Some fish keepers are stupid

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CFC

Leader of the Fishes
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Time and time again we read the same old topics "Walmart employee's know nothing" "the staff at pet co. know less than the wart on my little brothers nose" "the guy at the lfs says bala sharks can go in a 10g tank with 300 goldfish" etc etc.

But wait!!!!

Here we are in the middle of the information age where anyone can find out anything they want to know within a few hours if not minutes. Fish keeping isnt rocket science and everything you need to know can be learnt from a book or by running a search on the internet in very little time. Those of us who do know a bit about fish weren't born with that knowledge, we learnt it by reading about it and yet time after time we hear people going on about how their lfs have missold them fish or that the guy in Walmart didnt pre warn them that a oscar would outgrow the 10g tank he sold them with it. Anybody who is able to get to a lfs is also able to get to a book store or library and lets face it not many people just walk past a fish store and think "hey, i think i'll go in and buy a tank and some fish", deciding to keep fish is a pre meditated act so there is no excuse for not at least buying a beginers guide to keeping fish type book before buying a tank.
It is a sad fact that many fish stores employ staff that know nothing about the fish they are selling, but the fish keeping business like nearly all hobby style businesses isnt one that makes a huge deal of money, infact you could say that the people who work there do it either out of love of the hobby or because they can't get a job elsewhere so it stands to reason that to come across a intellegent lfs employee is a pleasurable but rare experience. So next time you hear someone handing out bad advise dont just blame the staff, the person with the money in their hand is just as bad and if not worse than the person doing the selling.


Right i've finished so you can all flame me now :ninja:
 
CFC said:
Fish keeping isnt rocket science
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What :eek: ! What fool thinks it isn't? Arr, he be working for the enemy :grr: .

:lol: :blink:
Completely true, it takes about *times* 10 seconds to do a google for 'goldfish care' (as an example), then maybe another minute to visit, say, 5 links and find out what the general concencus is.
 
it is not rocket science but there is a lot of infomation but as you say easily found out on the web other wise this web site would be useless
 
All too true. I do think that some people buy tanks on impulse though. They may have thought about it from time to time for a while but never persued it until one day, in the local chain pet store, they see a tank and as they say the rest is history.

I did something similar to that last year when we got our first tank. I actually bought it for my wife as a Christmas present. She had mentioned a few times that she liked them and I have always loved how they look but never really thought much about buying one. The one difference in me buying this as somewhat of an impulse is that I bought it 2 weeks before Christmas and had time to do some research and our son had a couple tanks so he was able to give some advise too.

I think the reason more people don't do the research is that they probably had a goldfish in a bowl 10 years ago and they think that it's just a matter of buying a tank, adding water and fish and presto, a living ecosystem. They don't realize (I know I didn't) all the things that are involved in getting that system up and running AND keeping it in top condition.
 
Personally i think that was a bit of lame thread, especially as you are a moderator. Ive only recently joined this forum, and i have learnt a great deal from the topics and information discussed on here.

Ive spoken to some nice people, and ive noticed there some ones that really put themselves out there to help people, which i greatly respect. But im sick and tired already of people moaning about newbies, and thats all it is, moaning. There is also some people on here that like to pick at people. There was someone on here last week that posted a reply to someones thread, and all they had to say was critism on the size of their tank and what stock they have based on their signature. they didnt have anything to say about the actual thread topic. For a fish forum, i think this is all pretty pathetic..

'Friendliest forum around'... you should change it to 'just another typical internet forum'

Newbies are newbies. They are going to make mistakes, they are going to use the wrong information, but so be it. You guys should help them out and look back on when you first started. Im sure you all didnt read books etc before your first tank

Anyways, thats my rant over, i believe its my turn for the flaming now :p
 
I think the main problem here is the myth image that fish keeping is easy simple stuff that a 5yr old could do. It isn't.
When you start off in fish keeping, most people have the notion that all the fish will need is a tank, some water and some fish flakes. Ask the lfs staff how big the fish grows. And thats that.
Most people don't envision spending hours searching away on the internet on every aspect of keeping a single type of fish, learning about water chemistry and cycling, buying expensive water test kits, filters, heaters, dechlorinator, substrate, lighting and then finding they have to upgrade their whole tank system in a couple of months time because the fish has outgrown it.
And then theres all the heavy water changes, substrate cleaning and lets not go into when your fish get ill and start requiring expensive meds or your fish will only accept live food or you need to start learning about setting up a brackish or marine tank and more expensive gear.

The 2 main problems with under-knoleged fish keeping newb's are overstocked and cycling tanks- most people don't stop buying fish until the tank seems full to them and most people simply don't think of water chemistry or where all the fish pee goes and stuff. Most people figure that if they need to know more about fish keeping their lfs staff will tell them.

I think the main problem here is the image of fish keeping, if it were less "any 5yr old can keep a pet fish" or "fish keeping is a cheap hobby and fish make a great first easy to look after pets" and more "fish keeping is a time and money consuming hobby not suitable for young children" or "fish keeping is not an easy to pick up hobby and your tank can take months before it is totally stable", then perhaps people would think a little more about what goes into fish keeping, maybe?

I agree there are some stupid fish keepers out there but i think more than anything else there are arrogant ones.
Most people who start out in fish keeping and go very wrong very quickly are more than happy to accept proper knolege and advice when given to them, the kind of fish keepers that irretate me are the ones who think its fine to "experiment" with their already disaster of a tank and fish stocking or won't follow up advice at all.

Lack of knolegable staff is another issue that can't be helped realy- from what i gather the source of the problem is being a lfs employee is not a well paid job in the majority of cases and selling fish does not rack in a huge amount of cash. Training takes time and is expensive- as far as most lfs see it, why bother training your staff correctly about fish keeping if they are only going to sell less unsuitable fish and thus you get less money?
I do think more people should research when starting out in fish keeping, but as long as fish remain cheap and and the current images of fish keeping remain i think that is only wishful thinking...
 
I totally agree with Rdd. A lot of fault falls on the people for walking in blind thinking its just as easy as buying the tank, adding water & dumping in the fish. But then again the people are walking into Pet shops thinking they are going to get correct advice also. Yeah, it would probably take 10 minutes to do a little research first but its a busy world and who has time, right? They are just fish, if they die I can go and buy some more. People walk in not knowing exactly all that is involved. I used to think it was that simple.

I started in fishkeeping the same way as Rdd. I wanted to get a tank for my 8 yr old & wanted to get some livebearers thinking it would be an educational experience. I did a little research first on what fish to get then went to the store & picked out the tank. The guy told me let it run for 2 weeks then I can start adding about 3 fish per week. We started with a 20 gal so he said I could have about 20 smallish fish. At the time it seemed he knew what he was talking about. When I was younger my dad had a ten gal tank with an Angelfish, about 15 Cardinal Tetras & a huge pleco. I don't ever remember him changing water or cleaning the tank. Just fill it up when the water got low. I look back now & wonder how the hell he kept it running for so long.

It wasn't until I had about 10 fish in my 20 gal including a common pleco. They all started dying, then I actually did more research. I had done exactly what the guy at Petsmart told me to do so what was I doing wrong. I was 4 weeks into disaster. I figured out I was way overstocked. My tank hadn't cycled, I hadn't done a water change yet and I had Columnaris in the tank. I guess I liked "Ignorance is Bliss" better for awhile.

I do blame myself for not doing better research to start. I thought I had researched but it was quickly done. Then I took the advice of someone else not looking into what they told me either. Now I know better. Do my best to keep my tanks in tip-top condition and research everything I put in my tanks. I try now to pass along what I learned from my mistakes.


Everyone has to rant once in a while. Do you feel better now CFC?
 
AaronD said:
...'Friendliest forum around'... you should change it to 'just another typical internet forum'
You and I must be reading different forums then. While this place certainly isn't perfect (especially between June and September :whistle:), it's WAY friendlier than most internet forums, including most fish ones.

Newbies are newbies. They are going to make mistakes, they are going to use the wrong information, but so be it. You guys should help them out and look back on when you first started. Im sure you all didnt read books etc before your first tank
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Actually, I did a lot of research beforehand... here and elsewhere. And you know what? It worked. The gripe here is with the newbies who want to blame their fishkeeping problems on anyone other than the person actually caring for the tank. These are the ones that want the solutions to all of their problems handed to them, first by the LFS people, then when that doesn't work, by us. Then they get upset because we tell them something they don't want to hear. I'm not here to validate your bad decisions, I'm here to save your fish and hopefully in the process educate you.

Yes, there are people here who are overly harsh in judging people's aquarium issues. But those folks are a fact of life everywhere and they don't generally stay long here. And CFC certainly isn't one of them. He does a thankless job and he does it well. If you don't want to hear his very rare and very accurate rant, well... too bad. He's earned it.
 
kimbowee said:
Everyone has to rant once in a while.
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Ok, i agree with you on that one.. It just bugs me, every forum you go to on the net nowadays is full of newbie this newbie that. I think some people feel the need to go online and try and catch someone out...
 
rdd1952 said:
I think the reason more people don't do the research is that they probably had a goldfish in a bowl 10 years ago and they think that it's just a matter of buying a tank, adding water and fish and presto, a living ecosystem. They don't realize (I know I didn't) all the things that are involved in getting that system up and running AND keeping it in top condition.
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that is EXACTLY what happens...but these people usually try to ask lfs employees for help (not realising that most of them are useless) because shouldn't employees of a pet store know about what they are selling? that makes sense...doesnt it? :sly:
when i bought my computer, i asked for advice from the geeks working at the store (at the time, i didnt realize that they were working on commission) and i left with the computer they told me would best fit my needs. (ok-we shopped around a bit though)
that is no excuse for them not doing research...BUT...i do think it comes down to the lfs employees.



AaronD said:
Personally i think that was a bit of lame thread, especially as you are a moderator. Ive only recently joined this forum, and i have learnt a great deal from the topics and information discussed on here.

Ive spoken to some nice people, and ive noticed there some ones that really put themselves out there to help people, which i greatly respect. But im sick and tired already of people moaning about newbies, and thats all it is, moaning. There is also some people on here that like to pick at people. There was someone on here last week that posted a reply to someones thread, and all they had to say was critism on the size of their tank and what stock they have based on their signature. they didnt have anything to say about the actual thread topic. For a fish forum, i think this is all pretty pathetic..

'Friendliest forum around'... you should change it to 'just another typical internet forum'

Newbies are newbies. They are going to make mistakes, they are going to use the wrong information, but so be it. You guys should help them out and look back on when you first started. Im sure you all didnt read books etc before your first tank

Anyways, thats my rant over, i believe its my turn for the flaming now :p
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i think it was something that cfc said a while back but to repeat...
"friendliest forum around" does not mean we have to praise people for poorly stocked tanks.

"so be it" is a bad attitude to have when live animals are concerned.
as much criticism as the forum takes, it cant compare to the knowledge that the forum spreads. i have learned 50% of what i know about fish from this forum. when i came to the forum, all i knew about were bettas. i knew just about everything there is to know about them but had no idea tiger barbs were fin nippers, oscars get over a foot long or what a bala shark is. (basic things that come with a common knowledge of popular hobby fish) now i work at a lfs (petdumb) and i can help spread that information to newbies and experienced keepers alike.

believe me, working in a lfs will make you realise how uneducated people really are but i see that as an opportunity to properly educate them. for people who dont care to be educated, i can only politely say that this hobby is not for them.
 
You and I must be reading different forums then. While this place certainly isn't perfect (especially between June and September ), it's WAY friendlier than most internet forums, including most fish ones.

...dont forget ive only been on here probably not even a month, so these are my first impressions

CFC may well do a very good job, may be very dedicated to this forum, but never the less this is just another typical moaning thread i have seen in every other forum. Which im still surprised a moderator posted..
 
"so be it" is a bad attitude to have..

i agree, but that attitude i have is towards people who have already made the mistakes, and have the potential to learn from them by getting information off websites like this. It is not an attitude towards 'newbies' who are arrogant, and prepared to go against information they have been given
 
AaronD said:
You and I must be reading different forums then. While this place certainly isn't perfect (especially between June and September ), it's WAY friendlier than most internet forums, including most fish ones.

...dont forget ive only been on here probably not even a month, so these are my first impressions

CFC may well do a very good job, may be very dedicated to this forum, but never the less this is just another typical moaning thread i have seen in every other forum. Which im still surprised a moderator posted..
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Newbies are newbies. They are going to make mistakes, they are going to use the wrong information, but so be it. You guys should help them out and look back on when you first started. Im sure you all didnt read books etc before your first tank

This IS another forum. These are actual people here. I'm sorry to hear your first impression wasn't a good one then. When I first came here looking for answers to my screw ups everyone here was more than happy to help me. I had tried other forums without much luck. I asked questions they had all heard a thousand times before, probably just answered earlier in the day. I was another newbie who got myself into trouble. I din't want to listen to all of the advice I was given. Return my pleco, never. The LFS said it would grow to the size of my tank, etc etc.

Moderators acutally deal with it more than the rest of us. They are getting PM'd all the time, see the same questions all the time, people not wanting to follow advice given and want to argue about it because so and so didn't do it this way and it worked for them.

Why aren't they entitled to vent their frustrations once in a while? We are all human. You are venting your frustrations so why shouldn't a moderator occassionally do it? Sometimes when someone who has been lets say "stubborn" about their fish keeping read one of these posts and actually realize maybe there is more to it than the originally thought. Maybe what they are actually being told has been tried and tested. The people here do want to help. Forgive them in their days of ignorance, we all have them.

Just my $.02 worth.
 

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