Value of my fish ?

[Guyb93]

Hi all , ok so a local breeder who I know is after my breeding pair of electric blue acara.. there not for sale , he has a pair already and from being a long term customer I know he has them to sell every other month or so , he charges £10-£15 per acara at around 2 inches , he is offering me £50 for the pair or £75 store credit , that seems low to me , 100-300 eggs per month a pair CAN produce and he sells for 10-15 per fish surely a young breeding pair not fully grow. Is more valuable than this , any thoughts ?

 

[kwi]

If they're not for sale surely it's a moot point?

 

[PheonixKingZ]

That also seems low to me. Don’t let him take advantage of you.

 

[Guyb93]

That also seems low to me. Don’t let him take advantage of you.

Yeah I’m not selling them I just didn’t want to over value my fish if that makes sense I didn’t want to sit thinking a pair of my fish are more valuable than they are if I did ever want to sell them in the future and I wanted to know if someone I kind of trusted is trying untrustworthy things

 

[Wills]

Its always hard to say how valuable fish are, for example if you had them breed and you had a spawn to sell the young as a hobbyist at any price could be difficult. But as a store it would be easier so they are worth more.

I dont think the prices are unreasonable that he has said but if it was £75 cash £100 store credit that seems a bit more reasonable

 

[Guyb93]

Its always hard to say how valuable fish are, for example if you had them breed and you had a spawn to sell the young as a hobbyist at any price could be difficult. But as a store it would be easier so they are worth more.

I dont think the prices are unreasonable that he has said but if it was £75 cash £100 store credit that seems a bit more reasonable

I was thinking more the £100 mark but I love the fish and would t sell them if he offers me £100 I would be like ohhhh no there worth more than tht lol just didn’t wanna think he was ripping me off or trying to

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Yeah I’m not selling them I just didn’t want to over value my fish if that makes sense I didn’t want to sit thinking a pair of my fish are more valuable than they are if I did ever want to sell them in the future and I wanted to know if someone I kind of trusted is trying untrustworthy things

I was thinking more the £100 mark but I love the fish and would t sell them if he offers me £100 I would be like ohhhh no there worth more than tht lol just didn’t wanna think he was ripping me off or trying to

It doesn't sound like an attempt to rip you off, or make him untrustworthy - it's the beginning of a negotiation. Your part of the negotiation, if you want to consider selling them - is to have an idea of what their market worth is, and what you'd be willing to accept for them. Or to tell him that you're not willing to sell the pair yet, but ask him what he'd pay you for their offspring. he's obviously going to want to get them for the cheapest price he can, just as you would want to buy a fish for the best price you can get. That doesn't make him a crook.

He's not going to offer you the fair market price for all of the potential offspring involved, just like you can't sell young guppies to the store you bought the parent guppies from for the same price each that you paid for the adults. He needs to make money, so wholesale price (or what he's willing to pay you for fish) obviously has to be less than what he charges for the same fish. So if you buy a guppy for £2.00, he's not going to pay you £2.00 each for the youngsters, or how is he meant to make any profit? He'd lose money in that deal since it would cost him to house and feed them before he sold them at the same price he paid. That's not how businesses work.

He has to account for his overhead costs. The rent for the store, running costs, feeding and growing and housing any young they may potentially have, and that there's no guarantee they would successfully have fry either.

A proven, bonded breeding pair of any animal is worth more than random single ones, but yours still aren't proven yet; once you have a successful batch of fry from them, and they still haven't killed each other, you could probably count them as a proven pair, and ask for a higher price than them being a potential successful pair. Pairs of animals aren't a proven breeding pair until eggs have hatched and young have grown. Before that, you can't prove that one isn't infertile, for example.

Look around as a buyer and see if you can find proven pairs of EBA's for sale, and how much they're on sale for. That'll tell you their market value.

Then calculate how much you could sell the youngsters for, and also how much it will cost you to house, feed, water change etc until the fry are old enough to sold on, and how much you could get for each of them. You and he would both have the same sort of costs around that, but don't forget to account for labour too, since the time spent rearing them over months adds up to a lot of labour costs.

Then just see what makes sense to you. Do you want to go through the hassle and expense of rearing fry? Do you want to do that for a while, then maybe sell the pair later, advertising that they're a proven successful pair? Or just continue selling the young yourself? Aquarium co op has a good series of videos about breeding fish for profit that you could watch if you're thinking about breeding or selling, especially to stores.

 

[Guyb93]

It doesn't sound like an attempt to rip you off, or make him untrustworthy - it's the beginning of a negotiation. Your part of the negotiation, if you want to consider selling them - is to have an idea of what their market worth is, and what you'd be willing to accept for them. Or to tell him that you're not willing to sell the pair yet, but ask him what he'd pay you for their offspring. he's obviously going to want to get them for the cheapest price he can, just as you would want to buy a fish for the best price you can get. That doesn't make him a crook.

He's not going to offer you the fair market price for all of the potential offspring involved, just like you can't sell young guppies to the store you bought the parent guppies from for the same price each that you paid for the adults. He needs to make money, so wholesale price (or what he's willing to pay you for fish) obviously has to be less than what he charges for the same fish. So if you buy a guppy for £2.00, he's not going to pay you £2.00 each for the youngsters, or how is he meant to make any profit? He'd lose money in that deal since it would cost him to house and feed them before he sold them at the same price he paid. That's not how businesses work.

He has to account for his overhead costs. The rent for the store, running costs, feeding and growing and housing any young they may potentially have, and that there's no guarantee they would successfully have fry either.

A proven, bonded breeding pair of any animal is worth more than random single ones, but yours still aren't proven yet; once you have a successful batch of fry from them, and they still haven't killed each other, you could probably count them as a proven pair, and ask for a higher price than them being a potential successful pair. Pairs of animals aren't a proven breeding pair until eggs have hatched and young have grown. Before that, you can't prove that one isn't infertile, for example.

Look around as a buyer and see if you can find proven pairs of EBA's for sale, and how much they're on sale for. That'll tell you their market value.

Then calculate how much you could sell the youngsters for, and also how much it will cost you to house, feed, water change etc until the fry are old enough to sold on, and how much you could get for each of them. You and he would both have the same sort of costs around that, but don't forget to account for labour too, since the time spent rearing them over months adds up to a lot of labour costs.

Then just see what makes sense to you. Do you want to go through the hassle and expense of rearing fry? Do you want to do that for a while, then maybe sell the pair later, advertising that they're a proven successful pair? Or just continue selling the young yourself? Aquarium co op has a good series of videos about breeding fish for profit that you could watch if you're thinking about breeding or selling, especially to stores.

At the moment they are my pets if that makes sense I never had intentions of breeding them , I did enquire about the fry that’s how he knows my pair breed , he offered me £1 per fry which is something I would do at a 10% value , but when he offered me £50 I was slightly insulted so I didn’t want to negotiate blindly without some understanding of there value, , I worked on a 10% value of them so they can lay 100-300 eggs so say 200 (10% of 200 = 20 ) every month for 10 years so 10% makes 1 year so my thinking was I’d want the value of 20 eba x12 which at his prices is £220, but that even sounds ridiculous to me , but one successful month he would make more than that then every month after that is profit for him for the next 10 years , I have just lost a lot of fry thanks to convicts who are no longer with me .. I rehomed and the pair are already showing breeding Behavior again , they don’t care if is my oscaror my pleco everything gets a whooping I know it’s not funny but it’s kind of funny to watch an Oscar 5x the size get beat up for going by a rock but part of me hopes they are not as prolific as I think they will be as I don’t want them to be banging 300 fish out a month in my tank but being a big softy I can’t remove one of the pair theY seem bonded and go every where together I have even noticed the Male being food to the female as she guards the eggs bless him lol maybe il make a few quid off there fry or maybe they will continue to be protein for the other fish I’m not sure

 

[Guyb93]

It doesn't sound like an attempt to rip you off, or make him untrustworthy - it's the beginning of a negotiation. Your part of the negotiation, if you want to consider selling them - is to have an idea of what their market worth is, and what you'd be willing to accept for them. Or to tell him that you're not willing to sell the pair yet, but ask him what he'd pay you for their offspring. he's obviously going to want to get them for the cheapest price he can, just as you would want to buy a fish for the best price you can get. That doesn't make him a crook.

He's not going to offer you the fair market price for all of the potential offspring involved, just like you can't sell young guppies to the store you bought the parent guppies from for the same price each that you paid for the adults. He needs to make money, so wholesale price (or what he's willing to pay you for fish) obviously has to be less than what he charges for the same fish. So if you buy a guppy for £2.00, he's not going to pay you £2.00 each for the youngsters, or how is he meant to make any profit? He'd lose money in that deal since it would cost him to house and feed them before he sold them at the same price he paid. That's not how businesses work.

He has to account for his overhead costs. The rent for the store, running costs, feeding and growing and housing any young they may potentially have, and that there's no guarantee they would successfully have fry either.

A proven, bonded breeding pair of any animal is worth more than random single ones, but yours still aren't proven yet; once you have a successful batch of fry from them, and they still haven't killed each other, you could probably count them as a proven pair, and ask for a higher price than them being a potential successful pair. Pairs of animals aren't a proven breeding pair until eggs have hatched and young have grown. Before that, you can't prove that one isn't infertile, for example.

Look around as a buyer and see if you can find proven pairs of EBA's for sale, and how much they're on sale for. That'll tell you their market value.

Then calculate how much you could sell the youngsters for, and also how much it will cost you to house, feed, water change etc until the fry are old enough to sold on, and how much you could get for each of them. You and he would both have the same sort of costs around that, but don't forget to account for labour too, since the time spent rearing them over months adds up to a lot of labour costs.

Then just see what makes sense to you. Do you want to go through the hassle and expense of rearing fry? Do you want to do that for a while, then maybe sell the pair later, advertising that they're a proven successful pair? Or just continue selling the young yourself? Aquarium co op has a good series of videos about breeding fish for profit that you could watch if you're thinking about breeding or selling, especially to stores.

I do have video evidence of there swimming fry

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

At the moment they are my pets if that makes sense I never had intentions of breeding them , I did enquire about the fry that’s how he knows my pair breed , he offered me £1 per fry which is something I would do at a 10% value , but when he offered me £50 I was slightly insulted so I didn’t want to negotiate blindly without some understanding of there value, , I worked on a 10% value of them so they can lay 100-300 eggs so say 200 (10% of 200 = 20 ) every month for 10 years so 10% makes 1 year so my thinking was I’d want the value of 20 eba x12 which at his prices is £220, but that even sounds ridiculous to me , but one successful month he would make more than that then every month after that is profit for him for the next 10 years , I have just lost a lot of fry thanks to convicts who are no longer with me .. I rehomed and the pair are already showing breeding Behavior again , they don’t care if is my oscaror my pleco everything gets a whooping I know it’s not funny but it’s kind of funny to watch an Oscar 5x the size get beat up for going by a rock but part of me hopes they are not as prolific as I think they will be as I don’t want them to be banging 300 fish out a month in my tank but being a big softy I can’t remove one of the pair theY seem bonded and go every where together I have even noticed the Male being food to the female as she guards the eggs bless him lol maybe il make a few quid off there fry or maybe they will continue to be protein for the other fish I’m not sure

I wouldn't be insulted. I don't know much about EBA's or cichlids in general, but from a quick google it sounds like EBA's are not rare, not that difficult to pair up, and not difficult to breed either - which is great in terms of making breeding pretty easy, but also means that a bonded breeding pair isn't necessarily worth hundreds of pounds either, since it wouldn't be hard for him to leave a bunch of acara in a tank and wait for a bonded pair to happen himself, right?

I couldn't find much info on raising EBA fry except that the parents are usually good at doing most of the care, and that they need a separate tank. But, you can't value a fish (or pair) based on what they could produce over the next ten years. They might only live for eight, or one might die after two years or something, and with most fish, not all of the fry make it either. You're counting each fry as pure profit by the looks of things, but not counting the cost of having them in a different tank, feeding them five times a day, the increased water changes it takes to raise healthy fry, electricity to filter and heat and maintain another four foot tank, time it takes to list and sell the fry and interact with each customer... Although when you say you were happy to think of the value as 10% of the cost of each fish they might produce, maybe that's how you're accounting for costs?

Why not separate them into another tank to breed, if they're very profitable, and they're beating up your other fish? Will it cause the other fish and the acaras a lot of stress for a breeding pair to be in a community tank? I know cichlids are cichlids, but I don't know whether that's something you should be avoiding by moving them, @Wills ? Will it be too stressful for the EBAs or the other fish to remain in the same tank?

Anyway, he could be as crooked as the day is long and trying to snow you, but it sounds like a pretty reasonable offer to me, if he usually sells them at 10-15 each, and they're not super hard to pair up. That makes £75 store credit seem a good starting point. He heard that yours had paired and were breeding but still in a community tank, you're not wanting to set them up as breeders yourself, so he offered you what he'd be willing to pay for them, but you could either suggest what you think they're worth, or just say no I just think it sounds maybe a bit lowball, understandably, but not outrageous either considering the costs and hassle of fry raising and private sales. If it was pure profit with no downsides, you'd be doing it yourself too

 

[Guyb93]

I wouldn't be insulted. I don't know much about EBA's or cichlids in general, but from a quick google it sounds like EBA's are not rare, not that difficult to pair up, and not difficult to breed either - which is great in terms of making breeding pretty easy, but also means that a bonded breeding pair isn't necessarily worth hundreds of pounds either, since it wouldn't be hard for him to leave a bunch of acara in a tank and wait for a bonded pair to happen himself, right?

I couldn't find much info on raising EBA fry except that the parents are usually good at doing most of the care, and that they need a separate tank. But, you can't value a fish (or pair) based on what they could produce over the next ten years. They might only live for eight, or one might die after two years or something, and with most fish, not all of the fry make it either. You're counting each fry as pure profit by the looks of things, but not counting the cost of having them in a different tank, feeding them five times a day, the increased water changes it takes to raise healthy fry, electricity to filter and heat and maintain another four foot tank, time it takes to list and sell the fry and interact with each customer... Although when you say you were happy to think of the value as 10% of the cost of each fish they might produce, maybe that's how you're accounting for costs?

Why not separate them into another tank to breed, if they're very profitable, and they're beating up your other fish? Will it cause the other fish and the acaras a lot of stress for a breeding pair to be in a community tank? I know cichlids are cichlids, but I don't know whether that's something you should be avoiding by moving them, @Wills ? Will it be too stressful for the EBAs or the other fish to remain in the same tank?

Anyway, he could be as crooked as the day is long and trying to snow you, but it sounds like a pretty reasonable offer to me, if he usually sells them at 10-15 each, and they're not super hard to pair up. That makes £75 store credit seem a good starting point. He heard that yours had paired and were breeding but still in a community tank, you're not wanting to set them up as breeders yourself, so he offered you what he'd be willing to pay for them, but you could either suggest what you think they're worth, or just say no I just think it sounds maybe a bit lowball, understandably, but not outrageous either considering the costs and hassle of fry raising and private sales. If it was pure profit with no downsides, you'd be doing it yourself too

I’m not too worried about stressing my other fish with them , they are not overly aggressive it’s just a certain spot in my tank , and my tank is 5ft 500l so the other fish have lots of room to avoid that area and let’s face it , my Oscar could easier kill then eat my eba lol , he wants a new pair that breed because all his eba come from two parents and for genetic health don’t want to breed there offspring as where I had a pair off him and the other two have been bought from other sources so it’s a complete fresh dna strain , I understand his costs and such as he is licensed but very small his shop is a big shed lol he is open that he only sells 10-20 % of his own stock the rest is bought out from big stores which he barely makes money on or he would be left with 1000s of fish each month but I know he sells out of the eba every month , they seems to be very popular for obvious reasons to me that’s why I love them but like you say they pair easy , breed easy and make good parents but still command a price of £10+ , big price for a common fish really , I’m not looking to sell them or persuade them into breeding to be honest I was just looking on an insight into weather he was pulling my pants down , and I don’t feel as bad about his offer now I think we can remain social ahahah

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I’m not too worried about stressing my other fish with them , they are not overly aggressive it’s just a certain spot in my tank , and my tank is 5ft 500l so the other fish have lots of room to avoid that area and let’s face it , my Oscar could easier kill then eat my eba lol , he wants a new pair that breed because all his eba come from two parents and for genetic health don’t want to breed there offspring as where I had a pair off him and the other two have been bought from other sources so it’s a complete fresh dna strain , I understand his costs and such as he is licensed but very small his shop is a big shed lol he is open that he only sells 10-20 % of his own stock the rest is bought out from big stores which he barely makes money on or he would be left with 1000s of fish each month but I know he sells out of the eba every month , they seems to be very popular for obvious reasons to me that’s why I love them but like you say they pair easy , breed easy and make good parents but still command a price of £10+ , big price for a common fish really , I’m not looking to sell them or persuade them into breeding to be honest I was just looking on an insight into weather he was pulling my pants down , and I don’t feel as bad about his offer now I think we can remain social ahahah

Haha, good, glad you can remain social!

I want to learn some more about cichlids, I really don't know much at all. I tend to go for peaceful above all else, so peaceful community fish, livebearers, nano fish etc, the idea of seeing my fish beating each other up stresses me out! I don't think I have the knowledge nor nature to be able to cope with that, lol. Id be panicking and moving fish out all the time and end up with dozens of massive tanks with one fish in each

 

[Guyb93]

Haha, good, glad you can remain social!

I want to learn some more about cichlids, I really don't know much at all. I tend to go for peaceful above all else, so peaceful community fish, livebearers, nano fish etc, the idea of seeing my fish beating each other up stresses me out! I don't think I have the knowledge nor nature to be able to cope with that, lol. Id be panicking and moving fish out all the time and end up with dozens of massive tanks with one fish in each

I’m similar , i go off there damage capability in a way , I know my 3inch eba can’t do much damage to my 6inch Oscar as it is so much denser in size And if they are attacking it , they have a reason , if my Oscar was attacking my eba I’d panic lol itwould just eat them but It’s like a puppy just wants to be fed and looked at lol I have rehomed fish that are aggressive for no apparent reason other than they could be , I find cichlids are real personal fish and a fish that is know to be not so aggressive can be a real anus and vice versa .. @Wills has helped me with my stocking disasters a few times now lmao

 

[Wills]

Haha, good, glad you can remain social!

I want to learn some more about cichlids, I really don't know much at all. I tend to go for peaceful above all else, so peaceful community fish, livebearers, nano fish etc, the idea of seeing my fish beating each other up stresses me out! I don't think I have the knowledge nor nature to be able to cope with that, lol. Id be panicking and moving fish out all the time and end up with dozens of massive tanks with one fish in each

It's not a constant all out war it just takes a bit of balancing to get things right. There are a few tricks and lessons we've learned on this forum over the years but there is an element of risk, but like I say a balance is achievable to get a long term peaceful, rewarding tank. I'm going cichlidless in my first tank for ages soon though so they are not the be all and end all but they are a very rewarding type of animal to own as they are really personable and respond to their owners.

Wills

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

It's not a constant all out war it just takes a bit of balancing to get things right. There are a few tricks and lessons we've learned on this forum over the years but there is an element of risk, but like I say a balance is achievable to get a long term peaceful, rewarding tank. I'm going cichlidless in my first tank for ages soon though so they are not the be all and end all but they are a very rewarding type of animal to own as they are really personable and respond to their owners.

Wills

Oh I'm sure they are! And there's no denying how beautiful and colourful so many of them are. I was reading a little about them the other day, especially since I'm in a hard water area, with a GH of 253, so my choice of fish is pretty restricted compared to those lucky folks with soft tap water. I'm still pretty new to the hobby, and started with livebearers, thinking they'd be typical hardy starter fish. I didn't know at the time that guppies especially are not the hardy fish they always used to be, being quite poorly bred and genetically weak now... but as fun as livebearers are for a while, gotta admit that they can get boring too. They're certainly not going to interact with you the way an Oscar or even an Angel would.

And despite my weakness for planted tanks, have also seen some stunning cichlid tanks with the rocks and driftwood, like the one of your old set up you shared recently! It was stunning.

Any recommendations for a beginners guide to cichlids? I read this article the other day and found it really fascinating, about how the fish in lake Malawi live, how the lake was formed, the importance of the rocks etc, it was fascinating! And helped me see why rock work is so important in cichlid community tanks.

The mbuna keeper's survival guide

Mbuna are colourful, hardy cichlids that are easy to breed in the aquarium. But they’re also highly territorial fish, so get things wrong and you could have a blood bath. Here’s how to avoid a rocky horror…

www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk