50 Apistos In A 10g

[tenohfive]

Someone expressed their disbelief in Tropical Discussion when I mentioned I'd heard about keeping 50 apisto's in a 20G tank. I'm not surprised they reacted that way, I was wrong - should be more like 50 apisto's per 10G apparently.

I'm not making this up or trolling by the way - read below

http/apistogrammaidiots.com/David_P__Soa...s/articles.html

http/www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?g...sizii&id=65

They're the places I read this idea. The theory is that in their natural environment apisto's are found in amongst a layer of fallen leaves up to an inch thick, and in huge numbers. The idea then is to replicate that by creating a tank thats filled with bogwood, then putting a big enough number in that no one fish can have a territory - much like Malawi's.

I've not tried it, though if resources ever allow I'd love to. Anyone know of anyone who has a tank running this way?

 

[degsod]

What do people do filtration wise wth that many fish in such a small space, I can see it working if you had a massive filter volume.

 

[tenohfive]

A couple of externals, maybe an internal for good measure - and a sensible level of feeding. I'm tempted to try this with an empty 65L tank I've got. Would have to source a couple of spare decent external filters, a load of bogwood (enough to pretty well fill the tank) and speak to a wholesalers about buying 50 apisto's, or see if my LFS could get hold of that many.

Might turn into a little project actually.

 

[degsod]

A couple of externals, maybe an internal for good measure - and a sensible level of feeding. I'm tempted to try this with an empty 65L tank I've got. Would have to source a couple of spare decent external filters, a load of bogwood (enough to pretty well fill the tank) and speak to a wholesalers about buying 50 apisto's, or see if my LFS could get hold of that many.

Might turn into a little project actually.

I was thinking the same thing, I am busy at the moment getting loads of bogwood. Let me know if you find a wholesaler who can do that many.

What about using a pond filter for filtration, maybe not a good idea, but it would have the volume and certainly the capacity.

 

[sswm]

I think I've seen a pic before of a guy that breeds them and kept the whole batch of fry(which were now adults in the pic) in something like a 10 gallon so that very well could have been 50+....It was very heavily planted and I remember seeing a ton of java moss with little heads poking out....so maybe if you get a bunch of bogwood, oak leaves for the bottom and a bunch of java moss throughout the bogwood then it will work...keep us updated I would like to see how this progresses.

For filtration I would think that a sponge filter would be the way to go. I think a couple of externals would provide too much water movement. So an air pump and sponge filter rated for a 60-80 gallon tank might be sufficent as long as you can stay on top of water changes and stats

 

[meguro]

Just because they've been observed in the wild like this, doesn't mean it's ideal conditions. You could keep a betta splendens in a glass of water, doesn't mean the fish is particularly happy.

 

[degsod]

Thats why I was thinking of using a pond filter which has a large capacity, so your not keeping 50 or what ever number in 10 Gallons you would be keeping them in 10 Gallons + the capacity of the filter(s)

 

[sswm]

Just because they've been observed in the wild like this, doesn't mean it's ideal conditions. You could keep a betta splendens in a glass of water, doesn't mean the fish is particularly happy.

If its been documented in the wild I would think that the conditions are better than anyone could recreate in an aquarium, nature has a way of correcting things if something isnt right...I dont think I've ever heard of a wild betta splendens being seen in water the size of a glass, so I think those are completely different arguments...

 

[degsod]

Just because they've been observed in the wild like this, doesn't mean it's ideal conditions. You could keep a betta splendens in a glass of water, doesn't mean the fish is particularly happy.

If its been documented in the wild I would think that the conditions are better than anyone could recreate in an aquarium, nature has a way of correcting things if something isnt right...I dont think I've ever heard of a wild betta splendens being seen in water the size of a glass, so I think those are completely different arguments...

I agree with what you are saying about Betta's being kept in a glass, how ever I think he was rferring to the fact theat Betta's are oftern found in muddy puddles.

I have read several articles where people are keeping Apisto's at very high stocking levels such as 50/60 per 10 galons, I have also read the converse where they say no more than 2 per 90 litres.

As everything in this hobby there are always exceptions to normal rules.

In the wild although there may be 1000's crammed into a couple of square metres the fact is the water volume they are in in probably hundreds of thousands of gallons. So if this is going to work then we will need to keep very much on top of water changes etc.

While I am writing this I am definately thinking that we will have to have a larger volume of water attached to the display area (like the central systems at the LFS)

I will have to do more reading, in the meantime I have just ordered moe bogwood off Ebay

 

[sswm]

what about a sump? I think that would be good, just have a low flow rate from the pump but that will give you a large volume of water and you can load the sump lots of biofiltration. You could run it through a 30-50 gallon sump to give you 40-60 gallons in total.

 

[mattbond]

in the wild its a constant flow of water thats always being replaced, and that its very difficult to do in aquaria
ive always thought that if you wanted to breed discus on a commercial scale, you could literally just have a river of tanks, so thaat discus have constantly good water quality, and then that water could flow through a massive apisto tank and then afterwards into a cory breeding tank?

sorry have i completely taken this over?

 

[meguro]

If its been documented in the wild I would think that the conditions are better than anyone could recreate in an aquarium, nature has a way of correcting things if something isnt right...I dont think I've ever heard of a wild betta splendens being seen in water the size of a glass, so I think those are completely different arguments...

I think he was rferring to the fact theat Betta's are oftern found in muddy puddles.

Yes, and those puddles aren't always massive.

As for it being documented, my point was the quality of its documentation. If only 1% of the wild apisto population live like this, then it is by no means ideal. If however research seems to indicate that a much larger percentage do indeed live in conditions similar to 50 fish/10 gallons, then we might have a purpose for discussion.

Shouldn't the number one priority for fish keepers be the well being of the fish? Not, "omg i replicated a rare event in nature, im so awesome". More scientific papers please.

 

[mattbond]

well its not practical for most fishkeepers to replicate wild conditions anyway, so its just a interesting "what if" topic really

i think im going to travel the amazon in my gap year and look for wild apistos now lol, i must find out

 

[degsod]

well its not practical for most fishkeepers to replicate wild conditions anyway, so its just a interesting "what if" topic really

i think im going to travel the amazon in my gap year and look for wild apistos now lol, i must find out

That would be goos if you do!!! Then we can get some first hand experience.

what about a sump? I think that would be good, just have a low flow rate from the pump but that will give you a large volume of water and you can load the sump lots of biofiltration. You could run it through a 30-50 gallon sump to give you 40-60 gallons in total.

Aump is a good idea, not practical in my situation as I do not have the room to put a sump.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Ok, they may be found in large numbers, but is the wild the size of a 10 gallon tank? I think it seems cruel. I am sure a large number of Apistos in a larger tank would have the same effect.