Trying Again With Tropical Fish

[Tropical_Fish]

Also,

I'd seen this tank on ebay:

http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fish-tank-Rectangula...93%3A1|294%3A50

It's bigger than mine so more the size I had planned, hasn't got heater - but can you tell if it's an under gravel heater or internal? It's local so if it went really cheap it might be worth me buying?

Also what is the down side to under gravel? I know some people had said it's harder to maintain - what needs doing etc?

 

[Bobtastic]

Can you explain how the debris is cleaned form the sand during a water change? Is there a device to do it, or is it simpler than that!?

User would typically use a gravel cleaner, which is a length of tubing attach to a wider plastic tube with an even wider "mouth" opening. When used on gravel the suction up the tube is enough to lift the dirt/waste/etc off the bottom with some of the gravel peices. The weight of the gravel is such that it usually falls back to the bottom leaving only the rubbish to be sucked up into ur bucket. With sand it's a little different as the particals are smaller and lighter, u would need to keep the cleaner off the actual bottom by a couple of cm/inches so not to suck up all the sand. Other than that it works in the same way.

 

[Bobtastic]

Also,

I'd seen this tank on ebay:

[URL="http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fish-tank-Rectangula...93%3A1|294%3A50"]http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fish-tank-Rectangula...93%3A1|294%3A50[/URL]

It's bigger than mine so more the size I had planned, hasn't got heater - but can you tell if it's an under gravel heater or internal? It's local so if it went really cheap it might be worth me buying?

Also what is the down side to under gravel? I know some people had said it's harder to maintain - what needs doing etc?

Tank looks ok, not sure what you're on about with the heater as there isn't one list in that link.

There is a difference between under gravel heating and under gravel filtration. The problems that you typically face with UGF is that the holes in the plastic tray under the gravel get clogged up if not maintained regularly. This would mean extremely regular and thorough cleaning of the gravel. It is also recommended that you remove the whole UGF ever 6 months for cleaning, which is a massive job!

I think UGH is usually used with heavily planted tanks, I'm not really sure what the benefits are TBH...

 

[Tropical_Fish]

Sorry I meant Under Gravel Filter not Heater - doe sthat tank look like it's got an internal filter or undergravel?

 

[Kizz]

Right so Shopping List is:

Fluval 1 / Fluval U1 - £13
50w heater - £10
Bag of Sand - £3
Some real plants (any recommendations) - £?
API liquid - £?
Ammonia - £2
Fish - £?

It's starting to sound like I might be better off buying a second hand set up!


Can you explain how the debris is cleaned form the sand during a water change? Is there a device to do it, or is it simpler than that!?

With the plants it all depends on your lighting you could get some Vallis and soem moss to start off with . The API Test kit will be around £17-£25 depending on where you buy it

The tank in the link theres a question been asked where it states it's an internal filter so there's that one been asked .Looks like a good deal for the price i'd say go for it keep the old one tho ...Once you've been bitten by the bug you'll end up setting that up too ! lol

 

[waterdrop]

Coming back to this thread I think its a good thing that the second hand tank is being thought about. When this thread started it sounded like your old tank was a 15G/57L but then it turned out it was only an 8G/~30L and that's quite a difference. 15-30G is kind of a sweet spot for beginners I think. Tanks smaller than than 15G really start to run more into the problem that the smaller volume of water gives a beginner less time to recognize that mistakes have been made before the fish are harmed sometimes. Larger water volumes (contrary to what one might think, wandering in a fish store the first time) are just easier for beginners.

I mean its not an major type thing, and a family still needs to consider all the logistics of space and cost and all, but if there's any way to work it out, we've usually seen an easier time of it for beginners who manage to work with somewhat larger water volumes. The same, really, goes for the UGF question. Undergravel filters sometimes get us into a bit of an online fuss here on TFF, because there are many very experienced fishkeepers here and many of them know how to make just about all the types of fishkeeping equipment work and work well, but many of us have the opinion that as a practical matter, UGFs are just something that we've watched get a lot of beginners into a mess with and when there are so many other good options out there that aren't all that terribly much more, its just been ashame to watch these people struggle.

Making yourself do proper monthly maintenance on your aquarium filter is bother enough with just the normal filters, its ashame to add some extra add-on difficulties to these maintenance processes.

Kizz has a good point that if you're able to pick up a 15G as your main tank, the having the 8G extra would be very good. An 8G is a perfect size as a hospital/quarantine tank, helping you to establish yet another good habit to have in this hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tropical_Fish]

Thanks I was thinking of keeping the smaller tank for that sort of thing, but to be honest I remembered it being bigger so we'd planned for it to take more room - so it was a bit dissapointing when we got it out!

I'm keeping an eye on that one on ebay - it's only round the corner so if it goes cheap enough I'll have it and get a heater to go with it.


I've touched on the subject of plants - is it advisable for me to have real plants or would I be better to just have some plastic plants? Do they make things easier or harder?

 

[waterdrop]

Its funny, as a "re-beginner" I knew enough from years ago to know that plants can be potentially difficult, that you can't just bring them home from the LFS and magically have them stay beautiful and green! So I bought one large plastic plant, basically to make the tank look nicer for my son during the long weeks of fishless cycling, but also potentially to put off the plant question. Eventually I did bring home an assortment of "easy" plants and immediately they looked so wonderful compared to the plastic ones that there was just no comparison, the plastic one had to be removed and tossed in storage with dozens of other "misc. unused fish hobby objects!"

So the problem is, yes, plants are (or can be) harder than they look, but they are such a wonderful part of the hobby that its hard not to give them a try and start learning from one's mistakes right from the beginning. That said, the fishless cycle can actually be a bit harder to understand with plants in there. Its something that people go both ways with though because an empty tank is, well, so empty!

One other thing to mention: if you were partly asking whether plants are "necessary" to make the tank operate, then no, they're not, they are a choice, but a pretty basic one and many of us feel that except for certain very specialized species tanks, freshwater tanks are usually almost as much about plants as they are about fish. And of course there's an entire new hobby now of "planted tanks" where hobbyists have crossed over to the other extreme that tanks are all about plants and the fish are incidental!

Sorry not to steer clearly, but its a really, really difficult question in my opinion. Its potentially both simple and complex. It both matters a lot and yet could matter little. I guess after a year and a half of getting really fascinated by the aquarium plant topic I cringe at the thought of all the things it would be good for you to know, but I also cringe at the thought of your tank without plants!! (probably just makes me the wrong person to answer )

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tropical_Fish]

Great - I'll have a look for plants at the same time then.

All good fun - I'm in no rush and want to do it right so will keep reading for a bit - but I think I've got the basics now and will go from there slowly collecting bits until I'm ready.

Thanks for all the help - please feel free to add anything to this topic if I have missed anything - otherwise I'll pop back to it when I have got any further or if I get any more questions

Cheers

 

[Tropical_Fish]

Well I won that 2nd hand fish tank on ebay for £12.50

So I'll be using a 60 litre tank, with internal filter and gravel. Just got to get a heater for it, and possibly some light bulbs.

Then I'll start a fishless cycle

 

[Tropical_Fish]

Will be trying to get the last few bits over the next couple of weeks then will be looking for fish.

I like the thought of trying to breed some of the live bearers to populate the tank. Any suggestions for nice easy ones to breed? How do I know which are female/male?

 

[Wills]

Think for livebearers I would have endlers small bright and very colorful. But in a 60L guppies or platties will do well not sure about mollies or swordtails. Though I would set up the filter and start a fishless cycle soon as possible Most livebearers wont survive a cycle and it can put them off reproducing for a while so I would get that bottled ammonia now

As regards the plants there are some plants that are just near impossible to kill in a tank with lighting, things like Valis, some Amazon swords and a lot of crypts. Valis is a reed type plant that sends out runners very quickly when you get it home from the shop cut off the strands that have a few brown bits on as they will die off but more often than not the roots will create runners which are how the plant grows quicky and covers the gaps and the dying parts of the plant feed its self slowly but if it really is limp then it needs to be chucked the other two are big leafy plants again when you get back from the shop trim off the dead leaves - which sometimes means you will have a few leaves and a root nub but it will grow back just as big as before and usually these take only a few weeks to catch up to where they were. The other trick with plants is finding those that have similar needs to your tank just like fish - some plants need running water with a lot of gas exchange so they need Co2 systems others need a lot of nutrients to match the ones in nature others need both - however some plants live in still ponds over rocks or growing off wood or to the sides of the river or pond so it mixes against rocks and soil. Its not to hard to find this information out on the net and find species of plant that you find easy to grow I have done this and now just stick with these three types and am very reluctant to try other types of plant. Good luck

 

[Tropical_Fish]

This might be a daft question but does the water need to be up to temperature for the fishless cycle?

I've not got a heater yet but should do soon - can I start the cycle without it?

 

[Wills]

I think it should be ok as its the same bacteria in a coldwater tank as it is in a warm water tank, thinking about it since cold water holds more oxygen it should help the bacteria because they are aerobic - can anyone else clarify this?

 

[OldMan47]

The cycle will move slower at lower temperatures but it will move forward. Until you start it won't move at all so you might as well start while waiting for a heater.