Planning A Marine Aquarium

[garycooper34]

Hi Everyone,
 
I'm thinking with the possibility of starting a marine tank. The tank I have is 115L or 25 UK Gallons with an Eheim external filter and blue LED and fluorescent lighting.
 
I have read all the warnings, how to care etc etc so I don't really want to be bored with that, but I want to start planning what to stock it with and getting a rough cost.
 
 
Possible fish I have been considering (I don't mean I want to overstock and get all of these - just fish I have been considering):
 
2x clownfish
2x honey chromis
1x banded antenna goby
1x sergeant major
1x azure damselfish
1x flame angelfish
2x basslet
1x banded pipefish
 
Otherwise, a few snails and shrimps to help clean the tank.
 
Which of those listed are not compatible?
 
 
 
Also, with decoration of the tank, am I able to use fake corals etc and dead rock with normal sand or do I need to use coral sand etc?
 
If I need to use live corals and anenomies etc, what would I need to get and how much?
 
 
(Like I say, I'm just trying to price up at the moment and see if it would be something I would do)
 
 
Thanks,
Gary

 

[techen]

Okay, First of all. Please, Please do your research before looking into marine. Marine is a very costly hobby, A lot more so than Tropical fish keep.
 
The first thing I would recommend is to buy yourself a good stand, Get a sump made and get someone to drill the 115L and set up a overflow system in there. You really really want a sump system over a filter as a filter has a habbit of making nitrates and you don't want nitrates in a marine system. Also! A sump would hide the likes of a skimmer, heater etc so it makes for more room and more things to do.
 
I mean, you don't really want to be thinking of fish at the mo as there is a marine cycle.
 
You'll need to get yourself some live sand and some live rock for a quick, clean cycle. You can use dead rock but you must seed this with live rock anyway and leave it to cure which can take around 3 months. Not a fast process.
 
Also, After saying that. You'll need a place to get RO water, No one recommends tap water for marine as it can lead to very nasty issues and will more than likely make you quit very soon into it. So ask your LFS for RO water or get a RO unit and do it yourself!
 
Get good salt mix, The buckets are costly but they'll last awhile as your tank is only a nano anyway.
 
The blue LED I doubt will do anything in the way of growing corals, A good LED kit will set you back around 100-200 £ anyway.
 
The one fish off the top of my head I can see an issue with is a flame angel recommended for 100gal tanks.
 
You could get a clown pair, A nice goby in there, Few cleaner shrimp, Hermit crabs, Few others on the list but take in what I said first.

 

[Chad]

2x clownfish
2x honey chromis
1x banded antenna goby
1x sergeant major
1x azure damselfish
1x flame angelfish
2x basslet
1x banded pipefish
 
Which of those listed are not compatible?

In a tank that size (30 US Gallons) two ocellaris clownfish and a bottom dwelling goby of some kind would be appropriate. Damselfish, with only a few exceptions grow up to be mean, and generally change color so they aren't attractive anymore.
 
Pipefish are not aggressive feeders to putting them with damsels makes it difficult for them.
 
The Gold Assessor Basslet is a good fish but is very territorial as are most basslets don't mix them or keep more than one.
 
The Sergeant Major is a 6 inch fish when fully grown (15 cm) so way to big for that tank size.
 
Instead of the azure damsel I generally suggest the yellow tail blue damsel to people as it stays small and has a better temperament. However, mixing damsels and clownfish (they are related) is generally not a good idea. Both fish can be quite aggressive. I generally recommend ocellaris clowns as they are the least aggressive clown but even they are not to be trifled with.
 
I like flame angels but they require more swimming room than can generally be found in a tank that size. 200 liters is more like it, some say even larger.
 
As for aquascape I suggest live rock since it works as the biological filtration. It's called the Berlin Method and it works quite well.

 

[garycooper34]

I just mentioned the blue LED as a cool effect.
 
I would definitely get an R.O unit because buying the water from a shop costs just as much as buying a system and making it yourself.
 
As a sump, rock and fish would cost a lot all at once, surely it would be ok to set up the tank with say 10kg live rock, coral sand, protein skimmer, power head and the external filter to kick start the process. From what you have said, I wouldn't require a filter as such anymore, so I could soon remove this.
 
Then after cycling with 1 or 2 damsels, I could introduce more fish as the rock would play the filtration role and the skimmer keep nitrates at bay.
 
Then further down the line I could buy an ikea unit and put hinges on what would've originally been drawer fronts and that will hide the sump. I could then make the sump and put the skimmer, filter etc in that. Would this mean however that it would form a replacement for the rock in the aquarium so I could have either a sump or the rock?

 

[Chad]

No need to cycle with fish. Depending on the rock you buy a cycle may not even be required. Damsels are generally (with only a few exceptions) some of the meanest marine fish you can get. I would avoid them unless you get a tank that is quite large.

 

[garycooper34]

Ok.
 
How about when it comes to filtration.
 
In the meantime, if I had a decent amount of rock, coral sand, UV sterilizer (for good measure) and protein skimmer, would this be sufficient without a sump which I can then add a few months down the line?

 

[Chad]

Yes, the bulk of filtration is the rock, sand with the skimmer taking up about 20%. You can run cabon and GFO if you like once you get a sump and grow macro algae in it as an added means to take up nutrients. etc.

 

[CezzaXV]

The thing with sumps is this:

Overflow boxes are terrible and unreliable. Therefore, it is nearly always recommended you drill your tank, but you won't be able to do this if you already have your tank full of live rock and creatures.

I'm in the process of converting my 155L to marine (a process which has been going on since Boxing Day!), and I was actually quite surprised to find how few marine fish will actually be okay in a tank of that size, both in terms of the number of species and the number of fish that can be comfortably housed in it. Two ocerallis clownfish should be okay though, as they tend to stay small and less aggressive.

All filters do in marine tanks is tend to make nitrates. Live rock is all that is required to filter in a marine tank.

I highly, highly advise you to go do some research. There is A LOT more to marine fishkeeping than simply gathering some equipment together and putting some water in, and I get the impression you're rather unaware of the effort and commitment required. I was months into the process before I even allowed myself to consider what kind of fish I was going to keep.

As for a rough cost, I've spent £600 so far, and I don't even have live rock in my tank yet. By the time I get live rock,fish and CUC, I anticipate I will have spent £900-1000. Bear in mind that I already had the tank, lighting and heater!

 

[garycooper34]

I am fully aware of the research I need to do. Like I say at the moment, all I'm trying to do is cost everything up to see if i would even be able to afford it nevermind anything else, then I can move on to the next step and suddenly run out of money half way down the line.
 
The tank is currently tropical, so I do at least know something about fish care.
 
The problem with the internet though is there is too much information and you just end up wasting hours upon hours getting nowhere. Can anyone recommend a good marine fishkeeping book that I could buy and read through?

 

[Chad]

What equipment you need depends on the kind of tank you want to keep. A reef tank requires slightly different, and more costly equipment than does a fish only tank.
 
A simple marine tank can be quite affordable. While I always recommend liverock for a reef tank, other types of filtration can be used on a fish only tank.
 
So what is your ultimate goal for this tank?

 

[garycooper34]

My ultimate goal would be 5-6 fish with 1 or 2 shrimps and a few turbo snails. I would have some live rock, 1 or 2 anemones but otherwise fake coral inserts. No sump for the meantime. I would not really be looking to develop an entire reef tank.
 
Basically I don't want anything fancy and just something basic - something functional, tidy looking tank that works and doesn't look crowded - nothing special and would very much prefer the rock to be on full show.
 
Therefore, would my thoughts be sensible also about what I would need.

 

[CezzaXV]

Anemones are not generally known as being easy to keep. You also say you don't intend to develop an entire reef tank, but by choosing to keep anemones you are making your tank a reef tank which are a lot more complicated to keep than fish only systems. You're going to struggle to have all of the equipment you need for a reef system without a sump to hide it away in, and obviously all this extra equipment is going to come at extra cost. Anemones are going to require a lot more specific minerals (and specific levels of those minerals) in the water than fish on their own do, and they're also much less tolerant of toxins like nitrates.

You might struggle to find enough suitably small/non-aggressive fish to keep in a 115L tank, but 3-4 is probably more realistic, and the shrimps and turbo snails are definitely doable. You can also have some hermit crabs, should you wish.

A fish only system is definitely doable with what you have/are willing to put in, but I would forget about the anemones for the time being.

 

[garycooper34]

In that case then, I would go for fake only inserts except the rock.
 
 
I really would only want a few fish and lots of interesting bottom things are certainly on my agenda!
 
So, I can price this up:
 
10kg live rock                 £60                                Can I get away with less (ie what's the minimum so I will go somewhat over that)?
10kg Coral Sand            £20
Protein Skimmer            £25                                  (2nd Hand)
UV Sterilizer                   £15                                  (2nd Hand)
R/O Unit                         £30                                  (2nd Hand)
Salt                                £20
Livestock                        £100                                (Initial fish)
 
Total                              £270
 
 
I have a heater already.
 
Sell old driftwood and plants = - £20 = £250 overall.
 
 
Does this sound fair?

 

[Chad]

Anemone are very difficult and require very bright light.
 
A fish only tank requires just normal aquarium lighting, and can run off of a canister filter or live rock.

A UV unit is not required at all. I've never run one.

RO water is essential for a marine tank.

A protein skimmer is very handy, but if you don't buy a very good one (I recommend Reef Octopus) then it's just a waste of money.

 

[CezzaXV]

I agree, a UV steriliser isn't necessary, it's just a desirable addition. You can do without it.

Live rock you want a minimum of 1kg per 10L. You're 115L so 12kg would be a safe bet. You may be able to get away with 10kg, remembering that you're going to have some water displacement, but 12kg would be safe.

£25 for a protein skimmer and £30 for a RO unit is incredibly cheap, even second hand. I would wonder whether they're any good or if they're just going to cause you a headache later on.

I don't know how many stages the RO unit is (I'm guessing for that price, probably just one), but a new membrane normally comes in at about £20, and if you're only paying £30 I wouldn't expect the membrane to be in a usable condition. Since you can get a new one stage unit for £50, you'd be better off just doing that. It does depend on how good your tap water is though, as if it has a high TDS a one stage unit isn't going to manage to get it down ti 0. On a related note, you're also going to want a TDS meter to go with the unit.

You'll also want test kits; Salifert are the brand to go for mostly. Ammonia, Nitrate and pH are what you need to start off with, with Nitrite being a desirable addition. Once you've got fish you'll also want alkalinity and phosphate. With the phosphate kit go for a D&D one. They're more expensive, but are capable of actually testing in the range that we need, and a lot of the others don't.

For salt, I bought this as it was the best offer available at the time: http/www.portonaquapet.co.uk/Kent_Marine_Salt_26.3kg_Bucket-M12006
It should last me the best part of six months, so it's a great offer. With salt, the more you buy the cheaper it gets per kg, so don't be afraid to buy loads of the stuff. If you're serious about going marine and staying marine, it will never go to waste.

When I went marine I made myself a list of how much everything was going to cost me. I've learned since then that whatever your estimate is, you need to add at least 50% on top of it to get what the eventual cost is. You quickly learn that getting the cheapest of everything is not the way to go about it.