Help! Can't get NitrAtes down....

[adrianne8288]

I have a question for "steelhealr"...
Can you tell me more about:
"Consider adding a refugium with macroalgae to help with nitrates in the tank"
Is this a product that I can purchase from the LFS?
Is it something that the puffer will leave alone when added to the tank?

Thanks!

 

[fraservet]

Well you're not asking me but I will answer anyway - I have a refugium set up on my tank.

A refugium is essentially a sump with a special substrate to promote macroalgae growth and to release useful elements/compounds into the water to improve coral growth and fish health. Macroalgae - such as caulerpa (although it's not the best one) - is placed in the sump and absorbs nitrates for growth. you then harvest some of the growth and remove it from the system (note - feeding it to your fish does not remove the nitrates from the system).
In it's truest form, a refugium is literally a refuge for all sorts of life that will be eaten in your main tank. It is a breeding ground for all the little pods that some fish feed on, and that are an important part of the whole ecosystem.


So, if you have a sump already you can turn it into a refugium. If not things are a little more difficult as you have to have a means of moving water between the 2 - either an overflow and return pump, or drilling your tank and putting in some pipework and a return pump.

Since it is not part of the main tank, it will not effect your puffer - apart from improving his health in the long term.

Ecosystem sell ready made refugiums with everything you need - however this is more expensive than a diy version, and you still have to work out how water will move.

I think they also do a hang on back type, but it is only suitable for smaller tanks - up to 60 gallons (us).

Ecosystem Website

I suggest you have a thorough read of the above website - also Navarre is a good source of information on refugiums.

One other point - technically a refugium should be above the tank so that all the nice bugs can flow nicely into the tank without being ripped to pieces by the impeller. However this is an area of disagreement, and wont really matter for nitrate reduction.


- with regard to your nitrates, really it should not be possible for you to change 40% of 0ppm water in your tank with the high nitrate water that is there, without getting a reduction in the levels at least for a while.

Try getting 200ml of tank water in a jug, and adding 150ml of "new" salt water to it and measure the nitrate before and after - if there is really no change there is something very odd going on.

Also what buffer are you adding? I remember reading that there is something that can cause high nitrate readings.

 

[adrianne8288]

Wow,
Thanks for asking me to measure 200ml of tank water (testing at 20 ppm for nitrAtes) mixed with 150ml of fresh mixed salt water because I was EXTREMELY INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.... it STILL tested 20 ppm.
I AGAIN tested my RO water... and it measured -0-
The only factor being added to this equation is the sea salt.... can there be something wrong with the salt? I use Oceanic brand sea salt... I read the back... it specifically says that nitrAtes have been removed to reduce algae growth.
If I am adding RO water with ZERO nitrAtes how can it not change the reading?

 

[steelhealr]

I'm presently using Oceanic. If your RO is tesing negative, the nitrates are not coming from the SW you are making. Something is either making the nitrates....overfeeding, dead snail, dead fish....or...collecting detritus: sponge, filter, substrate....or not removing it: no refugium or skimming or water changes. It's a matter of being Sherlock Holmes now to figure out where the problem is. Sounds like you can exclude 'external sources", ie introduction from your SW (you DO top off with it RO too, right? ). SH

 

[fraservet]

Adrianne - not sure how much of that was sarcasm? but anyway.

Unlesss my knowledge of chemistry is really off, your result should not be possible.
The measurement is in parts per million - therefore if it is diluted, the parts per million must drop.
You're probably getting sick of doing this, but I would do the same again - and test the tank water, the ro water before adding salt, the ro water after adding salt, and the combined mixture - if you have 200ml of each, and the water you are adding is 0ppm, the result SHOULD be 10ppm - I assume your test kit would show a very different colour for this amount?

Sounds to me like if the ro is 0ppm, there might be a problem with the salt?

Let me know how you get on - this is really bugging me!

 

[adrianne8288]

fraservet - absolutely no sarcasm here. I just thought your idea was brilliant - I was truly excited about seeing my tank water test at something other than hot pink.... even if it was mixed with clean sw. I never would have thought to do what you said- hope you understand there was no sarcasm. I will not use caps anymore (promise).
I did what you said to do: I tested my tank water (20ppm), and I tested my mixed salt water (0 ppm). Then I added 200ml of each to a container and tested... the thing I hate about this test kit is that I have to wait 5 min for the color to develop. I was excited at first because it really started out with a lighter color than it usually is. Then it developed right on up to the deep hot pink that I have been getting after waiting 5 min that represents 20 ppm. I went ahead and kept going because I wanted to see how much fresh mixed sw it would take to change the color down from 20ppm to 10ppm: 400 ml of fresh sw to 200 ml of tank water.... crazy huh? I wish, I wish, I wish there was a Tropical Fish business out here that had someone who you could pay to come and check out your tank and experience this craziness with me : )
So today I am doing the following: I am checking both filter systems (sponges and ceramic beads and rocks etc....) I am continuing on with the 20 gallon water change. I am going to pick up a new test kit at the LFS. I am going to drop by a new Fish Store that I have never been to before (it's far away) because they carry the EcoSystem you told me about (I am not sure if I can attach one to my tank - so it is only for research gathering this first time).
I will post an update tomorrow -
Thanks again for everyone's info and support!

 

[adrianne8288]

I'm presently using Oceanic. If your RO is tesing negative, the nitrates are not coming from the SW you are making. Something is either making the nitrates....overfeeding, dead snail, dead fish....or...collecting detritus: sponge, filter, substrate....or not removing it: no refugium or skimming or water changes. It's a matter of being Sherlock Holmes now to figure out where the problem is. Sounds like you can exclude 'external sources", ie introduction from your SW (you DO top off with it RO too, right? ). SH

[snapback]851228[/snapback]​

Yes, I do top off with RO water (mixed with the salt of course).
I am checking all of the filters and the skimmer (although I assume the skimmer is okay because there is always gunk in the cup each day - or is there another problem I should look for with the skimmer equipment)?

 

[fraservet]

first of all - DO NOT add mixed salt water for top ups - only the water evaporates, not the salt so over time this will increase your specific gravity, just use plain RO water.

with regard to your latest test, at least the nitrates did drop eventually - there is probably a chemistry reason why you needed to add so much, but it's beyond me.
With water changes, the nitrates will come down eventually - it might just take a bit more time - as long as there is no nitrate source in your setup.


with regard to having a business that can check out your tank - they do exist, but can be expensive - I have considered doing something of the sort myself.

where are you? you never know, you could be really close by someone here who might be able to come round and have a look (it's much easier with the tank in front of you to identify a problem).
alternatively, we may be able to advise you of a good lfs in your area.

 

[adrianne8288]

Thanks for all of the additional info.
Sorry about the salt thing - I should have explained better - I measure the salinity first and if it is low, I add salt... if it is not low then I just add the water.

I checked out my filter systems... they were actually pretty gunky. I dumped the water out of each one into a bucket... I let the sediment settle to the bottom, then I rinsed out the filters and rock in that water. I then waited for the sediment to settle again and used a jug to scoop water from off the top to put back in the filters because I know I am taking a chance with cleaning both of them out at the same time.
I went to the new -to -me lfs that carries the refugium you were telling me about (got their name off the website as an authorized dealer) and they do not carry them, but can order them. The sales assoc. asked me questions about my tank and I got info from him that made me very uncomfortable... he said nitrAtes at 20ppm was nothing to worry about in a fish only tank and that it was impossible to get to zero in most tanks. He said that I did not need the refugium (excuse me if I am spelling this wrong). He told me to not worry about the blisters on the puffer (even though I told him they were getting worse) and that they were probably from my PH problem 3 months ago - and he sugested live rock for my puffer to chew on.
I left and went to my LFS that I have used from the beginning- they have always been really helpful (they just did not carry that ecosystem).
They tested my nitrAtes with a different kit (she said it was more exact) and found them to be at 100 ppm! I watched her test to make sure she was not messing up and doing it wrong... she read the directions the whole time.
Here is what she sold me:
A gravel substance called "De-Nitrate" to put in a little bag for both of my filter systems... she said it would take a couple of months to kick in. She also told me to keep an eye on the filters and maybe clean one at a time every two weeks along with the frequent water changes.
She also gave me a liquid called "Melafix" that is all natural and helps to heal/repair ulcers, fins and open wounds. Looks like you add it daily to your tank.
She also gave me more of this PH Buffer that comes in a powdery/crystal form that I used before to raise my PH when it went to zero 3 months ago. She said that she adds it to her new tank water because she has an RO system like me and she said the PH is never high enough in RO water. She also said that my PH was still kind of low (7.7 to 8.0) and it needed to be around 8.5.
We talked about live rock and she said that it would die if you add stuff like "melafix" to the water and that a better way around that would be to give the puffer a dead coral to chew on (so I bought a small one).

Can you give me your opinion on this info..?
I really appreciate it!

* I live in Queen Creek, Arizona and there are only a handful of Tropical Fish Stores in the area of Phoenix. I could probably go back to my LFS and find out if they could come out if I paid them alot - although they actually come out to set up your tank for free if you purchase one from them - or if they could possibly recommend someone.
I really think the filters were part of the problem (along with the bad RO filters) and I am going to give it one more week to come down. If it does not - then I will try to find someone to come and take a look - by then I will have exausted all avenues.
Thanks again for all of your input!

 

[fraservet]

I checked out my filter systems... they were actually pretty gunky. I dumped the water out of each one into a bucket... I let the sediment settle to the bottom, then I rinsed out the filters and rock in that water. I then waited for the sediment to settle again and used a jug to scoop water from off the top to put back in the filters because I know I am taking a chance with cleaning both of them out at the same time.

shouldn't really be a problem - you are just cleaning the filters, rather than replacing them

he said nitrAtes at 20ppm was nothing to worry about in a fish only tank and that it was impossible to get to zero in most tanks

partially true - 20ppm is not a huge concern, but lower is better. you will probably never get to zero, but you have a pretty low stocking density at the moment so you should be able to keep the nitrates down easily.

He said that I did not need the refugium

do you NEED the refugium - no. would the refugium improve conditions in your tank, keeping the nitrates and phosphates etc. down, and make your fish healthier - yes.

He told me to not worry about the blisters on the puffer (even though I told him they were getting worse) and that they were probably from my PH problem 3 months ago

you should never not worry about an injury/disease in a fish, especially if it involves broken skin.

and he sugested live rock for my puffer to chew on.

give the puffer a dead coral to chew on

both somewhat dubious, puffers need hard substances occasionally to keep their beaks trimmed, but they wont just sit there chewing on rocks. Feed them shell on shrimp or whole cockle in shell occasionally, it keeps their beak short, and gives them something to do.

They tested my nitrAtes with a different kit (she said it was more exact) and found them to be at 100 ppm

I really cant see that this would be accurate, is it still testing at 20ppm on your kit?

A gravel substance called "De-Nitrate" to put in a little bag for both of my filter systems... she said it would take a couple of months to kick in. She also told me to keep an eye on the filters and maybe clean one at a time every two weeks along with the frequent water changes.

probably will help - never used it myself, make sure you follow instructions about replacing it - as otherwise it might leach things back into the water.

We talked about live rock and she said that it would die if you add stuff like "melafix" to the water

melafix is very good - I don't see why it would cause problems with the lr.

She also gave me more of this PH Buffer that comes in a powdery/crystal form that I used before to raise my PH when it went to zero 3 months ago. She said that she adds it to her new tank water because she has an RO system like me and she said the PH is never high enough in RO water. She also said that my PH was still kind of low (7.7 to 8.0) and it needed to be around 8.5.

well pH will never go to zero - it is mathematically impossible (exponential curve and all that)

you shouldn't need to add a buffer, because the salt mix should buffer the water to the correct pH.
your pH is low, shold be 8.2-8.4.
may have asked this before, but do you have a coral sand/aragonite substrate in the tank - if so it also should help buffer the pH.

Hope this helps - will think more, but have to go as late for work

 

[adrianne8288]

Thanks for all of the reassurance... looks like I am not getting ready to head in the wrong direction with any of this.
I will keep testing the nitrAtes.... the old test kit still tests at 20ppm, but I also purchased the new kit that they used in the fish store, and I have gotten 100ppm also.
I think I will just keep changing water and keeping an eye on the filter systems. Although here is a question they were not able to answer for me in either fish store:
How much gunk (whispy brown stuff) should be in loose in your filter tanks? I understand that the spongy filters should be cleaned/rinsed each time you clean the tank... but is pooring off the whispy-gunky stuff from the filter water a good thing to do each time - or am I sending beneficial bacteria to their early deaths?
Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[fraservet]

How much gunk (whispy brown stuff) should be in loose in your filter tanks? I understand that the spongy filters should be cleaned/rinsed each time you clean the tank... but is pooring off the whispy-gunky stuff from the filter water a good thing to do each time - or am I sending beneficial bacteria to their early deaths?
Thanks again for all of your help!

[snapback]852791[/snapback]​

the amount of gunk depends on the amount of waste/debris being produced in the tank.

as long as you are keeping the filter medium and not rinsing it with tap water, the filter bacteria will be ok.

I don't touch my filters very often - only if they seem to be clogging up (i.e. the flow rate decreases) or every few months for a good clean.

what kind of filters are you running? and what sort of filter material do you have in them?

 

[adrianne8288]

The first filter is a Filstar. It has two baskets... the one on the bottom contains two corse black sponges, then a finer black sponge. The chamber above this one has a charcoal bag (and this is the space I put the bag of De-Nitrate in) and then it is topped off with a fine white filter. I emptied all of the water out of this today because it had alot of white whispy stuff in it this time. I am not certain that it was hindering the filtering ability of the sponges etc... but I am just so wanting the nitrAtes to go down.
The second filter system I have is an Ehiem. It is just a circular canister that contains a layer of ceramic beads - then a thick blue sponge and then a layer of rock (which I again added the bag of De-nitrate rocks to this layer), and then a fine white filter. I did not open this canister this morning... I did clean it out a couple of days ago like I mentioned.
I don't think I answered your question about the bottom of my tank. I have black gravel and a black sand (which I wish I had not used because a certain amount of it just get sucked out of the tank when I clean the gravel).

 

[fraservet]

"black gravel and black sand" sounds like standard freshwater type substrate.
I would definately recommend changing to aragonite or similar - this will help sort out the pH.

Ceramic media, like in the eheim is good. Filters with just sponges may not be as good - can the filstar sponges be replaced with other media? (over a period of time of course). If not I would consider changing it for another eheim - a wet/dry is a good option for a FO tank.

 

[adrianne8288]

I will work on changing out the gravel.... it will probably be a difficult task, huh?
Getting another ehiem is not a problem. I like the ehiem better anyway...

Thanks again for all of your help- I really appreciate it!