White band around Neon appeared overnight

1L19

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Tank size: 55 gallon
tank age: 1 month. 10 days since adding fish in 3 batches
pH: 7.4
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0 - 0.25
nitrate: 5
gH: 89
tank temp: 74

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Fish is behaving normally. Has white band all the way around the middle. Can't tell if it's a color change (turning white) or if it's something that's "grown" around the outside.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: Performed a 70%, 50% and 2x 25% changes in the last 10 days.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Adding Seachem prime daily, added seachem clarity yesterday

Tank inhabitants: 20 neon tetras, 10 cardinal tetras, 8 julii corys

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): all are new

Exposure to chemicals: Only as listed above other than bacteria in a bottle to cycle

 
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outofwater

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I had a similar issue when I got my neons in my tank, although it showed just one day after arrival. Isolate that fish asap, do a big water change on your tank, I'd treat that individual fish with melafix and hope he survives. Whatever the hell it is it took half my neons in a couple of days, the rest survived (and thrive to this day) and it never spread to my other fish, thank God.
 
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1L19

1L19

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I had a similar issue when I got my neons in my tank, although it showed just one day after arrival. Isolate that fish asap, do a big water change on your tank, I'd treat that individual fish with melafix and hope he survives. Whatever the hell it is it took half my neons in a couple of days, the rest survived (and thrive to this day) and it never spread to my other fish, thank God.

I've lost five since I got the fish (including the one above) and I can see another in trouble. He (the one above) didn't look the same once he died this morning. I yanked him out as soon as I took the video. Just got done with an 80pct water change and I'll keep watching. I swore to myself I'm not rage quitting this time so if I have to get 30 new fish so be it. Obviously I'd rather not do that.

Thanks man very much.

In tank
intank.jpg


Out of tank
outtank1.jpg



outtank2.jpg
 
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outofwater

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Fwiw, if you got these from a local shop (as opposed to online) I'd go back and look at the tanks. At the time, the fish here (east coast) were arriving very stressed due to brutal cold snaps, and when I went back I saw a lot of stressed fish there, some already literally "circling the drain" at the bottom of tanks, others dead. No external symptoms as this "whiteout", but upon closer observation it was noticeable that they just weren't ok. Also fwiw, I'd call them up on any "warranty" they might offer for livestock, it IS frustrating to get in the hobby with a solidly established tank (as you seem to have) and have a die-off. Last fwiw, melafix seems to be a contentious tool with some, but at this point I'd treat the whole tank with it just to be sure. The water changes and close monitoring should continue for a whole week, even if you don't see any other fish showing any signs of illness. Good luck!
 
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1L19

1L19

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Fwiw, if you got these from a local shop (as opposed to online) I'd go back and look at the tanks. At the time, the fish here (east coast) were arriving very stressed due to brutal cold snaps, and when I went back I saw a lot of stressed fish there, some already literally "circling the drain" at the bottom of tanks, others dead. No external symptoms as this "whiteout", but upon closer observation it was noticeable that they just weren't ok. Also fwiw, I'd call them up on any "warranty" they might offer for livestock, it IS frustrating to get in the hobby with a solidly established tank (as you seem to have) and have a die-off. Last fwiw, melafix seems to be a contentious tool with some, but at this point I'd treat the whole tank with it just to be sure. The water changes and close monitoring should continue for a whole week, even if you don't see any other fish showing any signs of illness. Good luck!

Thanks man I just ordered some melafix and I'll have it tomorrow. Fish looked good in the local ship and I watched the guy net them, not that I'm an expert. Just had the 6th die, the one above is the only one that had the white ring around his middle, but I'm just going to be patient. Change the water very day, test and watch closely. Thank you again for the encouragement.
 

Sgooosh

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melafix doesn;t work most the time but it does not hurt to try.
aquarium salt is a better option. i use API aquarium salt

good luck!

the disease seems to be columnaris which is bacteria so those two are valid options
*it's cool to see another nor-cal person here!!
 
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1L19

1L19

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melafix doesn;t work most the time but it does not hurt to try.
aquarium salt is a better option. i use API aquarium salt

good luck!

the disease seems to be columnaris which is bacteria so those two are valid options
*it's cool to see another nor-cal person here!!

I checked on The Spruce regarding columnaris and here is what they said:

External infections should be treated with antibiotics, chemicals in the water, or both.1
Copper sulfate, Acriflavine, Furan, and Terramycin may all be used in the water to treat columnaris. Terramycin has proven to be quite effective both as a bath, and when used to treat foods for internal infections. Salt may be added to the water (1 to 3 teaspoons per gallon of water) to reduce osmotic stress on fish from the damage to the fish's epithelium caused by the bacteria. Livebearers, in particular, will benefit from the addition of salt; however, use caution when treating catfish, as many are highly sensitive to salt. When in doubt, err on the side of caution when using salt.

I have Julii's in the tank so I'm guessing no salt. Should I be trying one of those other meds? Thank you very much for the information.
 

outofwater

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I checked on The Spruce regarding columnaris and here is what they said:



I have Julii's in the tank so I'm guessing no salt. Should I be trying one of those other meds? Thank you very much for the information.
They're more sensitive to it so you'd use a lower dose, you also have to take into account live plants if you have them, most plants also might be sensitive to it, even in lower doses. Ideally you'd treat the fish with salt in a bare hospital tank, barring that either control the dose carefully or just go with the massive water changes, 50% daily for the week, and use melafix as an extra tool. Changing the water is what will eliminate the bacteria, or rather bring it down to manageable levels as some believe it is present in all tanks no matter what, and the melafix is just to boost your fish ability to repel it. I've read wonders about salt, haven't used it myself but won't knock it. I've learned from reading here that whenever possible, it's best to leave actual meds (antibiotics) only for when you are 100% sure of what you're dealing with, with isn't that easy with animals who can't vocalize and not always display symptoms until it's too late. Best of luck!
 

Colin_T

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Neon disease. It's caused by a bacteria and will kill everythng in the tank if not treated straight away.

It would have been introduced with the last batch of neon tetras. This is why it's best to buy an entire school of fish at one time and quarantine all new fish for a month. Too little too late I know, but for future reference try to buy all the neons at the same time from the same tank and quarantine all new fish regardless of where you get them from.

-------------------------
You will need anti-biotics or something strong enough to kill bacteria. You will need to treat the tank they are all in.

Most medications that treat this will wipe out the filter bacteria so you will need to monitor ammonia and nitrite levels for the next month and do big water changes if you get any readings above 0ppm.


-------------------------
BEFORE TREATING THE AQUARIUM
Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. The water change and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

*NB* You should also wipe the glass down, do a 75-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate, and clean the filter before re-treating the tank.


-------------------------
Work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating with chemicals or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working. You do not need to remove the carbon if you use salt.
 

DoubleDutch

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Neon disease. It's caused by a bacteria and will kill everythng in the tank if not treated straight away.

It would have been introduced with the last batch of neon tetras. This is why it's best to buy an entire school of fish at one time and quarantine all new fish for a month. Too little too late I know, but for future reference try to buy all the neons at the same time from the same tank and quarantine all new fish regardless of where you get them from.

-------------------------
You will need anti-biotics or something strong enough to kill bacteria. You will need to treat the tank they are all in.

Most medications that treat this will wipe out the filter bacteria so you will need to monitor ammonia and nitrite levels for the next month and do big water changes if you get any readings above 0ppm.


-------------------------
BEFORE TREATING THE AQUARIUM
Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. The water change and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

*NB* You should also wipe the glass down, do a 75-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate, and clean the filter before re-treating the tank.


-------------------------
Work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating with chemicals or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working. You do not need to remove the carbon if you use salt.
Do you mean false NTD Colin (columnaris)?
 
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1L19

1L19

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Neon disease. It's caused by a bacteria and will kill everythng in the tank if not treated straight away.

It would have been introduced with the last batch of neon tetras. This is why it's best to buy an entire school of fish at one time and quarantine all new fish for a month. Too little too late I know, but for future reference try to buy all the neons at the same time from the same tank and quarantine all new fish regardless of where you get them from.

-------------------------
You will need anti-biotics or something strong enough to kill bacteria. You will need to treat the tank they are all in.

Most medications that treat this will wipe out the filter bacteria so you will need to monitor ammonia and nitrite levels for the next month and do big water changes if you get any readings above 0ppm.


-------------------------
BEFORE TREATING THE AQUARIUM
Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. The water change and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

*NB* You should also wipe the glass down, do a 75-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate, and clean the filter before re-treating the tank.


-------------------------
Work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating with chemicals or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working. You do not need to remove the carbon if you use salt.
Thank you for the information but this is demoralizing. This is basically a brand new tank, brand new filter and these fish are the first ones I've put in. I bought 20 neon tetras and then went back and bought the 3 that remained from the same tank. I've lost 8 so far. Bought 10 cardinals from the tank next door and they seem fine so far but it's hard to count them when mixed in with the neons. Bought 8 julii corys with the cardinals and they seem fine as well and very active.

Of the 8 I lost only one had that color issue and when I looked at the neon tetra disease information it shows the white color blotched and running long ways (or around the mouth) vs a band all the way around. The band was much, much less visible once it died. I don't see any "bent spines". I'm not saying it's "not" NTD but that's some information to go on. I've also read that there is no cure for NTD so I'm not clear on how anti-biotics could help.

I test water every day, sometimes twice if I do a water change which I am doing almost every day now. Did an 80% yesterday. I clean the glass every time I change water but there really isn't anything built up yet. Still looks brand new. I'm running a spray bar so the aeration looks good.

I don't know how I could manage ammonia/nitrite with roughly 30 fish in the tank if my bacteria was wiped out. Doesn't take any time at all for the ammonia to rise. I don't have a second tank with a cycled filter just sitting around to use in an emergency. I've been warned and read warnings about using not anti-biotics unless I am sure it's appropriate. Seems like you are saying it is but I'm trying to be cautious.

Maybe I should reconsider rage quitting and taking up needle point or something that doesn't involve things I can kill via ignorance/negligence. Well... off to change the water and pick out some needle point patterns.

Many thanks for taking time out to offer some help.
 

outofwater

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Thank you for the information but this is demoralizing. This is basically a brand new tank, brand new filter and these fish are the first ones I've put in. I bought 20 neon tetras and then went back and bought the 3 that remained from the same tank. I've lost 8 so far. Bought 10 cardinals from the tank next door and they seem fine so far but it's hard to count them when mixed in with the neons. Bought 8 julii corys with the cardinals and they seem fine as well and very active.

Of the 8 I lost only one had that color issue and when I looked at the neon tetra disease information it shows the white color blotched and running long ways (or around the mouth) vs a band all the way around. The band was much, much less visible once it died. I don't see any "bent spines". I'm not saying it's "not" NTD but that's some information to go on. I've also read that there is no cure for NTD so I'm not clear on how anti-biotics could help.

I test water every day, sometimes twice if I do a water change which I am doing almost every day now. Did an 80% yesterday. I clean the glass every time I change water but there really isn't anything built up yet. Still looks brand new. I'm running a spray bar so the aeration looks good.

I don't know how I could manage ammonia/nitrite with roughly 30 fish in the tank if my bacteria was wiped out. Doesn't take any time at all for the ammonia to rise. I don't have a second tank with a cycled filter just sitting around to use in an emergency. I've been warned and read warnings about using not anti-biotics unless I am sure it's appropriate. Seems like you are saying it is but I'm trying to be cautious.

Maybe I should reconsider rage quitting and taking up needle point or something that doesn't involve things I can kill via ignorance/negligence. Well... off to change the water and pick out some needle point patterns.

Many thanks for taking time out to offer some help.
We fly blind half the time, I've learned that so far. No matter how careful you are, some things are not under your control, and some things can't be fully explained. Way after this situation in my tank was dealt with,, I lost an otto suddenly. A week ago a cory passed, both with no indication that there was anything wrong, at all. Water parameters are perfect, no outward signs of anything going on, healthy, eating and swimming along with all the other fish. In top shape at night on last look at tank, dead in the morning. Nothing new added to tank,, no changes in cleaning routines, no changes in food or any other water-affecting vectors. What you have right now is either ntd or columnaris, no surefire way to pinpoint it unless you overcomplicate things and go have the water or the bodies analyzed somewhere to look for bacteria and whatever else this *could* be. Don't despair, treat the tank as best you can. I went with my gut because I couldn't quite make that call (put antibiotics willy nilly) and it worked. Lucky? Maybe, but took action and stuck with it so luck was at least parrtially "forged". And along the way helped the fish to best of my abilities by sticking to cumbersome massive water changes and tank cleanings for a full week even after all of them looked and behaved as healthy as ever.
 

Lynnzer

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It sucks, big time.
Seems like it's down to the LFS and as mentioned I'd go back and bang on the counter about it. There's been enough said on medication etc, and other potential ways to sort this out.
If you don't have a UV light in a filter I'd buy one right away as it'll help prevent the spread of any bacteria loose in the water.
Personally, and I know this may not go down too well with others, I'd go the whole hog and euthanase them or you will possibly/probably end up with the same result along with any other fish in the tank.
Neons aren't expensive and the loss of a batch of them to save others may be considered harsh, but commonsense must play a part. The frustration of trying desperately to get on top of the situation and watching them go one by one is bloody awful.
 
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1L19

1L19

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Ok so I've lost more fish and I'm pretty sure it's columnaris like Sgoosh diagnosed. I've lost about 10 neons and 2 juliis. This first fish I posted definitely looks like the indicator for saddleback disease (columnaris) and the julii that died today had a white mouth. I've really tried to look at the best course to take but I would love some feedback.

It does seem like Nitrofurazone and Kanamyacin (together) is indicated to be the most effective. Nitrofurazone seems to be hard to find and I'm not sure I can get it shipped to California. I have some Seachem Kanaplex (Kanamyacin) in my cart on Amazon and I found one, quite large package, of Nitrofurazone also on Amazon but the shipping time isn't quick and I'm not sure if the shipment will go through.

Most articles say to remove the charcoal packs from my Fluval 307 which I will do. It's also advised to lower the tank temperature but I'm at 74 without a heater so unless I start floating frozen bottled water it's about as low as it's going to get.

So my questions... sorry...
  1. Should I use the Melafix?
  2. Should I use the salt (1tsp per gallon)?
  3. Does NitroFurazone + Kanamyacin still seem to be the best bet?
  4. Can I use these treatments at the same time?
Thank you everyone for caring enough to help me out.
 

Naughts

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Remove the carbon, Don't worry about the heat- it's not very high and the frozen bottles will create other problems.

Don't bother with melafix, it's so weak as a treatment that it's rarely helpful.

Salt is a great treatment but not in this case. If it is columnaris (I don't know, lucky I haven't had to deal with it), then you need high strength medication.

Someone on here said they dealt with columnaris and Furan2 combined with kanaplex worked. That sounds similar to your combo in question 3, the active ingredients could be the same.
 

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