interest in.) The principal is very much the same. Whilst I've heard the 50 figure quoted, as I mentioned somewhere above I'm looking to get a number that won't be pushing it too much and the only way to find out other than guessing is to speak to someone who's done it before.

I'll let you guys know if I do manage to get some responses

Hi i am interested in this as well, there seems to be a shortage of good reliable info out there. Keep me/us informed of your progress