Water changing advice

[Back in the fold]

For municipalities that use chlorine only, this is correct.

And that's my municipality . Chlorine only. Someday little backwater Billings Montana will be dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth century and given its dose of chloramine but until then I will enjoy our chloramine free bliss.

 

[Slaphppy7]

And that's my municipality . Chlorine only. Someday little backwater Billings Montana will be dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth century and given its dose of chloramine but until then I will enjoy our chloramine free bliss.

Yep, easy to deal with that, "backwater" or not, lol....who says newer is always better, anyway

 

[kiko]

It was probably aimed at me. I suggest doing a 75-90% water change and gravel cleaning the substrate before treating for white spot so you remove as many of the parasites from the tank as possible.

I also say make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank and not many people do.

And I've been doing this for over 20 years too, so it's not just a thing I say. I make suggestions based on experience and if the tank needs a really big water change for whatever reason, I will suggest a really big water change.

now you understand my issue with it?
recommending this to people specially newcomers can't be a good thing..
I'd always recommend up to 50% up to 4 times a week or every other day in case of diseases
and use filters just like I do for chlorine
but when someone comes back to us saying someone told him to do weekly 90% water changes and that his fish are dying
I find that things should be explained a bit better concerning fish shock
water chasing specially 90% water changes aren't good for all fish and some fish can't handle that, much less every single week
big volumes of water have always been used to get rid of stuff I myself will go up to 50%
but recommending 90% weekly as a regular water change? it's insane to me...

 

[Byron]

now you understand my issue with it?
recommending this to people specially newcomers can't be a good thing..
I'd always recommend up to 50% up to 4 times a week or every other day in case of diseases
and use filters just like I do for chlorine
but when someone comes back to us saying someone told him to do weekly 90% water changes and that his fish are dying
I find that things should be explained a bit better concerning fish shock
water chasing specially 90% water changes aren't good for all fish and some fish can't handle that much less every single week
big volumes of water have always been used to get rid of stuff I myself will go up to 50%
but recommending 90% weekly as a regular water change? it's insane to me...

There needs to be more detail to support some of these otherwise false statements because you are mixing "regular" with "emergency." I don't think anyone on this forum recommends 90% carte blanche, but in some situations it may be necessary to deal with a specific issue in order to get things back to normal. There are specific times when such a change may be mandated and other times when not. There are conditions that most of us on TFF always mention as provisos. Example, if parameters are basically the same between tank water and tap water, there is absolutely no harm in doing more substantial water changes as a regular weekly maintenance, and there are no fish species we keep that will be detrimentally affected. And always provided conditioner is used appropriately (if chlorine/chloramine are present). If an aquarium has been neglected and ammonia increases and pH drops, a large water change with water having a basic pH may well harm or kill the fish.

If the person is doing water changes and fish are dying, you need to examine all factors. What are the water parameters, water conditions in the tank, fish species, numbers, tank size, other species...this is a very different situation. Treating a disease of other problem is not the same as regular maintenance.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

now you understand my issue with it?
recommending this to people specially newcomers can't be a good thing..
I'd always recommend up to 50% up to 4 times a week or every other day in case of diseases
and use filters just like I do for chlorine
but when someone comes back to us saying someone told him to do weekly 90% water changes and that his fish are dying
I find that things should be explained a bit better concerning fish shock
water chasing specially 90% water changes aren't good for all fish and some fish can't handle that, much less every single week
big volumes of water have always been used to get rid of stuff I myself will go up to 50%
but recommending 90% weekly as a regular water change? it's insane to me...

But he hasn't even recommended 90% weekly. He said in the very post you're quoting that he recommends a 75-90% water change before beginning treating a health problem. Not weekly, not routinely, before, during and after treatment of an issue. I've also seen him recommend up to 90% if the tank is contaminated with something, or ammonia/nitrites are sky high and it's an emergency that requires a huge water change to reduce those levels, or sit and watch the fish die.

Can you link the thread you're talking about in the OP please? Where someone said they were told to do 90% weekly? It would be easier to discuss this if everyone knows the what advice actually was given, or if the person misinterpreted something perhaps.

But in general terms, in the time I've been reading here, have only seen someone suggest doing that large a change as regular maintenance maybe a couple of times, and they were immediately told that it didn't need to be that large (and wouldn't leave the fish much swimming room! So yes, would be stressful for the fish there), that most here do between 50-75% per week. Larger only in an emergency. But I haven't seen anyone tell off someone who says they do 35-40% weekly, if it works out okay in their tank. One member who isn't around much at the moment always did 75% weekly, and has the most stunning, healthy tanks and fish. Even had his otos breed in his tanks. Fish certainly weren't dying, and it's hard to argue with his methods when the results were so stunning and healthy looking.

The fact that most every fish breeder does huge daily changes and says that it encourages faster, better growth and healthier stock hits home with me too...
But the main thing for me is that a glass box of unchanged water is about as far from wild conditions as you can get. most fish we keep live in rivers and lakes, in huge quantities of water that's constantly changing and being replenished. So arguing that clean fresh water (provided the source water is matching in water conditions/temp/pH etc and declorinated of course) stresses fish out seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

It's already been said, but it bears repeating: I don't see anyone advising newbies to do weekly, 90% water changes. I think the OP might be arguing vehemently against a non-existent practice. I did see someone advising a 90% water change in preparation for treating a severe parasite problem. This is a very special and very specific circumstance, not routine fish care. (If you're treating for parasites on a weekly basis, you have bigger problems than water changes)

So, I'll go ahead and say it:
HEY, BEGINNERS! DOING 90% WEEKLY WATER CHANGES AS PART OF YOUR REGULAR MAINTANENCE REGIMEN MIGHT CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS THAN IT SOLVES, AND PROBABLY ISN'T SUCH A NIFTY IDEA.

Better?

 

[kiko]

The op of that thread never said who it was neither does it matter.
This isn't a hunt down.
I just think it shouldn't happen unless for a specific reason like diseases and so on...
It usually creates more problems than help.
I'd be scared myself of doing a 90% much less telling someone else to do it.
I'm sure some people do insane volumes like 75%
But then again their water specs must be very close to their tap.
Also I'm not a prime promoter and I'm old school...
Don't stress out the fish and they'll always be fine.
So I use water filters instead of prime and my water changes are around 10-15%
And I use root tabs instead of liquid ferts which can also create issues when people add too much because they see a yellow plant and think more is better.
You guys have to remember that ALL of us have killed fish.
And that people will do stupid things when they're worried about something.
Especially someone who's new to the hobby

I really think people should just explain things a little better to newcomers or provide sources of information when possible if it can be damaging to their tank.
Because if it was a personal friend I'm sure any of you would go beyond and above to make sure your friend did it right instead of killing his/her fish

 

[itiwhetu]

We had a member on here who was doing 90% water changes and thought it was cool, I challenged that member multiple times and almost got banned for doing it. That member is no longer part of this forum

 

[Deleted member 149562]

The op of that thread never said who it was neither does it matter.
This isn't a hunt down.
I just think it shouldn't happen unless for a specific reason like diseases and so on...
It usually creates more problems than help.
I'd be scared myself of doing a 90% much less telling someone else to do it.
I'm sure some people do insane volumes like 75%
But then again their water specs must be very close to their tap.
Also I'm not a prime promoter and I'm old school...
Don't stress out the fish and they'll always be fine.
So I use water filters instead of prime and my water changes are around 10-15%
And I use root tabs instead of liquid ferts which can also create issues when people add too much because they see a yellow plant and think more is better.
You guys have to remember that ALL of us have killed fish.
And that people will do stupid things when they're worried about something.
Especially someone who's new to the hobby

I really think people should just explain things a little better to newcomers or provide sources of information when possible if it can be damaging to their tank.
Because if it was a personal friend I'm sure any of you would go beyond and above to make sure your friend did it right instead of killing his/her fish

Sorry but this needs to be said

You are being argumentative and VERY selective in what you are being critical of here and that is absolutely unfair.

You ignore the fact that many households have Chloramine in their tapwater which does NOT evaporate when left "a couple days" in a bucket. Yes you can use specific carbonised filtration but they are out of reach financially for many home fishkeepers...especially juveniles and those adults on limited budgets, they are also not always 100% effiecient in Chloramine removal like dechlorinators like Prime that are specificially manufactured to remove both Chloramine and Chlorine quickly, easily and cheaply....thus suiting people with limited budgets, using Bank of Mum & Dad or do not have space in their homes for buckets everywhere.

You also ignore the fact that on ALL suggestions of doing 90% water changes it is ENTIRELY due to a contaminant or proven issue within the aquarium. It is NOT suggested in any way, shape or form as a "normal" routine practice.

You might think what you are doing is right. It might well work for you.

BUT at the end of the day everyone has different aquariums, different water quality, different water chemistry from their taps etc.

Fishkeeping is NOT an exact science.

Fishkeeping is NOT the same for everyone.

You CANNOT sit there and be critical of what is standard emergency water changing routine that people have done for donkey's years for contaminant or disease or treatment carte blanche. And you absolutely should not ignore the fact that many households do not have Chlorine in their water, which can gas off but they do have Chloramine which cannot be gassed off

So the ONLY person recommending doing bad things is yourself cos you have zero clue what anyone else is dealing with cos what works for you and your water and your routine is rarely if ever going to be suitable for another person.

 

[itiwhetu]

I will never change more than 25% under any circumstance. The only time I have ever done huge water changes is in the quarantine facility and that was when we had been dosing with huge quantities of medications, those conditions should never occur in a home aquarium. Just because the professionals do it doesn't mean we should.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

The op of that thread never said who it was neither does it matter.
This isn't a hunt down.

It mattered only because you've argued that they've been given terrible advice for two pages now, yet have supplied no evidence that they were given terrible advice at all. So you can rant away, but you're making a lot of assumptions about the people and advice given here based on it, and won't show it. So it's a strawman argument now, you're just tearing down a paper tiger, not debating actual advice given.

I just think it shouldn't happen unless for a specific reason like diseases and so on...

You're allowed to have that opinion, and share it! But you don't get to dictate what advice others give either. That's the nature of a forum, that we can all share our views. There isn't a set script to follow here, it's a loose collection of people in the hobby who all have their own views and ways of doing things, and they often offer different kinds of advice in a thread. That's a good thing, and it's up to the poster what info they want to use, to ask more questions if they're confused, and what advice they plan to take, or leave.

It usually creates more problems than help.
I'd be scared myself of doing a 90% much less telling someone else to do it.
I'm sure some people do insane volumes like 75%
But then again their water specs must be very close to their tap.
Also I'm not a prime promoter and I'm old school...

Your approach to fishkeeping isn't the only way, and you're allowed to give your own perspective and advice. But you don't get to dismiss and attack others methods without without supplying evidence. Saying that volumes of 75% are insane and do more harm than good - any evidence for that claim? You said

I really think people should just explain things a little better to newcomers or provide sources of information when possible if it can be damaging to their tank.

So please, provide a source of information that routinely changing 75% of a tank's water volume does more harm than good, and is insane.

Don't stress out the fish and they'll always be fine.

Well that's just not true either. Stress is a big killer for fish, sure, but ammonia toxicity, parasitic worms, bacterial infections, a broken tank heater that won't switch off etc etc will still kill fish if no action is taken. There are plenty of things that can go wrong in an aquarium that are unrelated to stress.

You guys have to remember that ALL of us have killed fish.
And that people will do stupid things when they're worried about something.
Especially someone who's new to the hobby

Very true, I've often said the same myself, that I don't think there's a fish keeper alive who hasn't made a mistake at some point that proved fatal to a fish. It's a sad part of the hobby, and especially common for someone brand new to the hobby if they've been mis-sold fish or given bad advice by a store, like adding a full stocking a week after buying the tank. When someone new to the hobby posts, I see people go above and beyond to try to help.

I really think people should just explain things a little better to newcomers or provide sources of information when possible if it can be damaging to their tank.

People explain things the best that they can. You also have to bear in mind the balance between giving as much detail and advice as possible, and not bombarding someone - especially a beginner - with information overload and overwhelming them. Trying to balance giving the person as much clear info as possible in a way they can understand, while not overwhelming them with jargon or details that aren't relevant to the topic at hand is a difficult balance, and some are better at it than others. But they're still taking time out of their day to give that advice because they're trying to help.

You can't dictate how others post. But you are certainly allowed to give advice to posters yourself! If you dislike the advice often given here, then by all means, supply evidence for why we're wrong and debate the approach without dictating what others are allowed to say.

Because if it was a personal friend I'm sure any of you would go beyond and above to make sure your friend did it right instead of killing his/her fish

I'd give a personal friend the same advice I give here, because I only give advice that I believe is in the best welfare of the fish and gives them the best chance of survival. The same courses of action I'd follow myself, if I were in their shoes, and I think others do the same. I don't think anyone is giving bad advice maliciously. Of course some people make mistakes and are wrong about something at some point, but that's the beauty of an open forum, because others can politely correct them, or give their own advice, saying they disagree and why. We all learn from those examples. As long as it remains civil and family friendly, haven't seen that cause a problem.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I will never change more than 25% under any circumstance. The only time I have ever done huge water changes is in the quarantine facility and that was when we had been dosing with huge quantities of medications, those conditions should never occur in a home aquarium. Just because the professionals do it doesn't mean we should.

As a relevant mental exercise, I'd love to hear what advice you, and @kiko if he's willing, would give in this hypothetical emergency situation, if you would never do a large water change under any circumstances. Genuinely would like to know what you think someone should do if it happens!

Hypothetical example, but one that happens sometimes and is a serious emergency:

Poster has a 20g well stocked basic community tank, and their kids love to feed the fish. While mom was otherwise busy, toddler dumped the entire pot of fish flakes into the tank. Between making dinner and prepping the kids for bed, this isn't discovered for a few hours, most of the flakes have dissolved and rest is just a gloopy mess all over the tank and plants, and fish are gasping at the surface, pale and stressed.

What do you advise they do?

Edited because I know the difference between their, there and they're, I swear.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

As a relevant mental exercise, I'd love to hear what advice you, and @kiko if he's willing, would give in this hypothetical emergency situation, if you would never do a large water change under any circumstances. Genuinely would like to know what you think someone should do if it happens!

Hypothetical example, but one that happens sometimes and is a serious emergency:

Poster has a 20g well stocked basic community tank, and their kids love to feed the fish. While mom was otherwise busy, toddler dumped the entire pot of fish flakes into the tank. Between making dinner and prepping the kids for bed, this isn't discovered for a few hours, most of the flakes have dissolved and rest is just a gloopy mess all over the tank and plants, and fish are gasping at the surface, pale and stressed.

What do you advise they do?

Edited because I know the difference between their, there and they're, I swear.

I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this...

 

[GaryE]

The toddler scenario is a bit of an extreme circumstance. The last time that happened here was a 19 year old knocking a food canister over, and I think there was booze involved...

But other scenarios occur - a suspected environmental poisoning. A fish found dead after a weekend away in hot weather. A less catastrophic overfeeding, again, maybe while you were on vacation. A coffee spill. One of my friends found a cat in the tank once - sad freak out there. The fish survived it.

Never say never.

But at the same time, extreme scenarios are uncommon. I've changed more than 100% in 3 or 4 increments in response to specific situations. I'm sure everyone posting here would.

 

[kiko]

@AdoraBelle Dearheart I think this has gone long enough and people keep making up the stuff they want be it chlorine when I've stated multiple times about tap filters
and incremental water changes when issues arise...
my issue was the 90% regular water changes given as advice and the thread in question was closed and a mod sent me a pm saying I called someone stupid when I said the advice was bad and stupid
and then @wasmewasntit going about some advice about a fry tank which I did read that thread and the OP said in his very first post this was advice given to him previously before that person even posted the stuff about his fry tank
people don't bother reading things properly and then become witch hunters...
now if people want to water chase...their choice...
would I trust a 90% water change? hell no
would I recommend anything above 30% on a regular basis? nop
would I trust water changes based on 3rd party products? (water chasing 50% and higher)....no again
are bigger water changes necessary when there's issues? yes
how much would I recommend? 30-50% done over incremental changes or just whatever the person does but more often
the whole point of them when issues arise is to keep diluting stuff in the water
is there a difference from doing a 30% every day if stuff happens VS doing 2 water changes of 50%? yes
fish won't run into the risk of getting shocked by them bigger water changes being they're not used to it
I'd still be exchanging lots of water just the same and without the risk and without the need of 3rd party products to fix my water
hope this answered some of the questions about my ways