Is Dan Blowing Smoke?

[Back in the fold]

Ah, but Ed wrote a tiny, self published book aimed squarely at beginners. He generalized a lot. Ed and later his wife Ruth were great killie breeders who intentionally produced fish for new killiekeepers, to grow the hobby. That was their project, and it always seemed to me that in Ed's book, he wrote instructions for the fish he sold (at intentionally low prices). They were the easiest to keep and breed killies out there, as that suited his project.
The fish in my avatar here is an Ed and Ruth special.
Those old school keepers figured once you got started, you'd have the brains to figure out what species worked in your water and what ones didn't. I'd say from my experience that more killies would prove your quote wrong than right.
Then again, when Ed died, many of the species we see now weren't even in the hobby yet.

We need more people like Ed and Ruth Warner in the aquarium hobby, but Ed's book was written for a purpose in a time, and a lot has been learned by hard work since then.

That , what you wrote , is eye opening . It never occurred to me to think of things that way . I think I am very overly simplistic and tend to think of the written word by experts as gospel . Thank you for giving me a new line of thought .

 

[gwand]

That , what you wrote , is eye opening . It never occurred to me to think of things that way . I think I am very overly simplistic and tend to think of the written word by experts as gospel . Thank you for giving me a new line of thought .

We know you were just smokin banana peels again

 

[MaloK]

From my personal experience with neons in harder water... They looked ok and all...

But it was a complete failure, they never lived long, 1 to 2 years and even never tried to breed...

It was not because the fish where not acclimated they where years acclimated... But simply wrong water for them...

Lesson learned. Never did such things after... Harder water is not that much a problem in transit... But in the long run... It is...

 

[gwand]

As we discussed previously, in several other threads, the minerals in hard water will cause injury to the kidneys of soft water fish. Even a quick dunk of several weeks in hard water like Dan does with his fish can end up compromising kidney function. It will not kill the fish immediately, but the fish leaves Dan and now is at a disadvantage because its kidneys are not working at the hundred percent level. Unless you were to measure the fishes kidney function, you couldn’t tell that they carry an injury for life.

 

[gwand]

This excerpt from Gemini AI is quite accurate although the pH section may be controversial.

The Role of Water Hardness and Osmoregulation

Fish have a sophisticated system called osmoregulation to maintain a stable internal balance of salts and water, which is different from their external environment. In freshwater fish, the body's internal fluid is saltier than the surrounding water. This causes a constant influx of water into their bodies and a continuous loss of essential salts to the environment through their gills. To counteract this, freshwater fish actively excrete large amounts of dilute urine and use specialized cells in their gills (called chloride cells) to actively absorb salts from the water.

How Soft Water Disrupts this Process

Soft water is low in dissolved minerals, particularly calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+), which are the key components of water hardness. For fish adapted to hard water, these minerals are crucial for their osmoregulation. The presence of calcium in the water helps stabilize the "tight junctions" in their gill membranes, making them less permeable to water and reducing the passive loss of salts from their bodies.

When a hard water fish is placed in soft water, the following occurs:

• Increased Water Influx: Without the protective effect of calcium, the gill membranes become more permeable. The greater difference in salt concentration between the fish's body and the soft water leads to a more rapid and significant influx of water into the fish's body.
• Mineral Deficiency: The fish is unable to absorb sufficient calcium and other minerals from the soft water to replace what is lost. This can lead to a range of health issues, including problems with bone and scale formation, muscle spasms, and heart function.
• Osmotic Stress: The fish's osmoregulatory system is overtaxed, as it must work harder to excrete the excess water and retain what little salt it has. This increased energetic expenditure can cause severe stress, weaken the fish's immune system, and make it more susceptible to disease.

How Hard Water Injures Soft Water Fish

When a soft water fish, like a neon tetra from the Amazon, is placed in hard water, the high concentration of dissolved minerals (primarily calcium and magnesium) in the water creates several problems:

• Gill Damage: The high mineral content of hard water can irritate and damage the delicate gill membranes of soft water fish. The gills can become inflamed and less efficient at gas exchange (taking in oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide), leading to respiratory distress.
• Osmotic Stress: The influx of minerals into the fish's body creates osmotic stress. While their bodies are trying to conserve salts, the high external concentration of minerals overwhelms their systems. Their kidneys and gills have to work harder to excrete the excess minerals, putting a strain on their internal organs and overall health. This can lead to a reduced lifespan and increased susceptibility to disease.
• Kidney and Organ Blockages: The excess minerals can be absorbed by the fish's body, and in some cases, these minerals can accumulate and cause blockages in the kidneys and other vital organs. This can lead to kidney failure and other severe health problems.
• Breeding Difficulties: For many soft water species, the mineral composition of hard water can interfere with the breeding process. The high calcium content can cause the eggs to have a harder shell, making it difficult for the fry to hatch. This is a common reason why some soft water fish will not breed in hard water, even if they appear to be otherwise healthy.
• pH Shock: Hard water often has a higher pH and a higher buffering capacity (KH). While this can be a good thing for pH stability, if a soft water fish is moved suddenly from an acidic, soft water environment to an alkaline, hard water environment, it can experience a severe and often fatal pH shock. The sudden change can damage its gills, skin, and internal organs.

 

[jaylach]

Sort of funny about the water here in northern Wyoming. Little Goose Creek behind my apartment where Dan gets his water runs a PH of ~8 yet my tap water runs ~6.2-~6.7 depending on the time of the year.

I figure the difference is due to the city's water treatment plant buffering the water that comes from Big Goose Creek which is attached to the creek where Dan pulls water. Since both creeks are attached I figure it has to be the city water treatment softening the intake water to protect pipes.

Bottom line is I'm happy that my tap water is soft.

 

[MaloK]

But......

The question remains... How long is too long ? Is an healthy fish a couple weeks in wrong water crippled for life ?

Quantifying it would be impossible.

Gemini is the really best regarding sciences, chemistry,... Not that much for programming, but it's scientific references are really good and if you are precise will be very relevant.

I crossed checked some of the "pros" and let me say that some guys here are really knowing what they talk about.

And all Gemini basic aquaria "skills" are giving very good advice. I quiz it a lot on my know knowledge and I'm really impressed.

Another thing you can do with AI... Is ask for it's references... That nail it, squared.

 

[anewbie]

Sort of funny about the water here in northern Wyoming. Little Goose Creek behind my apartment where Dan gets his water runs a PH of ~8 yet my tap water runs ~6.2-~6.7 depending on the time of the year.

I figure the difference is due to the city's water treatment plant buffering the water that comes from Big Goose Creek which is attached to the creek where Dan pulls water. Since both creeks are attached I figure it has to be the city water treatment softening the intake water to protect pipes.

Bottom line is I'm happy that my tap water is soft.

PH is not a good indicator of water hardness or even kh as there are many artificial factor to ph. My favorite example is if i pump co2 into water with kh 20 gh 20 and the ph is 6 does that now mean it is soft water ?

Rather than ph how about obtaining actual kh and gh values.

 

[GaryE]

We loop around the issue because what we want to read and what research puts out there for us to read are often different. No one WANTS minerals in the water to be really important. But they are. Our small fish are adapted to specific environments, with very few exceptions.

In the right water, they can be very long lived. With the wrong mineral levels for their needs, they live shorter lives, and may be ill for a chunk of those lives. It's simple, really. Too simple because it's really inconvenient for us (and them).

We like to deny that reality. Older aquarists were unaware of it, and fish listed as really hard to keep or breed in older books may be easy in the right water. How quickly the wrong water causes harm, and how quickly (if ever) the fish heal from it is a good question.

It's complex, too. At the moment, I have some Nothobranchius palmqvisti annual killifish hatching, in very good numbers. They hatch when it rains in their habitat, and rain has no minerals. But the water they're in picks up minerals through the wet season, and can be hard by the time the waters dry up and the annuals die. Changes in hardness would seem to be part of the cycle of life for them. It's interesting, but all it proves is what's true for those fish. It says nothing about cardinals, or Mbuna, or angelfish.

If we're ever kept in space alien zoos as earth mammals, I hope they pay more attention to the differences between dolphins and humans than we do to the differences between mbuna and kribs.