Fry in Tank, how to W/C, etc. And UNIQUE female. And tank pics.

[Vengified]

And, after I wrote that, I went to check on the gourami, and he had passed. A matter of minutes. Now my guppy female is depressed. Or just about ready to give birth. Or both. Definitely not getting another gourami... I have used poly filter too, just to make sure I'm not getting some sort of contaminant in the tank. Nothing shows on those. I dont use window cleaner or anything like that on the tank. The only thing I've ever used is vinegar, which I've read is safe, and only on the outside. I am SOOOO OCD about the fish and the tanks, and it's really disconcerting to keep losing fish...

 

[Colin_T]

Avoid dwarf gouramis (Trichogaster lalius) and all their colour varieties at all costs. They are just rubbish fish and riddled with diseases like the Iridovirus and Tuberculosis. Neither of these diseases can be treated and once in a tank are there for good.

So do not add any more gouramis or Bettas to that tank because they can catch the Iridovirus even 12 months after the original gourami died. And unfortunately, any fish can catch TB or the Iridovirus so you will have to watch and wait and hope the guppies are fine.

The Iridovirus is a stress induced virus so as long as the fish are not stressed out and are fed well and kept in good water, they should not develop any symptoms.

TB can take 12months or more before it starts killing fish. The TB bacterium lives inside the fish and slowly spread over and through the internal organs. Then one day an organ ruptures and the fish balloons up, breathes heavily, stops eating, does stringy white poop and dies within 24 hours of ballooning up.

Both of these diseases can be spread by contaminated water, fish, plants ornaments and gravel/ substrate.

Make sure you wash your hands and arms well with warm soapy water after doing anything in the tank. People can get a localised infection from TB but it can only occur if you have open wounds in your skin (a cut or scratch). If you have any cuts or scratches on your hands or arms then do not get aquarium water on them. If you have cuts or scratches and have to work in the tank, then wear a pair of rubber gloves to keep the water off the skin.

If you get a sore on your hand or arm and it doesn't heal quickly (within a week or two), and you go to a doctor, tell them you keep fish and have concerns about fish TB and get them to take a swab of the wound and send it off for culturing.
DO NOT take anti-biotics until you have the results from the swab.

TB bacteria are extremely hard to kill and you need to use the correct anti-biotic for the specific strain otherwise it won't do anything.

Having said all this the fish probably has the Iridovirus and not TB.

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I'm reluctant to suggest adding any fish to a tank that has had dwarf gouramis in. But if you want a fish, perhaps add a school or Melanotaenia praecox rainbowfish. They grow to about 1 inch, are blue, males have red fins, females have yellow/ orange fins. They do well in alkaline water and move about in a group so you need between 6-10 of them.

Another group of rainbowfish you could look at are the Pseudomugils like Pseudomugil signifer, P. gertrudae or possible even captive bred Iriatherina werneri, altho these might get bullied by the guppies.
There is information about rainbowfish at the following link.
http://rainbowfish.angfaqld.org.au/Melano.htm

 

[NickAu]

and you go to a doctor, tell them you keep fish and have concerns about fish TB

DO NOT take anti-biotics until you have the results from the swab.

While the first sentence is good advice, the second one is pointless its not like you can get antibiotics without a prescription, I think the doctor knows better

 

[Colin_T]

The statement is in reference to most doctors that prescribe anti-biotics without knowing what bacterium is causing the problem.

I have seen a number of people with fish TB infections in their hands and arms and the doctors stick them on anti-biotics before finding out what is causing the problem. The person then gets put onto different anti-biotics after the swab/ lab culture has come back.

If you are going to take anti-biotics, you need to know exactly what species of bacteria you are treating, and exactly which strain you are treating because one anti-biotic might work on one strain but not the other strains of bacteria.

Strains of bacteria are not different species. They are the same species but have mutated to a degree and are more or less tolerant of certain medications.

 

[Vengified]

Thank you for the advice guys! I always make sure I wash and rinse, and rinse again, and rinse again, before hands in the tank. And wash and rinse after as well. I almost ALWAYS have cuts or wounds on my hands, I use them daily (obviously, like anyone) but work on cars, and diy home projects. I usually try to put on nitrile gloves at the minimum, and if it's a sizable wound, I always peroxide and neosporin. Havent had an issue yet. I do need to invest in a pair of long gloves though, just never think to grab any when I'm at the store.

I have read about NOT doing ANY dwarf gourami, or betta in the tank @Colin_T so I didnt plan on getting anymore of those. I've read that "Thick-Lipped" or "Honey" gouramis are NOT susceptible to the iridovirus, so do you believe this to be true as well? Not saying I want one, not even sure what they look like, or their size. I know full size gouramis are too big for my community tank, and apparently more territorial?

I do NOT intend to go out tomorrow and buy any fish for the community tank. I will be taking the gourami in to the store, but I'll probably do credit and get some more shrimp for my shrimp tank. I plan on holding off on any fish of any kind for a while, a month or two if not longer. If I do get any more, I would like to find a fish that does well in a community tank, but does not need a school of their own species, hence why I chose gourami, as I had read they get along well with guppies, but dont require being in schools of like species, and prefer being the sole specimen of their species. So that's what I meant when I had asked for a suggestion. I will take a look at the ones you suggested still though.

I also think, for the future, if I plan to invest in any livestock, more than $4, I will be finding a reputable breeder (if there is one even in my state) or going to the mom and pop fish store, and inquiring of their source, rather than the chain stores I had previously purchased from. I value all my pets lives, but the fact is, losing a $2 guppy or shrimp, painful as it is, isnt the same as a fish that's bigger and 5x or more the cost, on top of the fact that guppies and shrimp breed like CRAZY, so finding one dead shrimp, isnt as much of a heartbreak. I dunno if it sounds cruel, or morally wrong, but it's the honest truth. Even having the gourami a short time, I became quite attached, and dont want to get attached over and over, just to lose fish way before their time.

Sorry for rant. Thank you again for your help! @Colin_T you are a true fishipedia, and a great source of information!

 

[Colin_T]

Any fish can catch the Iridovirus, that includes all types of big and small gouramis, Bettas, tetras, barbs, basically if it's a fish living in fresh water, it can catch the virus. The fish sold as Dwarf Gouramis (Trichogaster lalius) and their colour varieties are commonly infected with the virus. Most other types of gourami are not infected with the virus. This is because they are farmed on different properties by different people in Asia. The dwarf gourami breeders have infected ponds and fish whereas most of the other gourami breeders do not. This doesn't mean all the other gouramis are safe. They can get contaminated at the exporters in Asia, the importers in your country, or even at a local petshop. It just means most other types of gourami are less likely to have the Iridovirus compared to the common Dwarf Gourami.

Indian Banded Gouramis (Colisa fasciata) & Thick Lip Gouramis (Trichogaster labiosa) grow to about 2 inches long and are relatively peaceful. Honey Dwarf Gouramis are smaller and only get to about 1.5 inches long and are also peaceful. Male gouramis are territorial and argue with other males but the small species are more tolerant of other males. You can keep them individually or in prs or small groups.

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If you look for an aquarium society (fish club) in your town, you will be more likely to find local breeders there. They will also know of good shops to visit and who to talk to at those shops.

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As for getting fish from mom and pop shops vs chain stores, most shops get their fish from the same suppliers, and most importers get their fish from the same breeders in Asia. If you can get German bred stock, they are usually very good but cost more. However, you need to get the fish before they are put into a shop tank where they can pick up the virus. The easiest way to do this is to order the fish in and go to the shop before the fish arrive. Then grab the bag of fish straight out of the esky and take them home. Do not let the shop add the fish to the shop tanks. The shop can replace the air in the bags but you do not want shop water added to the bag. Take the fish straight home in the bags they came in and acclimatise them to your tank. If there are any dead fish in the bag at the shop when they first open the boxes of fish, then only take the fish if they guarantee to replace any more that die, and open the bag, remove the dead fish and leave them with the store to get a credit from their suppliers, then seal the bag back up.

This probably seems like a lot of work and to most shops you will be considered a pain in the blank. But if you are dealing with unusual expensive fish, the fewer tanks they go into, the less chance of them picking up weird diseases.

 

[Vengified]

Thanks for the tip for expensive fish @Colin_T I wouldn't care if I'm a pain to the employees at the LFS for a reason like that. I spend enough money there, with enough of their markups, that if I want something done a certain way, and am paying for the product, I deserve the right to choose the way it is presented to me. But I dont know that I'll go into any truly expensive fish for quite some time.


I have done some searching on the net for a local aquarium/fish club, and can find nothing of the sort. I asked one of the chain stores, they were unaware of any, but I havent been back to the mom and pop store in a bit, I'll have to ask them as they have been here decades, and a lot longer than the chain stores. I usually go to them first for fish/plants (although they only carry 2 types of plants) but I go to chain stores for maintenance products like conditioner, as I can't justify the excessive markup on those products at the local store.


I did get another gourami. A honey gourami, though I'm unsure of whether its male or female, partially because of its marking on the side, and cuz of how sometimes its colors seem paler, due to the bright white LEDs I think, if he/she is close to surface. This one is acting a LOT more normal. I know, I keep rushing into things before I check on here for a response from you, cuz I had read that honey was immune to it, not just that they aren't as commonly plagued by it. Hopefully I didnt mess up, or hopefully keeping pristine water will help keep any illness at bay? I did start using purigen too. Not sure why, since even my nitrates have not been high since the hornwort went crazy in my tank! But I had read it was a good "water polisher" and in my mind, that meant it would get rid of the floaty specks I seem to have. You can't see the specs unless your nose is on the glass, and even then you dont always see a lot of them, just little microscopic grains of salt looking dots, but I figured purigen wouldn't hurt? I do use a sponge on filter intake, and then the coarse sponge, biomax, and filter floss(for seeding also) in the filter already.


Also @Colin_T I seem to recall (forgive me if I'm wrong) you telling me it's a good sign, if the guppy fry look like pregnant females? That it's good to feed them to fatten them to grow? The 100 or so in my small tank, aren't that way, yet, but my main tank where I have a half dozen or so bigger 1 month olds, do look this way. I have reduced to one feeding per day most days, but feed twice on WC day (do the WC late evening), and those guys are FFFAAAAATTTTTT. So they are mostly getting it from picking at micro organisms and driftwood and hornwort, etc. This is good yes?


I am posting a few pics down below of fat babies, the gourami, and the tank with hornwort going nuts. LmK what you think if you get a chance? Thanks!

FRY - ONE WEEK OLD

FRY - FAT 4.5 WEEK OLD

FRY IN MY DIY AUTO FROZEN FOOD FEEDER

HONEY GOURAMI - (Unsure if M or F)

TANK VIEW - (Growing well!)

 

[Colin_T]

The picture of the little fat guppy (Fry-fat 4.5 weeks old) is what you want all baby fish to look like. Basically feed them so they have fat little stomachs. And feed them regularly to keep their stomachs fat.

When they have a full stomach, the food takes longer to digest so they remain full for longer and get the nutrition from the food over a longer period of time. Same thing with people and all animals, you have a big meal and you feel fuller for longer because there is a larger mass of food in your stomach that takes longer to digest.

You don't want to reduce their feeding to once a day until the babies are full grown. With guppies that should take about 3 months if they get good food, warm water, and regular water changes.

Newly hatched brineshrimp and microworms are two of the best foods for baby livebearers, and when used in conjunction with a powdered flake food the fry should grow rapidly. Feed dry food first, then microworms, then add newly hatched brineshrimp that can swim around for a few hours while the babies eat them.

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I have no idea what sex your gourami is, you will just have to let it mature and see what it looks like in 6 months time.

 

[Vengified]

Thanks @Colin_T I figured that's what I'll do about the gourami. Gotta get rid of all these dang guppy fry anyways!

I do have one that is rather fat and lumpy right now, actually put up a thread in emergencies, cuz it looks like she swallowed a BB, or a tiny rock or something, with just one large lump on one side of her body? It's weird. I separated her, waiting to see if anyone knows anything?

I know it probably doesnt make much sense, but I have been monitoring the babies in the little tank, feeding 4× daily, as opposed to the few that outwitted me in the big tank, who get fed the same as my adults, which is 1-2× a day (some days I just feed once at night, in an attempt to not overfeed and keep snail population down) but somehow, the babies in the big tank, grow just slightly faster than the small tank. The temp in small tank fluctuates a little, between 80-82°F, compared to a solid 78°F in the big tank. The big differences being the big tank has a lot more light, more plants, and a WAYYYYYY stronger current. That and it has the adults too, as well as the gourami. I would think they would starve, and be skinny from running, but they are fat, the big tank is the one that I took the pics of the fat one month old, who lived in that tank from day one! So maybe they just bulk up from the work out?

But now, I'm stressing the separation of M/F fry... I dont mind so much if they aren't "virgin" cuz I'm not a "pro breeder" and not focusing strains, but I do NOT want 50 females ( if half of the 100 are female) each dropping 100 babies (I know they wouldn't their first time, but you know what I mean) because then I'm gonna have to euthanize in bulk, and I cant do that, ethically I just couldnt do it! Some I can tell, some dont seem to have any sign of gravid spot or of gonopodium. I read somewhere though, that they can get pregnant at 6 weeks and have first birth at 10 weeks! I only have a few at 5 weeks, but I wanna get good at this before I am over run!

I did put the few females, or what I think is females, in the 10g, with diy divider from the small babies and the shrimp. One got weird lump, we will see how that goes though.

In either case, thank you for all the advice you have provided and continue to provide! I knew I remembered you saying make the fry look pregnant so they grow faster!

 

[Colin_T]

The few remaining babies in with the adults could be growing faster because their tank is bigger (longer) and has more water volume, and this would reduce the amount of growth inhibiting hormones they are exposed to.

Baby fish produce a hormone to inhibit the growth of other fish around them. In a large volume of water with only a few baby fish, the amount of hormone in the water will be very small and not affect any of the babies in there. However, if you have lots of babies in a small volume of water, the hormone can slow their growth down quite considerably. To compensate for this you do big daily water changes to dilute the hormones in the water, and to reduce the nutrients from the heavy feeding regime, and to reduce the microscopic organisms in the water from all the fish and fish waste.

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Guppies don't breed at 6 weeks.

Look for the males gonopodium (anal fin). When it starts to change shape move the young males out. You should also see more colour in their tails and bigger tails around the same time their gonopodium starts to form.

 

[Vengified]

Wow! You learn something new every day! That's interesting about the growth inhibiting hormone. I had no idea about that! I guess it would make sense then, that the first drop of fry, which was a dozen or so, seemed to be farther along at a week old, than this batch of 100, more babies, more growth inhibitor.

Thank you again for your VAST fish knowledge! I'm glad they dont breed so early, it seemed kind of strange that most information said 3 months, but a couple other sites said 6 weeks. I cant see any change in the anal fin at 5 weeks, just some of what appear to be gravid spots. I'll keep my eye on them!

 

[Vengified]

OMG THEY KEEP MAKING BABIES! I CANT KEEP UP! IM DROWNING IN GUPPY FRY!

The night after my last post, I found some more new ones, much smaller than the few I had in the main tank. Now today, MORE AGAIN! The first set of new ones this week seem to be going half black tuxedo, like one of two females, most likely the one that did not give birth to 100 last week. The new ones today, could be anything, but they definitely appear VERY light, compared to most of the other fry, so I'm hoping it was from the blonde female with the green/yellow snakeskin tail!

It is usually the female that has the dominant color gene right? And Male is generally tail formation? I know it's never 100%, but I seem to recall seeing that information somewhere. Just hoping I get a couple decent males, though I wont know for ages what colors or tails they will have, or if they even males. Not til I'm over run with fry anyways!

I seriously think all the activity makes my gourami nervous too! He forages like normal, eats well, good color, all seems fine. But he spends a bit more time up in the hornwort, than he did before the fry came. I just hope they dont stress him to the point of him getting sick?

Hey, @Colin_T if you catch this, do you think my 10g would support the 6 female fry I've identified so far (1/2"), the 3 female adults (for now, not for indefinite births), and the 6 or 7 RCS in there? With intent to segregate females out as the others start to show signs of being female? Leave all the males in one tank, adult and fry guppies, and the one gourami, and 3 otto and 2 ghost shrimp and 2 snails?

I know I'm omw to overstocked quickly, and have found one person to take several dozen fry, an old neighbor with a 255g, 150g, and four 100g tanks, and they dont care male or female. But the LFS wants them at an inch and a half, and the other people I have asked, wanna know male or female.

 

[Colin_T]

yes your 10 gallon will be fine with 6 females.

if you over crowd the tank just do more water changes and bigger water changes to compensate for the food and waste in them. I had 2ft long tanks that held a bit less than 10 gallons and I would rear up 50-100 rainbowfish in them and get the fish to 2-3 inches before selling them. I did big daily water changes and gravel cleans and fed heaps and they were fine.

If you need more space, go and buy a couple of 200 litre (50gallon) plastic storage container with lid and set them up. You can put males in one and females in the other. Have a filter, heater and some floating plants and water change away.

 

[Vengified]

Oh yeah! I remember reading about people being over run with fry before, and being told to just go get storage totes and turning them into aquariums. I remember thinking "It wont happen to me, I dont have many females, and they would just give birth to the typical 20-40 fry, not some obnoxious 100+ fry" but boy was I WRONG! I kept seeing more fry, and kinda lost my head last night, lol. I think it literally gave me a stress headache, cuz I was in physical pain.

On the good side, I have moved the females into the 10 gallon, which I believe they appreciate anyways, as they were getting overly harassed now, since the M:F ratio is now 3:3, plus the 10g is much less water movement, and not as bright. I may take a trip to the little LFS, and see if they want to take any of the females off my hands, before I'm severely over run, and start losing my mind!

Now I just have to start grabbing babies, and seeing if I can identify sex, and separate them out. I bought a very small Tupperware, some "Crystal" model or something, so it's super clear like a specimen container, and have magnifying glasses of all shapes and sizes. I want to keep a few boys, if they turn out nice at all, so I'm gonna try and hold onto some of them to see how they color up, and if their tails come out nice. I am hoping based on the bit of color now, that some might be swordtail or lyretail, but I dont know I'd that's even possible, or if its a dominant gene and none of my parents have it. It's like opening xmas presents, gonna be a surprise!

Thanks for the storage container advice @Colin_T I needed that reminder! I'll go grab one today, and give it a mild bleach bath, rinse it a hundred times, and run treated water in it a couple times, and get it set up. Not sure where I can put it, but I'll figure out something. Maybe I'll hide it under the kitchen table that we rarely use to eat at lol.

 

[Colin_T]

make sure you keep a tight lid on it so the kid doesn't play in it