Is Dan Blowing Smoke?

[gwand]

The difference between Wet Spot and Dan is that Dan states hard water is safe for all fish and implies that hard water fish can tolerate soft water. Wet Spot makes no such claims. Second, Dan is selling grab bag fish. Just plain wrong. Maybe immoral.

 

[jaylach]

You've done a good job of trying to balance the sellers questionable tactics with his good points.

Not really trying to do that. I just look at results and almost all reviews are in Dan's favor. Is he always right? Of course not but he seems to almost always be more right than wrong.

 

[anewbie]

The difference between Wet Spot and Dan is that Dan states hard water is safe for all fish and implies that hard water fish can tolerate soft water. Wet Spot makes no such claims. Second, Dan is selling grab bag fish. Just plain wrong. Maybe immoral.

I've talked to wetspot a few times about their water (mostly to know how much it will differ from mine); i believe their native water is soft but they add a bit of kh to raise the ph to make it compatible with most buyers (bacteria shock); however they do have hard water (i think) for hardwater fish but i would have to double check on that so don't take it as fact as i mostly (100%?) buy softwater fish. I'm just soft about things...

In someone defense it is cheaper to make softwater hard than hardwater soft but as i noted for a *large* business you can buy a distiller that can produce several 1000 gallons a day of soft water - they aren't cheap but they are very efficient so in the end it is cheaper than an ro system IF you need that much water.

 

[GaryE]

From what I can see from the outside, you have 3 choices in the USA for rare and not necessarily popular fish for the curious aquarist - The Wet Spot, Reheboth and Dan's. To sell such fish, a company has to be willing to take risks, make extra efforts and deal with possible slow sales. Rare fish sellers are a rare type of human. They have to really like what they sell to go into that business. The money guys sell glofish.

If there are others dealing in wild caught, uncommon fish, not only selling but breeding them and avoiding the fishfarms and the disease issues, let us know.

So, buyers from Dan's have generally been pleased. Before the world got so ugly, I bought some nice lampeyes from him while I was in the US, and they were good. He's made a post people disagree with, for legitimate reasons. All that's done is make people more aware of his water issues. Awareness lets you deal with it, as much or as little as you can.

What to do? Here's my recipe when I get a fish with questionable longterm prospects. I call upon my skills as an aquarist and I breed the thing. If the fish I buy might have been injured by shipping, inappropriate water, parasites, etc, the fry won't have faced that. Raise some and move forward.

10 days ago, I was given 3 species of Cichlids by an ichthyologist who had collected them. They are rare in the hobby - I probably have the only individuals on this continent. One needs to be grown out, as they are young. The other two are already in breeding tanks. You don't mess around when you have rare fish. The seller works to make them available, and I'd argue you have to do the same thing, if only to keep them available to yourself.

If it's what really interests you, buy it and breed it. Support rare fish sellers. If you keep fish as ornaments, buyer beware, as a lot can go wrong, but if you aren't collecting objects, the moment that fish species is out of the bag, get your motors running and get the project started.

 

[anewbie]

From what I can see from the outside, you have 3 choices in the USA for rare and not necessarily popular fish for the curious aquarist - The Wet Spot, Reheboth and Dan's. To sell such fish, a company has to be willing to take risks, make extra efforts and deal with possible slow sales. Rare fish sellers are a rare type of human. They have to really like what they sell to go into that business. The money guys sell glofish.

There are several other decent stores including impericaltropical and tristanstropicalfish. However most of the 'large' wc cichild dealers like tangleup have given up or aged out.

 

[Magnum Man]

I've been following along, after this well beaten horse...

Dan's is one of 3-4 of sellers I buy from, as I don't have a good local, so everything I buy, comes from a shipper... I buy the most from Dans... and while I'm using RO water in my tanks, because my water is as hard as Dans, and I don't want to long term subject my fish to alkaline water... I have a nearly 100% survival rate, on fish from Dans, and pretty much all the sellers I buy from repeatedly, at least for the 1st couple weeks... to receive fish from anyone, I typically pull a cup of water from my tank, then cut the bag open, and pour as much of my tank water into the bag, as I can... my ideal, is a 50% mix... but in the tiny individual bags, that Dans packs in, there may only be room for 10% of my tank water to mix in... I usually give that about 1 minute, then pour the bag through a tank dedicated net, over my sink drain, and add the fish directly... I'm actually surprised that I don't lose more going from hard to soft, with that procedure...

now I do have a period, that I lose fish over the next several weeks, that can be as high as 1/3 on harder to keep soft water fish, and I don't think it's my tanks... It could actually be along the lines of suggestion of some members, and that death rate may have to do with the time held in waters not of the fishes preference, prior to arriving here???

this is a quote from Dans site...
"Our pH measures around 8.3 with a KH and GH a bit over 300ppm. That being said, we want to caution folks with different water parameters from thinking that they need to change their water for our fish. We have many customers in the Pacific Northwest, Upstate New York, and other areas that have very soft water. Our fish do just fine in their water without any parameter matching. What is most important is that the water our fish are put in upon arrival have steady parameters, not that your water parameters match ours."

I think it's important to get the fish into native water parameters as quickly as possible, and that is on us, as long term keepers... it would be nice if the sellers would hold fish in waters closer to what each individual fish long term require, but that would greatly complicate that industry... I don't mess with ph adjusters, I use straight RO, or blend in a small amount of my well water, during water changes, but my goal is not to match the ph, but I worry more about the hardness... even with using RO water, I have difficulty getting below the high to middle 6's in ph... I think matching the hardness as best you can is needed for long term survival, getting ph as close as you can specifically for breeding purposes...

 

[anewbie]

I've been following along, after this well beaten horse...

Dan's is one of 3-4 of sellers I buy from, as I don't have a good local, so everything I buy, comes from a shipper... I buy the most from Dans... and while I'm using RO water in my tanks, because my water is as hard as Dans, and I don't want to long term subject my fish to alkaline water... I have a nearly 100% survival rate, on fish from Dans, and pretty much all the sellers I buy from repeatedly, at least for the 1st couple weeks... to receive fish from anyone, I typically pull a cup of water from my tank, then cut the bag open, and pour as much of my tank water into the bag, as I can... my ideal, is a 50% mix... but in the tiny individual bags, that Dans packs in, there may only be room for 10% of my tank water to mix in... I usually give that about 1 minute, then pour the bag through a tank dedicated net, and add the fish directly... I'm actually surprised that I don't lose more going from hard to soft, with that procedure...

I never bother with drip acclimination or similar - i allow the bag unopen to sit in the tank for 20 or 30 minutes to allow temperature to stabilize; open the bag pour it into a net that is over a pail and release the fishes. For cat fishes (esp otto) i do not use a net but either my hand or specimen container as the fish will get stuck in a net.

now I do have a period, that I lose fish over the next several weeks, that can be as high as 1/3 on harder to keep soft water fish, and I don't think it's my tanks... It could actually be along the lines of suggestion of some members, and that death rate may have to do with the time held in waters not of the fishes preference, prior to arriving here???

If my death rate was more than 10% after a year i would be very concern. While I've had some problems with specific species and have lost a few fishes i would guess after the first year my death rate is less than 3% and ignoring stuff like tetra and similar where a large number are purchased probably less than 1% though i do not keep an accurate count.

this is a quote from Dans site...
"Our pH measures around 8.3 with a KH and GH a bit over 300ppm. That being said, we want to caution folks with different water parameters from thinking that they need to change their water for our fish. We have many customers in the Pacific Northwest, Upstate New York, and other areas that have very soft water. Our fish do just fine in their water without any parameter matching. What is most important is that the water our fish are put in upon arrival have steady parameters, not that your water parameters match ours."

Either we trust that Dan is knows what he is talking about or we accept that he is blowing smoke we can't have it both way.