Some fish keepers are stupid

yvez9 said:
what i was trying to say is people expect good tips from someone who sells them something.

It's not up to everyone to do research on something they want to buy...
They expect good information from the salesperson and the manufacturer. I'm not saying its normal for people not to research. Just saying people will take advice from someone who is in poistion to give out advice.

You make an excellent point, yvez9. :thumbs:

I've said the same thing many times. What lfs often do is misrepresent their products to sell them. If this was any other item than fish it would be considered consumer fraud.

Why do we allow this? :dunno:
 
I tried to read through as much of this thread as possible, but considering it is almost 3am and my eyes are barely open I skimmed some of the lengthier posts.... Anyways..... I am kind of split on this topic really.... I only have one tropical tank, so most of my experiences applies to bettas only. I don't think it is the LFS's responsibility to just hand you information, but think it isn't too much to ask to get accurate information when you do ask them something. If they don't know the proper answer they can simply say so, and try to find another employee who does. I have talked with many lfs employees and given them information that they can hopefully pass on to other customers. I love when I walk in and they have male bettas in overcrowded community tanks, then proceed to tell me that it is ok when I question it. To me that is just being an irresponsible LFS, and blatent disregard for the lives of living creatures..... On the other hand, it is hard to place the blame fully on an lfs b/c in reality we are all responsible for ourselves as well as the hobbies we choose to do. Tokis is exactly right, and I am as guilty as the next person of it..... People think that all fish need are water and food....... I may be thick, but I had NO IDEA that there would be forums and such all over the place for fishkeeping. I suppose I just never thought of it..... As for a mod making the post. I think if they spend as much time as they do on here mantaining the forum, then they have the right to post whatever they want..... Wuv didn't hold back on the wal-mart threads and maybe the same should be done for this subject... it's not too bothersome if someone mentions it in a thread, but making a thread solely to bash a lfs is really annoying......I do have to agree that sometimes people don't act in the nicest manner when it comes to overstocked/uncycled tanks. I know it can be frustrating, but there is no need to be rude to a newbie over it, definitely give them the advice they need, just do so in a not so "you are so dumb that you didn't know this" way.... We want to keep people around on here, that's what makes a forum thrive, so pissing off newbs is not a good way to go imo. The newbies are the future oldies that in 10 years may still be around giving advice to different newbies that are complaining about "those damn lfs employees".
 
Some people do research cars or houses quite a bit before they buy them. It took me a year & a half before I ran into the truck I wanted, did research the whole time. Two years of research on a snowthrower. Definitely houses, you are a fool if you don't do some massive research into what is probably the biggest investment and expenditure of your life. That research has been going on for 20 years. No end in sight to that one.

If someone is a little put off by the amount of time I put in a previous post, that time was used in reference to the explosion in information technology in recent years. Sorry I was born on '59 & not '89, I didn't have a choice in that matter. No one knows everything about aquatics, I doubt that in my lifetime that I will know half of everything. The things I do know about aquatics are in a relatively narrow area. I've seen guys who have been breeding fish longer than I have been alive learn something new. It's an ongoing process.

There were a few members mentioned previously as being younger, I don't look at ages, had no idea as to their age. In some areas kids are more knowledgable than adults. I've gotten excellent advice from 14 year olds in computer maintainance & repair. They do their research, and are constantly learning about this sort of thing. I don't discount ideas because of age, a fresh mind can often see a new approach to things that I may have overlooked.

Tolak
 
Tolak said:
Some people do research cars or houses quite a bit before they buy them. It took me a year & a half before I ran into the truck I wanted, did research the whole time. Two years of research on a snowthrower. Definitely houses, you are a fool if you don't do some massive research into what is probably the biggest investment and expenditure of your life. That research has been going on for 20 years. No end in sight to that one.

If someone is a little put off by the amount of time I put in a previous post, that time was used in reference to the explosion in information technology in recent years. Sorry I was born on '59 & not '89, I didn't have a choice in that matter. No one knows everything about aquatics, I doubt that in my lifetime that I will know half of everything. The things I do know about aquatics are in a relatively narrow area. I've seen guys who have been breeding fish longer than I have been alive learn something new. It's an ongoing process.

There were a few members mentioned previously as being younger, I don't look at ages, had no idea as to their age. In some areas kids are more knowledgable than adults. I've gotten excellent advice from 14 year olds in computer maintainance & repair. They do their research, and are constantly learning about this sort of thing. I don't discount ideas because of age, a fresh mind can often see a new approach to things that I may have overlooked.

Tolak
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You're right Tolak, people should research everything they buy. Rarely will someone buy a CD if they never heard of the band or at least one song off the album... Should people trust a used car salesman? No. Yet, some people don't know better.

Glad to hear you spend lots of time researching everything you buy, and I do most of the time!

I guess with more and more people going on the internet everyday, someday everyone will be apt to at least take a few minutes to research what they want to buy. Until then though, there will be many more people giving out bad advice, on purpose or not and I do find this unacceptable but that's like gas prices , what can we do about it really? Unless everyone does something together, notyhing will ever change! at least not for a while... :/
 
"you are a fool if you don't do some massive research into what is probably the biggest investment and expenditure of your life"......man I love this and I agree 100%. The trouble with this statement is that it requires people to take responsibility for themselves. People hate to hear that. All they want is someone to take care of them and if it goes wrong someone to blame.......

-john
 
I've found the more personal responsibility you take in any aspect of your life, aquatics included, the better the results in whatever endeavor you are pursuing. The way I see it you are entitled to life, liberty, & the persuit of happiness, the rest is up to the individual.

Tolak
 
Absolutely. I hate how right now in our country, there is no personal responsibility for anything. Hopefully, if you are buying a fish, you are an adult (emotionally or physically), and adults independantly research anything they are getting in to. I think that LFS employees should absolutely be educated to tell you really basic things like "don't mix bettas and guppies" or "don't put a goldfish in a bowl," but unfortunately it is hard to convince stores to sell and educate only about proper care, because of the things they sell don't lend themselves to proper care.
And I'm not saying newbie mistakes are completely unacceptable, because we are raised in a society where we've been told practically from the womb "fish don't have feelings, fish go in bowls, fish only live a week, fish are disposeable." However, I also don't think people should be completely exempt from responsibility just because they are "new to it." I don't think that excuse would fly if you were a parent and you left your infant in three inches of its own waste because you "didn't know how often you had to clean it; you're NEW to parenting."

Side note, I think that doing research is a must for any animal, from a snail to a parrot. I am planning on getting a breeding pair of button quail, for example. Did I get them at the fair when I talked to the breeder, because they were super cute and I want one? NO. I am researching everything I can find about them for a whole YEAR, and making sure I have the set up I need, back up plans if there is trouble homing them, a local vet who sees them, and the resources for a proper enclosure. I am a "newbie" to these birds, but I sure as hell don't expect the breeder to tell me everything, or to necesarily give me proper advice for the level of care I want. And if I mess up, it is going to be my fault entirely for not researching enough, not the breeder's.
 
i am enjoying reading this thread. there are so many different opinions.
this made me laugh out loud. the macaroni part was great! thanks random :D

RandomWiktor said:
At the end of the day, if a car breaks down, it may or not be caused by the way you used it, but you can bring it to a mechanic and get it fixed, or you can get rid of it. It might be dissapointing, it didn't die from inhaling its own waste for weeks because you didn't look up the history of your used car and find out that it had alignment issues. Nor will the macoroni and cheese eat one another alive if you put the wrong margarin in. And while your house might get a fixable hole in the wall because you didn't read into how much weight it could hold, it probably won't dry out and die on the floor.
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I am classified as a 'newbie'. I am not sensitive about it, and it's fine, because I have returned to fish-keeping after 20 years, and things have moved on so incredibly, that I know I have a lot of new stuff to learn. But I kept tropicals for eight years before I reluctantly gave up. Work it out, people - I started well over 25 years ago, when things were (in hindsight) very primitive! The knowledge now (freely shared) is awesome!

We had the (limited) advice when we started of a friend who kept fish. But I bought lots of books (there was no internet), and started with a community tank, which I set up, installed an undergravel filter, filled with plants, and ran for a fortnight before the guppies (a cory, some platys, and damn it all, a CAE!) were introduced. It was all we knew then.

I moved on to kribensis (which bred) and Oscars (which grew enormous - at least they must have been fed right, and had enough room!).

So many points made by so many people of so many ages and so many different experiences, all make at least SOME valid points.

If you are buying it, it is YOUR responsibility to research it, if only to save yourself (and possibly your unwitting purchase) any grief.

Would you buy a car from a showroom on impulse, without knowing what it consumed, what it cost to run, what insurance group it belonged to? Of course you would not!

A car salesman is only too happy to sell you a car! Caveat emptor! Yet a fish is NOT an inanimate object! Buy him, and you have a responsibility for a life.

The question is, how seriously do you take that responsibility?

Sadly, people buy 'pedigree' puppies from unscrupulous sellers, without knowing characteristics of the breed. That also is a life, potentially ruined if s/he goes to the wrong home.

So, it appears that the only difference to the careless purchaser is in the price, and what it will cost the purchaser if it goes wrong.

I have the occasional (very occasional - three in 25 years!) litter of puppies. Prospective purchasers are grilled both sides. I regard that as my responsibility. But many people breed for 'profit' (yeah, right), and if you have the cash, they will pass over the puppy without question. But if you have problems, they will also deny any responsibility or liability.

Clearly, this can be used as a parallel for the purchase of fish.

Sales people generally are exactly that - they will sell. If they are paid on commission, the more they sell, the more money they make. If they are not paid on commission, any sales still look good on their till record. If they are paid peanuts, they will generally agree with anything you say, just to get you out of their hair. And of course there are exceptions to this, we all know them and we have all come across them - just not that often.

It is up to you to research so that you know if they are bulls******g you when you ask questions.

Enthusiasts are something different. They will advise, and sell you what they know you can deal with.

In the end, it is the responsibility of the buyer. Ask questions, but go home and get on the net and research!

And yes, I agree - in my limited number of forays around this site, I too despair of the questions 'can I do this?' 'no' 'well, I am going to anyway'!

The original post was an excellent prompt to make people THINK about the consequences of their own actions! :nod:
 
i have to admit to doing the impulse buying of my first tank, i learnt my lesson the hard way very quick, in fact within a couple of days of beleiving lps i found this site & realised what i had done. putting fish in a tank with something i was told would make it safe for them within 24 hours :*) it didn't take me long to get my second tank, think within 2week & that was cleaned n cycled properly with no fish using ammoina & that tank is great. the first tank every guppy i had died :byebye: . so yeah some of the newbie things are very annoying even to me now but you do learn through your mistakes or at least most of us do.
1 of my friends left me speechless today by saying fish have 3 second memorys, so just told her mine don't as they know who feeds them everyday. the bad thing is up until getting my fish i thought the same, if i want anything now i research it first. new misson is horseface loaches i have seen but looking into them first & waiting on bigger tank as i have enuff fish in for the size of tank i have now.
oh yeah i also still feel like a total newbie as i find something else out every day i come on here :D
tis still a great site & i would tell any1 i know about this site :D
 
Can I add that people who buy a car don't do massive search on the internet before buying it. Same goes for a house. Who will fetch technical information about a house's structure, it's water system and so on....

People will go to a store and buy a nice little 20 gallon Hagen aquarium (as I did) and then find in the box a nice VHS tape and a little 10 page booklet with beginner's instructions. In the booklet, it will say what LFS people say: Let it run for a few days, bring it up to temp, make sure everything is ok and then put "Cycle" in it and buy fish.

If you buy a car, you'll maintain it like the owner's manual suggests and seldom more.

These instruction manuals have the same purpose, let you run your purchase with minimal trouble, just enough to not discourage you and keep coming back to the dealer to buy more stuff...

If you buy a bag of Kraft Diner at the store, the recipe says you need Kraft margarine to mix it well... Everyone knows margarine is margarine and any brand will do, but not everyone knows this about cars or fish tanks...

If you dont do research on a car or a house, like tolak said, your a fool. And no, you can not expect the people who sell you things to give you the proper information, thats why the capitalist system was created, so that those who sell products improperly would be held accountable (please do not fall into the trap of beleiving that the US is a capitalist nation, it is not) It IS UP TO youto do research.

Not to mention, as tolak stated, that inanimate objects and living objects are totally different. If you expect to take a living creature, and put it in a box and expect them to thrive, then your a fool. If you went to the hardware store and bought tomato seeds do you epect the 16 year old associate to tell you how to farm tomatos? No, and its not that way in an lfs either. The only difference is that it is irresponsible and wrong for an lfs not to have the knowledge needed to properly care for their animals. If a customer should ask them, then that is when they would give their expertise.

When you buy a car from a car dealership do they teach you how to drive and how to repair everything in your vehicle? It is the responsibility of the consumer to research their purchase.

By the way, the reason fish products come with "informational" booklets and tapes is so they can shove more advertisement into your face. They also know consumers are stupid and thats where they tell you that you need "cycle" so that you go and pay hard earned money for a useless product. They give you just enough information so that you are moderately successful at keeping the fish from dying so that you dont get discouraged and return all the stuff you just bought.
 
Absolutely. I hate how right now in our country, there is no personal responsibility for anything. Hopefully, if you are buying a fish, you are an adult (emotionally or physically), and adults independantly research anything they are getting in to. I think that LFS employees should absolutely be educated to tell you really basic things like "don't mix bettas and guppies" or "don't put a goldfish in a bowl," but unfortunately it is hard to convince stores to sell and educate only about proper care, because of the things they sell don't lend themselves to proper care.
And I'm not saying newbie mistakes are completely unacceptable, because we are raised in a society where we've been told practically from the womb "fish don't have feelings, fish go in bowls, fish only live a week, fish are disposeable." However, I also don't think people should be completely exempt from responsibility just because they are "new to it." I don't think that excuse would fly if you were a parent and you left your infant in three inches of its own waste because you "didn't know how often you had to clean it; you're NEW to parenting."

Side note, I think that doing research is a must for any animal, from a snail to a parrot. I am planning on getting a breeding pair of button quail, for example. Did I get them at the fair when I talked to the breeder, because they were super cute and I want one? NO. I am researching everything I can find about them for a whole YEAR, and making sure I have the set up I need, back up plans if there is trouble homing them, a local vet who sees them, and the resources for a proper enclosure. I am a "newbie" to these birds, but I sure as hell don't expect the breeder to tell me everything, or to necesarily give me proper advice for the level of care I want. And if I mess up, it is going to be my fault entirely for not researching enough, not the breeder's.

Your absolutely correct cfc. Especially on the part about not buying the birds simply because you wanted one. Thats something most people would not be able to do. I don't know about other places, but in this country your taught to be ignorant and stupid, because its better for business, and your easily controlled.

Its how they kept the slaves in chains. Keep em stupid and they can't fight back. Keep the consumers ignorant and they keep buying, and killing, and destroying, and making the greedy rich. Educate them, then they can fend for themselves and the rich lose their meal ticket.

We have a war against terrorism, and war against drugs that wastes billions of dollars locking up people who smoked a harmless weed, but you'll never see a national "take responsibilty for yourself" movement.
 
Boxcar Muzzdogg said:
Absolutely. I hate how right now in our country, there is no personal responsibility for anything. Hopefully, if you are buying a fish, you are an adult (emotionally or physically), and adults independantly research anything they are getting in to. I think that LFS employees should absolutely be educated to tell you really basic things like "don't mix bettas and guppies" or "don't put a goldfish in a bowl," but unfortunately it is hard to convince stores to sell and educate only about proper care, because of the things they sell don't lend themselves to proper care.
And I'm not saying newbie mistakes are completely unacceptable, because we are raised in a society where we've been told practically from the womb "fish don't have feelings, fish go in bowls, fish only live a week, fish are disposeable." However, I also don't think people should be completely exempt from responsibility just because they are "new to it." I don't think that excuse would fly if you were a parent and you left your infant in three inches of its own waste because you "didn't know how often you had to clean it; you're NEW to parenting."

Side note, I think that doing research is a must for any animal, from a snail to a parrot. I am planning on getting a breeding pair of button quail, for example. Did I get them at the fair when I talked to the breeder, because they were super cute and I want one? NO. I am researching everything I can find about them for a whole YEAR, and making sure I have the set up I need, back up plans if there is trouble homing them, a local vet who sees them, and the resources for a proper enclosure. I am a "newbie" to these birds, but I sure as hell don't expect the breeder to tell me everything, or to necesarily give me proper advice for the level of care I want. And if I mess up, it is going to be my fault entirely for not researching enough, not the breeder's.

Your absolutely correct cfc. Especially on the part about not buying the birds simply because you wanted one. Thats something most people would not be able to do. I don't know about other places, but in this country your taught to be ignorant and stupid, because its better for business, and your easily controlled.

Its how they kept the slaves in chains. Keep em stupid and they can't fight back. Keep the consumers ignorant and they keep buying, and killing, and destroying, and making the greedy rich. Educate them, then they can fend for themselves and the rich lose their meal ticket.

We have a war against terrorism, and war against drugs that wastes billions of dollars locking up people who smoked a harmless weed, but you'll never see a national "take responsibilty for yourself" movement.
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Wasnt me who said that :blink: I think Random wicktor is owed the credit for that quote.
 

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