Water changing advice

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

The toddler scenario is a bit of an extreme circumstance. The last time that happened here was a 19 year old knocking a food canister over, and I think there was booze involved...

Yep, it's an extreme example, but it came to mind because it happened to a friend of mine, so I know that accidents like this do happen. Could have easily picked a different serious crisis like a holiday feeder dumping it's entire contents or something toxic getting spilled into the tank. Or my own experience - the time I used cheap root tabs that sent my nitrites sky high for ages, which needed 75% daily changes, using Prime and manually combing the sand to remove every tiny ball, and levels still rose dangerously high between 75% daily changes.
I just used my friends situation because it's simple, can easily happen and I genuinely wonder what @itiwhetu would recommend in a scenario like that, if large water changes are out of the question.

Most of us "water chasers" (I haven't heard that term before!) would do large water changes while manually removing/gravel vaccing up as much of the muck as possible, and it would likely require either the fish to be moved to clean water (effectively a 100% water change) or several back to back huge water changes to handle all that ammonia. Changing 30% then leaving it to the next day would just result in dead fish, so how can they say that we should never be recommending large changes? The emergency section of the forum is busy, and where many new and one-off members post their scenarios like this, and where the advice to do huge water changes is most likely to be given, so if they say that advice is bad and stupid, then I want to hear what they believe we should be saying instead. Ideally, backed with research and evidence.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

One of my friends found a cat in the tank once - sad freak out there. The fish survived it.

I'm scared to ask this, because the mental picture is already upsetting... but did the cat survive too?

 

[kiko]

and again...the OP wasnt given advice to do a 90% because of an emergency...he was given advice as to do 90% REGULAR water changes
no emergency in his case of any kind...

 

[GaryE]

I'm scared to ask this, because the mental picture is already upsetting... but did the cat survive too?

Umm, no.

I had a cat fall through a glass cover and survive for another 12 years after, but my friend's cat was not so fortunate. A large water change was needed.

 

[GaryE]

and again...the OP wasnt given advice to do a 90% because of an emergency...he was given advice as to do 90% REGULAR water changes
no emergency in his case of any kind...

And if so, you disagree with the person giving the advice. That's all - no issue for debate that I can see going forward.

I don't think we've had that guy posting, you know, the usual "I haven't done a water change since 1967 and my fish still listen to the Beatles". I'm not sure any water changing thread is done til that poster shows up.

 

[Back in the fold]

Little kids dumping the whole food can in ? Happens way more than you would ever believe. I had a friend feed my fish once because she thought the fish looked hungry. She used 2/3 of a brand new can of flakes. Yep , a grown adult. I vacuumed up the worst and changed out half the water. I caught it in time. No harm done.

 

[itiwhetu]

These situations require more than just a water change. When I ran my business, I had an emergency response part of that business. What I would do is completely remove the fish and rehome them in my fish room and then strip the tank down and re set it up. This is the same response I use for tank breakages and leaks.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

These situations require more than just a water change. When I ran my business, I had an emergency response part of that business. What I would do is completely remove the fish and rehome them in my fish room and then strip the tank down and re set it up. This is the same response I use for tank breakages and leaks.

You must be a lot better with a net than me...my tanks are scaped so heavily that by the time I caught them all, I'D be dead, let alone the fish.

 

[CarissaT]

If you keep a betta in a small tank you have to do 100% water changes weekly or more because there’s little to no cycle. I did this for years and had healthy bettas who never got stressed out from the water change, because I would always change it with the same tap water at the same temperature. There was more stress from having to catch him with a net than doing the water change. I’m not saying this is the ideal thing to do, just a case in point where 100% water changes have to happen all the time and the fish is fine.

However I had another scenario where every time I would do a water change on an established tank (50%) I would have random fish deaths afterward. After weeks of frustration in determining the problem, I finally figured out that there was copper in my tap water, and somehow after it would sit in my tank for a while, the copper would be gone, it must have been precipitating out of solution is the only thing I could figure. So it wasn’t the water change exactly, but what was in the water I was using to replace it that was causing the stress.

The big question here is, what‘s the tank water chemistry vs. what‘s the tap water chemistry? You’re going to have a whole host of things in the tank water that are not in the tap water (aside from strange examples like above where my tap water had copper and tank did not).

1. Fish waste and byproducts of nitrogen cycle such as nitrate
This stuff is essentially poison or at the very least of no benefit to fish. Reducing this will only help, not stress, fish.

2. Carbonates, trace minerals, calcium, magnesium, iron, etc.
In most cases if you are using the same tap water, there should be little to no difference between how much of this is in your tap water and how much is in the tank, because that’s what you started off with and it doesn’t just disappear somehow in most circumstances. But if you have hardscape in your tank that‘s leaching, like coral or sand with carbonates, that will bring your tank water KH and maybe GH up as it keeps getting absorbed into the water. But usually after an initial period when it’s first added, it will slow down or stop leaching much, and we aren’t talking massive amounts in any case. So if someone is doing weekly water changes anyway, there won’t likely be any big difference. If you leave your tank for two months, and just keep topping up evaporation, that may be another story.

3. Acidic compounds from breakdown of waste etc.
Nitric acid is produced from fish waste, tannic acid can leach from driftwood. This will affect the pH of the tank water, but again, only very slightly IF you are doing regular water changes. If you let waste build up for a long time without a water change, like a couple months or more, you may see a change in the pH from your tap water.

No doubt there are many other things in tank water, but these are the main ones that I know of that could affect your fish. So if someone hasn’t been doing proper water changes for quite some time, and there‘s no immediate danger (e.g. high ammonia or other toxic qualities that pose an immediate threat), it may make sense to start with smaller water changes on a regular basis say 25%, or first test pH, KH and GH of the tank vs. tap to see if there is any major difference before going ahead with a huge water change.

 

[itiwhetu]

You must be a lot better with a net than me...my tanks are scaped so heavily that by the time I caught them all, I'D be dead, let alone the fish.

When catching fish. There are two rules
1 Think like a fish
2 Don't chase them (The more you chase fish the faster they swim)

 

[Deleted member 149562]

@AdoraBelle Dearheart I think this has gone long enough and people keep making up the stuff they want be it chlorine when I've stated multiple times about tap filters
and incremental water changes when issues arise...
my issue was the 90% regular water changes given as advice and the thread in question was closed and a mod sent me a pm saying I called someone stupid when I said the advice was bad and stupid
and then @wasmewasntit going about some advice about a fry tank which I did read that thread and the OP said in his very first post this was advice given to him previously before that person even posted the stuff about his fry tank
people don't bother reading things properly and then become witch hunters...
now if people want to water chase...their choice...
would I trust a 90% water change? hell no
would I recommend anything above 30% on a regular basis? nop
would I trust water changes based on 3rd party products? (water chasing 50% and higher)....no again
are bigger water changes necessary when there's issues? yes
how much would I recommend? 30-50% done over incremental changes or just whatever the person does but more often
the whole point of them when issues arise is to keep diluting stuff in the water
is there a difference from doing a 30% every day if stuff happens VS doing 2 water changes of 50%? yes
fish won't run into the risk of getting shocked by them bigger water changes being they're not used to it
I'd still be exchanging lots of water just the same and without the risk and without the need of 3rd party products to fix my water
hope this answered some of the questions about my ways

@kiko

No-one has advised, told or recommended a 90% water change as a normal or routine practice. NO-ONE.

It has ONLY been advised in an emergency situation such as an illness outbreak, contamination or water chemistry issue.

The individual that has spoken of 90% is someone with a fry aquarium where 90% is normal practice.

The only person to misconstrue the 90% is you. Nobody else. Just you.

You have latched onto it like the proverbial limpet and regardless of the context or reason for a 90% change, you have been determined to argue and call people out over it.

And once again you totally ignore that many people do not have chlorine but do have chloramine which is more dangerous for fish and carbon filtration does NOT erradicate chloramine, leaving buckets of water does NOT erradicate chloramine

So the only one here giving bad advice and bad suggestions and being critical of a non-existant issue with 90% water changes used for emergencies is YOU.

You are just trying your hardest to pot stir knowing full well that you are barking up the wrong tree but enjoying causing arguments anyway.

Please quit trying to make something out of nothing. You do things your way with your perfect Toronto water and everyone else will do things how they see fit according to the situation that confronts them and what they have to deal with. Not everyone has the perfect Toronto water or the financials to install carbonising filtration to our supplies or space for buckets of water hanging around for days.

And you bet if an emergency happens in our aquariums we will still use larger water changes. And btw I have done 90% in an emergency in the past and never lost a fish...so if you lost fish then you might have done something wrong such as not matched up temperatures etc like the rest of us know and do.

Not one of us have been rude towards you or been critical of your methods. Kindly respect how we do things even if it does fly in the face of what you feel is right cos not every situation, aquarium, person, water chemistry, method or country is the same as you in Toronto.

 

[itiwhetu]

Aside from everything else, there are some proven falsehoods in this post. The only circumstances when fish will actually be (possibly) harmed by water changes is when the water changes are not being done sufficiently to deal with the biological system. The more water that is changed and the more often, the more stable the system and the healthier the fish. I will not argue this with anyone because the scientific evidence is clear, and one can refute it but not argue it. My article explains all this.

Many discus breeders (pro) do 90-95% water changes two and three times each day. The result is healthier fry that grow faster. Provided the parameters between tank water and source water are basically the same, there is absolutely no detriment from water changes.

Regular Partial Water Changes

Byron Hosking November, 2010 (rev April 2021) Nothing is more important when it comes to aquarium maintenance than regular partial water changes. The adage “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure” certainly applies here. One frequently reads of products that will reduce the need for...

www.fishforums.net

My Discus are doing just fine with 25% water changes.

 

[Colin_T]

My Discus are doing just fine with 25% water changes.

yeah but your nitrates were going up and caused one of your discus to do rolly pollies

 

[itiwhetu]

yeah but your nitrates were going up and caused one of your discus to do rolly pollies

They did Rolly pollies when I was a naughty boy, now they are all lovey Dovey again,

 

[GaryE]

Here's my take.

1) A new aquarist should only do enormous water changes if something has gone wrong. Often big water changes, cleaning of ornaments etc can be the cause of problems.

2) As you gain experience, you probably (hopefully) gain a better understanding of water. The picture widens, and you get how everything interconnects and how complex it really is. You begin to question certainties from 'gurus".

3) If you are a quick learner or a slow one, it doesn't matter. You get to the point where water changing becomes regular maintenance that can be tweaked. If you never get there, you probably sell off your tank and say the hobby sucks.

4) You doctor water, and manipulate the parameters for defined ends. Maybe you add tannins, acidify, harden, increase alkalinity - whatever. You've begun to look hard at the natural history of the creatures in your tank (s). You think maybe you're an expert, and discover you don't know much.

5) At that point, you can do enormous changes safely and regularly, and with a plan in mind.

6) You answer a question from a new aquarist at point 1, and maybe forget the process you've gone through. That's my specialty!