Solve A Dispute

[Forestpisces]

Ok so at work the other day and a customer comes in looking at filters etc. as i was filling out the forms to order him an external (he's very knowlagable chap and has known my boss going on 40years all the time of which he has kept fish) i asked him about the tank it was for and he said it was for his custom build 30gallon the dimensions of which is 37"L 12"D 18"H. So naturally curiouse i asked about his stocking, now this is what threw me he said he had:

1 Convict female
1 Firemouth Female
2 Angelfish
1 Rainbowshark
1 Purple spotted gudgeon
1 Lepord plec
5 neon dwarf rainbowfish

To me that sounds a little much and a risky stocking, but with him having more years of experience than i've been alive i just decided to question him a little more and he said they all get along well and are healthy with all the fish being fully grown as he'd had them all for at least 5years (bar the rainbows). I'm still not convinced but maybe i'm wrong? Should i say something? This guy has experience and is normally spot on with everything but then again i suppose when you have that kind of experience you can play with the rules a little. If it is an ok stocking i'd be very tempted to try something similar myself but i'm not convinced.

Opinions?

 

[mattlee]

looks quite a few teritorial fish in there but if they already live in harmony with each other then why not.....? if the tank it totally changed with new teritories then it may well kick up a bit of a fight to see who gets what part of the tank the tank only measures 3ft 1 inch long so isnt the longest and only a foot deep too so not massive room in there......
at the end of the day they are his fish but its maybe something i wouldnt try if im honest thinking about it.....

 

[drobbyb]

When it comes down to it, he is going to trust his experience over yours. I would politely inquire more about his setup and make a comment about it being a little heavy on the stocking, and see how that goes. You really don't want to press the issue, but at least you made an effort.

 

[Forestpisces]

I was going to suggest abit of a switch around for him, maybe lose an angel and the plec but keep the rainbows as dithers for the convict and firemouth to keep them in check. i really want to actually see the tank. It would be an amazing set-up if it actually would work. Although if i was to try it myself i' be tempted to leave the angels out of there and the plec. In theory the stocking really shouldn't work, but in theory alot of things that happen in the fishkeeping world shouldn't work. Any advise on me trying a similar set-up in a 30gallon?

 

[OldMan47]

There really are no right or wrong stockings. There are some that are far easier than others to keep everything healthy, that is my own preference, but if you are willing to put in the effort you can keep almost any fish together. Sometimes it is a case of compromising the water conditions, like keeping rainbows with angels. Sometimes it is a case of breaking up the line of sight to be able to keep several territorial fish in a small space. If you are willing to do the work it can often be done. My experience, somewhat similar to your customer in terms of time, is that I do better with a single species focus in each tank and try to keep my job easy by setting the conditions right for that one species.

 

[Mikaila31]

I personally don't see any issues, considering the fish all get along and aggression isn't too high.

 

[theshadowinc]

30gallon the dimensions of which is 37"L 12"D 18"H.

1 Convict female
1 Firemouth Female
2 Angelfish
1 Rainbowshark
1 Purple spotted gudgeon
1 Lepord plec
5 neon dwarf rainbowfish
Opinions?

LoL
its a 35 gal tank, probably should do it in litres but that really isn't the point here

small tank, definitly overstocked for the inch per gallon rule, lol sounds like he is old school! A rainbow shark grows big I don't hink a tank this size is good for it, I have kept weird stockings in a bigger tank, that the fish store always told me you arn't putting this in the same tank are you and always replied to them NO but I did anyways. I never ran into problems. I think the problem is his tank is overstocked. I bet you test his water something fishy is there, eaither he does alot of water changes or he has bad water in my opionion. Being a store you have rules where they need a sample of water if the fish die etc?

I wouldn't push anything and would be careful on how you ask certain questions customers like this will always be you are all about the money etc. This is just my opinion, and I have seen this before. Also the part I don't like is when I introduce fish to my tank and one dies its we need a water sample, a lfs lost all my business I was very polite about the situation they tested my water and 0 ammo and nitrite, but had 60 ppm or something of nitrate. My tank is a planted tank I dose Nitrate into my water, this means its always going to read high, even after doing a water change I need to dose the tank so the readings seem to stay steady, I even stated with a dead fish that I returned I have discus in my tank and they are fine! Guess what the person said to me I don't care, I replied then you don't care if I take my business somewhere else, I explained how a planted tank works and that I dose EI, and never had a problem even diagnosed the problem it was a fungus problem that killed the little cory, somewhere here I wrote about it. He used dirty test tubes to test my water, I tested my water before I went. The second time I went in I gave him water from a cycled tank another one in the house got my warrenty fish and never been back there and refuse to go there and they are a big line of stores here where I am and deal only in fish! Its a shame the person had a mouth and used it the way he did, not long after that I noticed an employee had went to another store I started dealing with and got to talk to him. He was employed by this place for over 15 years and why the move I asked him.... basically the owner don't care!

This is the reason I wouldn't say anything to get him wired up, maybe mention its overstocked or ask him, do you think its overstocked? and leave it at that. 40 years of experience, hmm... i question that.

stalkings I have had in a 55 gal tank all at once and yes I considered this overstocked and some got rehomed after they grew out

Catfish,
Common Pleco x 1
2 Albino Plecos
2 angel fish
1 red tail shark
2 Dwarf gourmis
Guppys
5 Kuli loaches
2 Clown Loach
10 tetris
2 flying foxes
3 sae
ghost shrimp the angels eat them
Many apple snails

This is a poor stalking list, it worked for a few years, some I wasn't sure on like the clown loaches didn't know they needed a 90gal tank! Yes I am knowledged and was at the time, but I was only knowledged in the world of betta and betta breeding not in all other fish. I bet every member here will say this is a major no no! Its when alot of them got bigger even though I upgraded filtration and used more water changes found it was hard to keep the water. Did my research and realized how much of a fool I was!

If it works don't fix it, if its broken fix it is the rule of thumb this worked till later on in life all where small when I baught them, had this setup in a 30 gal first then got a 55 I wanted more fish. Then never got more let them all grow out and sold most of them. Kept some but sold most. Then I learned more when the years went by and then moved into a house and now here I am back doing bettas again because I am comfortable with it, but active asking advice here because not even I know everything and age isn't beauty.

Hope this helps bet you will see many replies now on this on, this was before I actually took the time to learn how to do everything properly, so this is OLD SCHOOL! LOL

 

[Wills]

Sorry to be blunt but I dont understand peoples responses above. Basically if that was a new member I would say get rid of everything bar the the rainbows and then choose between the FM or the Angels.

That plec is probably a gibbiceps - so at adult size thats a 24 inch fish an FM and a con with angels in a 30 sounds to me like that scene in fight club where he needs to destroy something beautiful. Rainbow shark has a big ?? over it because it highly debatable about one in a 30g sometimes it works sometimes they need 55 min.

I agree with all above that he wont listen if he has been doing this for so long and its "worked". We all meet hundreds of people in a similar situation and as said this is old school fish keeping. But as far as I am concerned the tank is badly set up and stocked. Good luck with helping him though

 

[Forestpisces]

Thank goodness it's not just me who thought it was a bad mix of fish, we test this guy's water weekly and it's spot on (he has alot of filteration he's upgrading his external to that for a 75gal posssibly an overkill but with that much overstocking ) I really want to help this guy he's really approachable and friendly and actually fishless cycles his tanks (not old school ) but i doubt i could persuade him to give up his whole stock he was interested in us taking his angels actually the other week so they could come out of the equation. What else should i try to talk to him about. I think he's most attatched to his shark and the firemouth and con,but i'm unsure that removing the dwarf rainbows would be a good idea as they make good dithers even though they are a very active fish

Maybe i could suggest he removes the angels, plec and maybe swap his dwarf rainbows for something a little less active.

Leaving his stocking at

1 female con
1 firemouth
1 purple spotted gudgeon
1 rainbow shark
And 5 ?

I'd say it's alot better on bio-load down to removing the plec and removing the angels rids at least some of the aggression and personally i think they would be the most likely to be bullied by the con or FM as they are slow movers even if they can be aggressive and nippy i doubt they could fend off a fully grown con or FM. Changing or removing the rainbows will reduce problems with the PSG as i have no doubt that it will eventually think of them as food. What do you guy's think? It's still not perfect but i think it's better and more realistic.

Edit: BTW this is UKgallons smarty pants

 

[theshadowinc]

Edit: BTW this is UKgallons smarty pants

UK gallons okay, I will just keep that in mind, really its 35gallons here , 35US i think is what they call it, much easier just using letres I know all about this lol, been through it on my planted tank was talking to super and had to do everything in litres for the reason he was explaining everything in UK and I was assuming US gallons confused me in a hurry lol.

I am guessing the convict is a cichlid a type of one? I have always been told that cichlids require 4foot tank gallons not so much. Most 55gal (220Litres and up are these measurements) as for the shark eh... Still requires a 55 and up, even then if you give it a 100gal tank they grow even more. There are dwarf cichlids that grow 2-3.5 inches these are good for a 30gal tank as I have done research only issue to watch out for is aggresiveness.

I wonder if the water you test everyweek isn't his tap water, how many water changes he does etc, the bullying of fish isn't always what a label tells you some will grow together and get along as long as they where all small and introduced together it can sometimes work, the major problem is this tank is still overstocked and a common pleco should not be in a 30 gallon tank or is it a common at all?

turn over rate of 4x is normal but how much turn over rate is this?? For filtration don't kill fish, there is such thing as to much, and also to much flow, this will stress fish and kill them. What does he use now for filtration, maybe its time for him to look at rehoming a few fish, If I knew what I was talking about I would help with restocking, but honestly you probably have more experience when it comes to convicts etc I know nothing about these.

GL with helping him out

P.S. Because someone fishless cycles a tank doesnt mean they are not old school, his stalk of fish tells me he is old school

 

[Forestpisces]

Anyone else? I don't mean to sound rude but a female convict can live in 30gals just fine it's the combination of fish that is the issue here as is over stocking, the plec was a lepord plec very similar to a bristlenose in size and behaviour from what i''ve read and i will suggest for him to remove it. As i stated earlier the tank will have enough filteration for 75gals. Thats over double. Rainbow sharks can also be kept in a tank that is at leats 3ft long, this tank is just over that at 37" although 55gals and upwards is optimal.
Also i am slightly insulted that you are implying this man is lying to the shop that is owned by his best friend of 40 years whom he taught to keep fish properly (with filter heater etc) he comes in every week and really knows his stuff but is always open to advise as he loves to try new things. Personally i think it is no buisness of yours or anyone elses to judge him as he has ALOT of experience and has bred everything from cories to discus in his time. I really would prefer it if you kept such opinions to yourself and maybe research some fish a bit. A convict cichlid is one of the most common and well known in the buisness to not know what one is yet deal out advise about it is rather foolish. maybe you should also read through all the information posted before replying sorry to sound harsh.

Really anyone else?


Edit: i own 2 specise of dwarf cichlids and frankly find them irrelevant to this topic.

 

[theshadowinc]

Anyone else? I don't mean to sound rude but a female convict can live in 30gals just fine it's the combination of fish that is the issue here as is over stocking, the plec was a lepord plec very similar to a bristlenose in size and behaviour from what i''ve read and i will suggest for him to remove it. As i stated earlier the tank will have enough filteration for 75gals. Thats over double. Rainbow sharks can also be kept in a tank that is at leats 3ft long, this tank is just over that at 37" although 55gals and upwards is optimal.
Also i am slightly insulted that you are implying this man is lying to the shop that is owned by his best friend of 40 years whom he taught to keep fish properly (with filter heater etc) he comes in every week and really knows his stuff but is always open to advise as he loves to try new things. Personally i think it is no buisness of yours or anyone elses to judge him as he has ALOT of experience and has bred everything from cories to discus in his time. I really would prefer it if you kept such opinions to yourself and maybe research some fish a bit. A convict cichlid is one of the most common and well known in the buisness to not know what one is yet deal out advise about it is rather foolish. maybe you should also read through all the information posted before replying

sorry to sound harsh.

Really anyone else?


Edit: i own 2 specise of dwarf cichlids and frankly find them irrelevant to this topic.

I thaught I was being honest when I said I know nothing about convicts......

I keep discus myself and in a planted tank! Most common is not a convict, most common is your Goldfish, Angelfish, Tetris, bettas. These are the most common even walmart sells Bettas making them more common than a convict. So I didn't give out advice on the fish, just did research on it and states if the fish is indeed the right one, that a 20 min is required for a pair! And also they shouldn't be mixed with other fish because of aggression. Other than that I don't really care for any of the convicts, I do like Malwi Lake and the Mbuna's ! Other than that have no desire to even care about convicts, I know I won't be keeping them as I raise discus, and bettas along with cory's. Doing calculations now 16 years keeping fish, many breeds under my belt and I still consider myself a novice in many areas!

As for the water I don't take water in from the planted tank never its eaither tap water or water from a cycled tank thats empty . So I am lying to my store?? No they asked for a sample and didn't specify! Less issues on trying to educate someone!

Like stated above he will trust his experience more than yours, the other way this works out is because certain fish are rouge fish

Heck I keep uttos in with my discus with no issues

its only advice from everyone eaither take it or leave it

 

[Curiosity101]

Hmmm,

From what I've been reading about Purple Spotted Gudgeon's their average life span is 3-5 years...if that fish has really been in that tank for at least 5 years...I'd genuinely be surprised. Especially as the gudgeons eat small fish EG. Young rainbows...

If agression levels are ok and his water stats are holding then the only things I would really suggest removing are...
Leopard Plec, it probably is a gibbiceps and if so certainly isn't fully grown.
Rainbowfish, just because I'd be worried about them becoming dinner.

Other than that, although I hate the mix of fish as I'm guessing there is probably some tension in that tank. All the fish can handle themselves and I think the important thing is that there are no breeding pairs.
Stick a male convict or firemouth in their and all hell would break loose!

 

[Mikaila31]

small tank, definitly overstocked for the inch per gallon rule, lol sounds like he is old school! A rainbow shark grows big I don't hink a tank this size is good for it, I have kept weird stockings in a bigger tank, that the fish store always told me you arn't putting this in the same tank are you and always replied to them NO but I did anyways. I never ran into problems. I think the problem is his tank is overstocked. I bet you test his water something fishy is there, eaither he does alot of water changes or he has bad water in my opionion. Being a store you have rules where they need a sample of water if the fish die etc?

I wouldn't push anything and would be careful on how you ask certain questions customers like this will always be you are all about the money etc. This is just my opinion, and I have seen this before. Also the part I don't like is when I introduce fish to my tank and one dies its we need a water sample, a lfs lost all my business I was very polite about the situation they tested my water and 0 ammo and nitrite, but had 60 ppm or something of nitrate. My tank is a planted tank I dose Nitrate into my water, this means its always going to read high, even after doing a water change I need to dose the tank so the readings seem to stay steady, I even stated with a dead fish that I returned I have discus in my tank and they are fine! Guess what the person said to me I don't care, I replied then you don't care if I take my business somewhere else, I explained how a planted tank works and that I dose EI, and never had a problem even diagnosed the problem it was a fungus problem that killed the little cory, somewhere here I wrote about it. He used dirty test tubes to test my water, I tested my water before I went. The second time I went in I gave him water from a cycled tank another one in the house got my warrenty fish and never been back there and refuse to go there and they are a big line of stores here where I am and deal only in fish! Its a shame the person had a mouth and used it the way he did, not long after that I noticed an employee had went to another store I started dealing with and got to talk to him. He was employed by this place for over 15 years and why the move I asked him.... basically the owner don't care!

sorry but I greatly disagree with you. You say he is old school, but then say his tank is overstocked by the inch per gal rule. We have gone over this many times on this forum that this is a guideline that more than not does not work. It is a old rule and far outdated IMO.

Just because his tank is overstocked he as bad water or high maintenance? No that is not true. I have clearly and drastically overstocked before. At one point I had 100 endlers in a 15 gal tank and everyday there were more and more. The water in this tank was good even in terms of NO3 and the fish were healthy. The maintenance was more difficult, not that it was more work. The tank was lucky to get a weekly WC, these were quite large +75%. The real hard thing was not sucking up the fish with the gravel vac.

Overstocking depends on more than fish and tank size. First off everyone stocks differently. I see a 30gal tank, but its a 30 gal breeder. He has a large surface area, because the tank is longer. If it was a 30 high or hex then no this stocking would not work. Too me it sounds like he as adequate filtration, especially if he plans to go the a 75gal canister,which IMO will not be too much for the tank. They have flow controls, you can never have too much filtration, only too much flow.

Also you say you have 60ppm of nitrate, yet still dose KNO3? I did this as well when I started off with EI, fish were never bothered by the high nitrates. But still you are suppose to adjust EI to your tank. 20-30 ppm of nitrate should be your target range and in high tech planted tanks we would rather not have excess. Especially excess of only one nutrient. I would expect you get nitrates from your tap or you are dosing way too much KNO3. If it were me I would cut KNO3 from what you dose. This is what I have done, since 20ppm comes out of tap. There's no need to add more. Too much will create problems.

I stick with what I said earlier that I see no problems with the stocking provided all the fish get along. Sure if someone new came here with no experience I would say they are overstocked, when you have been at it for a while you learn how to manage higher stocking levels and maintain stability. It sounds like he knows what he is doing and the OP said his water tests fine. And IMO taking a water sample from the tap or a better tank is ripping off the store. Ask the store what requirements your water must meet for a refund. If your water can't match it then the refund does not apply to you.

 

[meguro]

Personally i think it is no buisness of yours or anyone elses to judge him as he has ALOT of experience and has bred everything from cories to discus in his time.

So in your first post you're asking us to give our opinions and now you're saying you don't want our opinions? You also say we shouldn't judge him or question his methods but you have already illustrated that you yourself have done the very same thing.

I was going to suggest abit of a switch around for him, maybe lose an angel and the plec

Hypocrite.