Some fish keepers are stupid

[Tokis-Phoenix]

When i first started out in fish keeping i was given a 10gal tank by an old landlord of mine- i had wanted to keep fish for many years back then and had only recently had the opotunity to have a tank. I was very poor back then and i had no access to the internet back then whatsoever and all the books i found on fish keeping were at least £15's.
So i went around lots of lfs's trying to find out all i could about fish keeping.
Luckily back then i didn't get any seriously bad advice, i was told to do weekly water changes with dechlorinator and not to have more than 6fish over 3inchs in the tank.
But i ended up getting 3mollys and 3chinese algae eaters back then anyway due to some bad advice.
Amazingly i didn't lose a single fish at first and did alright for the fist couple of months- then the CAE's jumped out of the tank and 2 of the mollys got trapped in a cave i made for them that had fallen down when a book fell on the tank. I was left with one molly who had 5 fry and 6months later i got connected up to the internet and did a heck of a lot of researching.

 

[Fishist]

I too took on my first tank recently after years of wanting. When I was an infant my parents had a "lfs" for several years and after that my Dad kept the odd tank or two here and there, so I've been around the hobby all my life.

However, when I finally took the plunge and got my own tank last year I started to do my own research. This included talking to my parents, chatting with my lfs, reading books, checking the Internet, browsing magazines and logging onto this forum.

Information is out there... all over the place. Personally, I take information from all sources and try to make sense of it in a broad spectrum. Then I am able to make my own decisions and learn from my experience. If I make a mistake it's my fault.

Unfortunately we as humans tend to take advise from a single source that we believe to be of greater knowledge than our own.... something we have undoubtedly learned from extensive academic schooling and, therefore if told something by someone that we believe to be of higher knowledge we are sometimes led astray.

It's up to the individual to do the research, make the mistakes, be successful or even set a tank up and then get sick of it after a month. If we want to blame a bad lfs or department store then that's fine. But at the end of the day - the fish are in your tank in your house..... TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

 

[Synirr]

Well done CFC. I agree, sometimes people are just looking for a devil to blame their own wrongdoing on.
I don't expect all newbies to research as much as we all tend to do because, let's face it, fishkeeping doesn't seem hard. All they need is food and water, right? Making a mistake or two is perfectly acceptable as long as you try your best to correct it once you realise your error.

What really gets to me isn't employees who don't preempt mistakes by warning the customer that the oscar they're buying won't go in their 10 gallon, but employees who try to give advice when they can't tell their arse from a hole in the ground. What's so hard about saying "I don't know"?? That's what I like about my LFS, the employees don't try to give you advice unless they're sure of what they're saying

 

[Tolak]

Caveat Emptor

If you trust lfs employees, each & every one of them, you will get screwed sooner or later. They are sales personnell, you are the buyer. There is no reason not to do your research when purchasing most anything of consequence these days.

Today you can stay in your house, push a few buttons & roll around a little doodad, & you have a world of information staring you in the face. Since becoming computer literate a few years back, I can't begin to list all the things I have learned about in depth without leaving the house. It wasn't like that 12 years ago with a 10 gallon tank.

I could see folks without computer access having a deficiency in knowledge compaired to those with, but if you are posting on these or any other boards, you have the same access as anyone else.

I don't mind helping newbies with basic repetitive questions, and I can see where a mod would get fed up with constantly having to deal with these sort of things. They have made a commitment to this forum, and are expected to help. I could dissapear for a week, or a month, show back up, without having dropped the ball on any sort of commitment. The mods don't have that option. I can't blame any of them for venting once in a while, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Tolak

 

[andywg]

I must admit, in a lot of other things people will research before buying.

If you go to an electronics store and trust the employee implicitly then you will end up with something either unsuitable or unnecessary quite often. If you research then you are fine. Would you trust an Estate agent to inform you exactly which house you should buy?

I fully understand why CFC put this here. The number of threads abusing lfs employees does seem to be rising. Also there seems to be a slight rise in incorrect, or part correct advice given on the forum too. this is always cleaned up pretty quickly, but it underlines the need to research continuosly.

 

[Nauplii]

Hey CFC i hope that wasnt aimed at me mate me being a fish keeper AND a LFS employee and all.

I make sure people have got the right fish all the time, and if i dont know a certain fish i go ask the manager like keith (well you know him anyway) .... and i happen to be one of those people who give u the fish you want, rather than a quick net scoop out of the tank... UNLESS i must add, if its a certain NEON OR khuli loach or somehting ridiculous
i guess when you keep fish your more likely to understand that people want certain fish, because im dead picky about my own fish .

But i do understand where your coming from! Another guy that works where i do has just come back from australia, and he's been working during the week ... whilst im in college....
A person had come in asking for some indian sucking loach, and so i dunno if he did this on purpose but he scooped them up 2 red-tailed catfish which happened to be in the same tank... so anyway these fish we found out were for a small community tank with danios and neons...

ANYWAY. the lady calls up saturday evening, and states that basically all her previous fish had been eaten and she tells my manager lez what they were 'indian sucking loaches' ... and obviously he says that cant possibly be right, so he gets her to describe them to him...

the woman says 'big mouth, black patch on its back with white underbelly, and a pinky red tail at about 6" '
Lez then looks over at the tank and realises that shes got served the catfish instead so she brings them back and he apologises and gives her replacement fish...!

But anyway my point is that some people who work in LFS's dont actually have a passion for the hobby so to them it doesnt matter what they tell people, because they honestly dont care...a jobs a job...
Which youll find could be nearly most of part-time staff working at these places, and sometimes even the managers themselves that ive met dont have a clue.(but the manager part is usually in smaller fish shops)

So i agree with CFC in saying that people just starting up should actually READ something or browse the net.
Although there are many contridictions into the hobby from book to book, they all give you the general basics of whats needed and so on so you can make the right choice. so you cant be caught out by some of these twats working in these places

ok im done *)

*EDIT*just reading back over i thought id mention that i first started keeping fish on the outspurt of coming back from the skatepark one sunday and just borrowing money form my money to buy a tank and RELY on the lfs staff to guide me in the right direction.. which i believe hey should, but not every place is perfect but waterworld near me is no damn good fish place! its sucks and i wont be going there agaain!








ok really done now

 

[Notsofab]

My 2 pennyworth ....... for what its worth.

I am totally new to fish keeping ( 3.5 weeks ). We bought our tank totally on a whim after going into our local aqaurium to buy some bits for a garden fountain. I had never before thought about or considered keeping fish before, I was just awestruck by the beautiful fish tanks in the shop and thought it would liven up my living room.

We asked a lot of questions in the shop and thankfully they prevented us from making loads of stupid mistakes straight up, like buy a tank to go on a sideboard that would never support it's weight etc. I still believe they steered us toward the right tank setup for us. But they also gave us loads of naff advice as well, such as cycling our new tank only with 'Cycle' and 'Stress Coat' as directed on the bottles. They did tell us that we needed to leave the tank running for 2 weeks after adding the chemicals before we could safely add any fish thoguh.

...... so that was when my research began in earnest. After setting the tank up I came across this forum and started to read everything I could. And so my education began!

Keeping fish isn't brain surguery, but it also isn't as straight forward as most claim. There are many people, with many opinions and mixed fish keeping experiences and ( ... like with any other topic researched on the web ) much conflicting advice. I talk to people at my workplace who have had fish for years, yet they know nothing about cycling a tank. I have been told by one LFS that fishless cycling using ammonia is the old way to cycle tanks, nowadays people use 'Cycle'. Somebody on this forum recently told me that my ammonia level of 0.1 wasn't toxic at my pH level of 7.5 anyway? Is this correct?

The point I'm trying to make is even if you do research, it is still very difficult to ascertain what is right, tried tested and proven against what may have worked for somebody else. Just because somebody on a forum has 1600 post ( .... not a reference to anyone in particular ) they may be a fourteen year old fish keeper. Not wanting to be rude, but I would be slightly sceptical about any kind of advice from a fourteen year old - even if they had been keeping fish for 4 years? Sure, I would listen to what they have to say, but wouldn't go off and blindly follow their advice.

On the subject of friendliness, I think the people using this forum genuinely care about fish first and foremost. The posts are normally worthwhile and you don't get the usual kind of crap nonsence posts that I find on other kinds of forums. Plus there is an absolute wealth of great information posted here. That said I recently posted an article in the emergencies section about my first dead fish and I did get the feeling that some replies were pointing the finger at me purely because I new to the hobby. As somebody else replied, it was possible that the fish was already sick when I bought it.

Finally, with regards to maoning. Everybody is entitled to their moan - we all do it about something.

 

[andywg]

To be honest, the worst advice comes from people with years in the hobby who don't think a newbie can tell them how to look after fish, even though a lot of the 14 year olds are more likely to do heavy research on the internet and provide correct and up to date information.

The moment someone boasts about how long they have kept fish I am naturally curious as to why they have said that.

 

[Dubby]

I dont totally agree with CFC. Its after all a question of whom to trust - the LFS, the internet or a book? To a newbie, I suppose that is the basic problem.

After all, the information we can find on the internet is not always reliable as several postings may have been done by someone who thinks they are correct but in reality are not! There are no mods for every page of information out there

So its still a case of caveat emptor - buyer beware, isnt it?

 

[Inchworm]

It's unfortunate that there are so many pet store chains selling fish today. These companies are in the business to sell things, not to help people succeed in their hobby. Like most chains they are more interested in taking your money today than in establishing a good relationship with you so that you return. It's too bad that there a lot of fishkeepers who have few or no other places to shop for their fish and supplies. A good independent lfs is worth its weight in gold!

On the other hand, it's true that there is a lot of information available these days, but sometimes I think it might be too much. It can be hard for a newbie to the hobby to sort through it all. And the fact of the matter is that a lot of it isn't even necessary for them to know to have a successful tank and healthy fish. That might be a shocking thought to some of you, but it's entirely true.

Old timers in the hobby will remember the days when a few simple rules were all you needed to follow:

1. Stock lightly.
2. Add the fish gradually.
3. Clean your tank every week and replace the water that comes out with clean water.
4. Make sure the chlorine is out of the water before you put it in the tank.
5. Keep the temperature steady and appropriate for the fish you have.
6. Isolate sick fish.

These rules still apply today and work just as well as they ever did. Our tanks cycled even though we did not know that it was happening or that there were bacteria doing it. We just knew that after a time an established tank was said to be "mature." By adding fish slowly the bacteria had time to multiply and keep up with the need for them.

However, now there is more science to explain the "whys" and it tends to obscure the basic "hows." There are seemingly magic products for sale that will supposedly give you a perfect tank in an instant, so why bother teaching the customers the reasons for things or even suggest that they have a little patience? After all, the chain lfs are in business to make money, and they want it now!

Even the independent lfs have gone this way to an extent; it's what their customers expect. At least their employees have the necessary knowledge and if you take time to ask questions and let them know you are a beginner, they will usually explain the basics. If you make the effort to return and talk to the same person they will remember you and often guide you through the process and teach you everything you need to know.

I can see where forums can be confusing too. While all the members have some experience, there are some who post information that is partly or completely incorrect. Sometimes the most outspoken ones have learned everything they know from reading posts of other forums or websites. This information may or may not even be correct. It's difficult to sort things out when you are new to the hobby.

 

[rdd1952]

I have been told by one LFS that fishless cycling using ammonia is the old way to cycle tanks, nowadays people use 'Cycle'. Somebody on this forum recently told me that my ammonia level of 0.1 wasn't toxic at my pH level of 7.5 anyway? Is this correct?

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Actually, fishless cycling is relatively new only coming into popularity in 1998 or 1999. It is definitely the best way to go IMO. In my oppinion, products such as Cycle and Prime are useless in the cycling process. I have tried Cycle (but not Prime) and I couldn't tell any difference in the time required to cycle with or without Cycle. As for the ammonia not being toxic, a level of .1 isn't terribly toxic BUT ammonia is more toxic in high pH water (over 7.0) than in low pH water (below 7.0).

The point I'm trying to make is even if you do research, it is still very difficult to ascertain what is right, tried tested and proven against what may have worked for somebody else. Just because somebody on a forum has 1600 post ( .... not a reference to anyone in particular ) they may be a fourteen year old fish keeper. Not wanting to be rude, but I would be slightly sceptical about any kind of advice from a fourteen year old - even if they had been keeping fish for 4 years? Sure, I would listen to what they have to say, but wouldn't go off and blindly follow their advice.

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There are a few younger members on here that are very knowledgable. I won't name names but there is an older thread I believe in the Board Announcements & Suggestions Section that several of them mention their age. Since they don't list their age on their profile (for obvious reasons) you would probably never guess they are so young because they express themselves so well and are so knowledgable. As for not taking the advice blindly, I think that should apply to almost anyone on here at least until you have seen enough of their advice to know that you can trust them. Some people say that it's a waste of time to repeat advice that someone else has given or to simply say that you agree with it but I believe that the more replys a person gets that confirms or suggests the same action, the more confidence they will have that the advice is correct.

 

[Ben]

Not wanting to be rude, but I would be slightly sceptical about any kind of advice from a fourteen year old - even if they had been keeping fish for 4 years? Sure, I would listen to what they have to say, but wouldn't go off and blindly follow their advice.

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[/quote]
And you would listen to the advice of a 40 year old?
Whats the difference? I really don't see any difference between a 14 year old and 40 year old giving advice, we have the same brain capacity to hold the same amount of information as anyone thats got a hard cranium.
At some LFS/LPS i can give a few our lectures on how to keep fish to adults there.


Back to the topic....
I agree with you CFC, Fish keepers also have to take some responsibility in their hobby and go research for themselves

DD

 

[xamdarb]

Personally i think that was a bit of lame thread, especially as you are a moderator. Ive only recently joined this forum, and i have learnt a great deal from the topics and information discussed on here.

Ive spoken to some nice people, and ive noticed there some ones that really put themselves out there to help people, which i greatly respect. But im sick and tired already of people moaning about newbies, and thats all it is, moaning. There is also some people on here that like to pick at people. There was someone on here last week that posted a reply to someones thread, and all they had to say was critism on the size of their tank and what stock they have based on their signature. they didnt have anything to say about the actual thread topic. For a fish forum, i think this is all pretty pathetic..

'Friendliest forum around'... you should change it to 'just another typical internet forum'

Newbies are newbies. They are going to make mistakes, they are going to use the wrong information, but so be it. You guys should help them out and look back on when you first started. Im sure you all didnt read books etc before your first tank

Anyways, thats my rant over, i believe its my turn for the flaming now

i agree with him alot of poeple on this forum are just ignorant and they are not that freindly haha but alot of you guys are so dont take it the wrong way bye

 

[Notsofab]

Like I said, didn't mean to be rude or patronising. Yes I guess it was a generalisation and I wouldn't expect any 14 year old to fully understand until they are much older.

I'm sure you know exactly what you are talking about and I know Jack about fish keeping.

 

[jacblades]

The moment someone boasts about how long they have kept fish I am naturally curious as to why they have said that.

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usually once they start to boast about that, there's no reasoning with them.

we have this one guy that comes in and buys cichlids and kills every single one of them. brings em back and we give him more! (last time he came in, he brought his recipt and said that his $30 tropheus had disappeared and we should give him another one...even though he could not provide us with the body of the fish)
he comes in and asks for help and then doesn't listen to any advice. i always tell him, "your tank is not cycled and you can't add 10 cichlids at once." he asked me what "cycled" meant. i explained and he said, "well i've never heard of that and i have been keeping fish since before you were born. i used to own a pet store."
i go on telling him that he likely has high ammonia and if he brings some of his water in, we can test it and know for sure. (he has never brought any of his water in and probably never will)
he told me there was no ammonia in the tank (although he did not test) because if there was ammonia, it would smell bad. i wanted to laugh and smack him at the same time. he owned a pet store? possible, as my manager who manages the pet care department (mainly fish) doesn't know jack about animals and he hates fish. why should a pet store manager need to know about animals? after all, animals are ours to use however we wish, whether they be decorations in vases with plants on top on our desks, Christmas presents to children who will forget about them in a day or guards to keep our houses safe from intruders. with attitudes any different how could we petstores make any money?!?

and we continue to give that man more fish to kill (after all, the cost to the store is only about 1/7 of what we charge for the fish and fish aren't really animals. we wouldn't be giving him macaws or guinea pigs that we knew were going to die, but with fish-its ok.) because he is a "valuable" customer on non-live animal sales. he spends a fortune on fish medications
but im not sure the management knows...he brings those back too...
and it's my fault the medications just don't work...


i hope you noted some sarcasm in my post...