Lost 5 guppies in brand new tank - what to do next

[JCinPA]

I set up a 10 gallon tank as described in my Journal thread (link) And doing what I thought was the Kave Man Aquatics Seachem Prime & Stability routine, I put in 5 small guppied yesterday. All were dead this morning.

Log of activities:

04/27 1:00 p.m. EST- Finished setting up tank, undergravel filter, Marina S10 HOB filter, heater, thermometer, and did one ghost feeding.
Added one capful of Seachem Prime, one capful of Seachem Stability

04/28 1:00 p.m. EST - Dosed with 25 drops of Prime (eye dropper bottle) and half capful of stability. Added 5 small guppies, left light off for 3 hours.

04/28 6:00 p.m. EST - Very lightly fed with Fluval Bug Bites. They were not interested, so no more food that evening.

04/28 8:00 p.m. EST - Fish looked active, had started exploring the tank rather than all hanging out in one corner. Turned light off.

04/29 9:00 a.m. EST - Went to turn light on, five dead guppies

After disposing of the fish, I dropped water about 20% and took the opportunity to remove some gravel, rearrange the plants and heater, topped off water, dosed with 25 drops Prime and half capful of Stability. I figure there is some ammonia in the tank from the one ghost feeding, the fish being in there for 18 hours or so and one feeding. What to do now?

I'm not going to risk 5 more fish, that's for sure. I am tempted to add a single guppy, and continue with the Prime/Stability and wait a week. My API Master Test Kit arrives Friday. If I don't kill that one fish, I will add guppies, maybe 1 or 2 at a time once nitrates show up? Is this the right approach?

Open to any suggestions at all. I'm guessing I misunderstood the Kave Man Aquatics fish-in cycling thinking I could load it up. Maybe it's just to reduce stress no one fish? Thanks for any help.

 

[JCinPA]

I just read the cycling your tank stickies just now. Should have done that before, but thought I had learned enough from YouTube University. Guess not.

After reading that, I don't think the safe to put any amount of fish in a tank using Prime/Stability, although they probably do help quite a bit. I'm going to go get ONE guppy, and ask if they'll squeeze a sponge out into a bag for me, as well, and add those to the tank. No more fish until I get the API test kit.

I'll watch this for replies, and should have the test kit and be able to read advice before adding any more fish. Fingers crossed!

 

[bgarthe44 61]

First…..sorry for your losses. It happens to all of us at one time or another.

The KaveMan approach does work. I have done it with 3 33g tanks this spring, but I closely monitored NH3 (free ammonia…the bad stuff) and NH4 (Ammonium) constantly with both API testing and the Seachem Alert Tags that detect NH3 in the tank 24/7. The first thing to do is get to know your water parameters for your tank and tap water…..pH, KH, GH and temperature. Also, knowing what the source/seller of the guppies parameters are would help. How did you acclimate your fish from source to your tank? What was the temperature of the guppy bag and what temperature do you have your tank set to?

Using media from an established filter is good. The KaveMan approach encourages no water changes during treatment. I normally might have suspected chlorine/chloramine, but you dosed your Prime before adding fish.

To have 5 fish die all at once(imho) points to a major factor such as pH shock or GH shock. That’s why I hope you test for yours.

 

[GaryE4 2]

5 deaths points to an uncycled new set up, but also raises the question of sources. You wouldn't be the first aquarist to have a wipeout from guppies that arrived at the pet shop already compromised, and that you bought from an impending tank of death. The store can't always see that coming, but many chain ones simply net the dead every morning and sell on.

Fish bought online an be harmed in shipping as well.

I'm not overlooking the importance of carefully cycling or using an establlshed filter or media, but we are trained to blame ourselves in this hobby, and there is always the question of fish health from the store. Fish farm guppies are notorious.

 

[JCinPA]

Thanks for the reply, @bgarthe . I thought the Kave Man approach should work, and they looked very nice last night. I was pretty surprised.

The store is a mile from my house and we are on the same municipal water system, and I inquired about hardness yesterday. The clerk (who seems very knowledgeable) said hardness is never an issue and they don't do anything to change it at the store, so I'm assuming hardness is similar. PH, I have no idea. Wouldn't being on the same municipal water system mitigate that? I'm unsure.

As to temperature, I'm not sure what the store keeps their tanks at, but mine is 77.5*F. I floated their store bag in my tank for 20-25 minutes thinking that should be enough. I brought them home in a foam lunch cooler, too, so it didn't cool off too much.

So the tank was initially Prime/Stability dosed on Monday, again on Tuesday, and again today with a 20% water change after removing the dead fish. I cranked the little Marina S10 HOB up to max again. Hard to tell what the undergravel lift tubes generate but I'd be shocked if it doesn't flow the entire tank volume somewhere between 6-10 times. It's not under-filtered, for sure.

As I said I won't have a test kit until Friday. I agree all five looking good last night and being morts this morning indicates something is/was seriously wrong. What do you think of my one fish addition idea? It's Wednesday and I won't be able to test until Friday. One fish or wait?

 

[JCinPA]

@GaryE Thank you, too, for the reply. There are no tropical fish mom and pops near me, Petsmart is it for the moment. I could drive an hour or two later for fish, but I'm not inclined to just yet.

While I understand your comments about "industrial" raised fish, these 5 came out of 5 different tanks and all looked lively last night. I don't think all 5 dying simply because I bought them at PetSmart is a reasonable thesis, although it might be if they went slowly one at a time.

I also suspect 80% or more of people who keep guppies in small tanks don't have test kits. I'm either going to do the one fish with some filter squeezings, or just wait until Friday. bgarthe's success with the method has me leaning toward getting one fish and seeing what happens.

 

[JCinPA]

Local water quality reports put the township water PH at 7.4 for the store, 7.5 for me. I'm going to get one fish later today. Will report back.

 

[GaryE4 2]

The problem isn't in the petsmart or other chain tanks - it's the fact that wherever they end up tankwise, they are packed tightly in bags of several hundred often for days in transit. One of my local stores used to bring in guppies every Thursday, and lose 90% of them before the weekend until they finally found a supplier whose fish weren't sick (in Thailand).

Guppies and neon tetras seem especially susceptible. I suspect viruses. But like most people, you have no choice. Stressed and weakened fish to begin with can be trouble. Poorly cycled tanks will kill them more easily, and can do it quickly.

If they head for the surface and gasp, usually ammonia got them somewhere along the supply chain, or in the home aquarium.

 

[JCinPA]

Wow! That's wild!

UPDATE:

I went back to Petsmart and found they will test my water using test strips. They found nothing so out of whack it should have caused my losses. Anyway, I put one guppy in at 3:00 pm EST.

I won't do anything else until after my test kit comes. They're not believers in the Kave Man method (doesn't mean he's wrong, they just differ, I know many have done it successfully). But I think I will stop dosing the tank and just let this one fish start the cycle. He's not very big. At some point, when the ammonia is zero and nitrates are starting to show up, I'll add a couple more. Go slowly.

And based on this thread, I will drive a while to a mom & pop store. Maybe they have better fish. It's the transportation thing that surprised me.

 

[JCinPA]

I re-read the fish in cycling articles here, it makes my brain hurt. Then I researched both Prime and Stability and with the lowered bio load (the one guppy is only 1/2-3/4 inch long), I think I will keep them up. According to the sources I’ve found it is near impossible to overdose Stability, i.e., it is practically harmless if you do. The only potential issue with Prime that I’ve come across is “oxygen depletion”, which is temporary (like an hour). Given the one tiny fish in there, my two air stone lift tubes for the UGF, and the S10 HOB filter (turned it back to low flow), I’m not particularly worried about that.

God willing and the creek don’t rise, the one guppy will be OK tomorrow. I will exactly dose Prime tomorrow, I have an eye dropper bottle. I figure about 18 drops covering 9 gal (internal stuff like gravel likely take up a gallon at least). And apparently there is no reason to worry about Stability.

API Master kit comes Friday and I won’t be flying blind then. I’m going to be a lot more patient getting this tank up to capacity, though. I’ll try to ascertain when the Petsmart gets fish deliveries, and then go looking the day before a delivery to try to avoid sick fish or fish traumatized by the travel.

 

[Essjay43 158]

Did the store's strips test for ammonia? Those 5 or 6 in 1 strips don't, ammonia has to be on a separate test strip. Ammonia is the first thing to appear in an uncycled tank and if they used strips that don't measure ammonia that could still be a possibility.

At some point, when the ammonia is zero and nitrates are starting to show up, I'll add a couple more. Go slowly.

Nitrite has to be zero as well as ammonia. That appears after ammonia as the ammonia eating bacteria have to grow to make nitrite so nitrite always lags behind ammonia.

 

[GaryE4 2]

I used to be invited for shipments at a local store that bought from the farms. Plus I did some work with a place that only handled wild caughts, and the health issues for the farmed fish were deadly in comparison.

It's an industrial process. They don't even call them fish. They're "units". It's an efficient business model, but not necessarily a very ethical one. They have to get the fish here from the farms, many of which are stock exchange listed corporations, and the farms are in Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore or Indonesia. That's quite a trip...

 

[Essjay43 158]

Forgot to mention - when your test kit arrives, the ammonia and nitrite testers are straight forward. But nitrate is a bit different. It has 2 bottles and bottle #2 has to be shaken well before adding the drops, and the test tube then shaken well. It contains a reagent that settles out on the bottom of the bottle and all the shaking is to get it back into the liquid. Not shaking is the main cause of an inaccurate nitrate reading.

 

[JCinPA]

Hello, @Essjay the author of the cycling articles! I don’t know enough about the tests they did, but I believe they had ammonia in it. I will learn more when I get the API kit and play with it.

I wish I knew about doing a fish less cycle with ammonia product, but just learned about that today. I’m hoping the one little fish will get things started. And I’ll just be old school slow about adding more, like back in the old days.

 

[JCinPA]

I’ve watched several YooToobz on using the kit. Hopefully I’ll figure it out. I did notice that some tests have two reagents, and there is a specific technique you must follow for them to be accurate. I’m fairly detail oriented and somewhat OCD, so I think I’ll get it.

It’s also why I think I’ll be bugging The Boss™ to let me do a larger tank in a living area. I can see I’m likely to get hooked on this.