Refusal Of The Overstocking Rule.

[Caprichoso]

I always believe in less is more with my tanks. Everyone advise overstocking Malawi tanks because of aggression, I have a 55 gallon Malawi tank with 11 mbuna in it that are a mix of zebras and one dominant male blue dolphin. I have had NO untoward aggression, no one hanging out at the filter, no death, no disease, and this tank is 2 years old. I chose my specimens VERY carefully. I have a 100 gallon tank that has 6 black skirts, 3 angels, 2 clowns, 4 rosies, 1 male dwarf gourami, 6 platys, 2 mosquito fish, a Siamese fighter, a Bolivian ram, a plec......and yep that's it. Seems like it would be empty, doesn't it? Not actually. Since everybody has so much space, everybody displays natural behaviour. They dont get stressed, so I dont get a disease. Maintenance is a breeze because the water quality stays good for quite a while. That said, I run heavy-duty filtration on it, too. Just because you under-stock, doesn't mean you can skimp on the important things.

If you are considering over-stocking, then by all means, use your own best personal judgement, but know that it is going to mean more dedication from you on maintaining water quality and nutritional balance for the fish in your tank.


Good Luck Chappo!

Lol, that would just drive me mad to have all that tank and so few fish! I would be filling that sucker up pronto ...hence why I have 140g tank and just over 100 fish! To each their own though.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I always believe in less is more with my tanks. Everyone advise overstocking Malawi tanks because of aggression, I have a 55 gallon Malawi tank with 11 mbuna in it that are a mix of zebras and one dominant male blue dolphin. I have had NO untoward aggression, no one hanging out at the filter, no death, no disease, and this tank is 2 years old. I chose my specimens VERY carefully. I have a 100 gallon tank that has 6 black skirts, 3 angels, 2 clowns, 4 rosies, 1 male dwarf gourami, 6 platys, 2 mosquito fish, a Siamese fighter, a Bolivian ram, a plec......and yep that's it. Seems like it would be empty, doesn't it? Not actually. Since everybody has so much space, everybody displays natural behaviour. They dont get stressed, so I dont get a disease. Maintenance is a breeze because the water quality stays good for quite a while. That said, I run heavy-duty filtration on it, too. Just because you under-stock, doesn't mean you can skimp on the important things.

If you are considering over-stocking, then by all means, use your own best personal judgement, but know that it is going to mean more dedication from you on maintaining water quality and nutritional balance for the fish in your tank.


Good Luck Chappo!

Lol, that would just drive me mad to have all that tank and so few fish! I would be filling that sucker up pronto ...hence why I have 140g tank and just over 100 fish! To each their own though.

I have a 40g with (i think) 6 female platys, 2 male swordtails, a male platy, 4 albino cories, and a BN pleco. Seems like I have a lot of space, but since I have a hex, it doesnt look that big. I cannot wait to get my other tank set up. 4ft x 1ft x 1.5ft

 

[Bignose]

... my only problem was is that some people can over exaggerate to much.

1) Writing as a mod, let me just thanks to everyone in this thread. It is a charged topic, and it could have gotten ugly quick, but you guys have all shown why this is one of the best forums on the Internet by treating this subject exceptionally well. As I like to write often: we can all disagree, but so long as we all respect one another, conversations like this can happen

2) in response to the above, the issue at hand is your judgement of what constitutes exaggeration or not. You are admittedly a beginner. The advice you are being given reflects your level of experience. The idea is to give you a buffer zone so that things won't go sour quickly. To give you time to recognize and ameliorate problems before they get really out of hand and cause the death of your fish -- exactly what you are stating you want to avoid.

For example, if your cycling bacteria colony should happen to die off for any reason, a lightly stocked tank builds up ammonia much less quickly than a heavily stocked tank. An experienced fishkeeper would notice his fish showing signs of distress probably before any other symptoms would show themselves. This is nothing that can be taught over the Internet. It only comes from experience -- either hard learned when a tank goes bad or simply by having watched their fish for many hours and knowing what their fish's normal behaviors are -- again, nothing that can be taught over the Internet.

Furthermore, as with any new hobby, a lot of people when they first get interested in a hobby tend to go all out. They get into gardening and till up half the yard. They get into golf and go out and buy brand new clubs. Or, they get into fishkeeping and buy a large tank with expensive fish. The problem is that all too often, the interest in the hobby flames out.

And, unlike a patch of weeds in the yard or veggies rotting on the vine or a golf bag and clubs collecting dust in a corner of the garage -- if you burn out on fish, you have living creatures that you really are obligated to take care of, probably for quite a few years as most fish can be fairly long lived with good care. You have living creatures under your care that suffer if you decide to ignore them. And, that is something that every member of this board wants to avoid.

So, to this last point, conservative stocking is not nearly as much work as an aggressive stocking. Thereby significantly reducing your chance of burning out on the hobby, and thereby keeping the fish healthy and happy for a long time.

To sum up -- it isn't that people are necessarily exaggerating. But, trying to give you the best chance to succeed so that you will be able to have many tanks with many long-lived thriving fish. The advice is in the best interest, not only of the fish, but your best interest, too. If you look at it from that point of view, I think it will take on a very different meaning for you.

 

[nanoMama86]

I feel that I need to up the number of rosies by about 4 females and probably will up the number of blackskirts to a good 10. However, I am a conservative, slow stocker to avoid stress and territorial issues. I have never had any aggression issues or problems except when I tried tigers who after about about six months my angels refused to tolerate their fin-nipping and I watched them systematically hunt them down and kill every last one of them in about an hour. It was like watching a wolf pack . My angels RULE my tank. As such, I have to be extremely careful what I put in there.
I watch the fish I want at my lfs for several weeks to make sure they are docile enough to not offend my angels, before I purchase them. For their own longevity, you understand.

 

[KittyKat]

I have a 100 gallon tank that has 6 black skirts, 3 angels, 2 clowns, 4 rosies, 1 male dwarf gourami, 6 platys, 2 mosquito fish, a Siamese fighter, a Bolivian ram, a plec......and yep that's it. Seems like it would be empty, doesn't it? Not actually. Since everybody has so much space, everybody displays natural behaviour.

It is very unlikely that schooling and social fish are displaying natural behaviour in those numbers. In fact, it could not be possible for the schooling species because their natural behaviour would be to interact with others of their own kind.

I feel that I need to up the number of rosies by about 4 females and probably will up the number of blackskirts to a good 10. However, I am a conservative, slow stocker to avoid stress and territorial issues. I have never had any aggression issues or problems except when I tried tigers who after about about six months my angels refused to tolerate their fin-nipping and I watched them systematically hunt them down and kill every last one of them in about an hour. It was like watching a wolf pack . My angels RULE my tank. As such, I have to be extremely careful what I put in there.
I watch the fish I want at my lfs for several weeks to make sure they are docile enough to not offend my angels, before I purchase them. For their own longevity, you understand.

And what about the clowns? Stress from being in small groups (especially with aggressive fish like your angels) is, in my experience, higher than the stress from new fish more often for a short period of time. In fact, there should be no stress associated with increasing numbers for your schooling fish. Exactly what sort of stress have you experienced or expect?

Back on the subject of stocking, I don't know if or where you asked, but I and many other people here would have told you that tiger barbs are a bad idea with angels, but if you really wanted to try, then 15 would have been a good number to start with. In small groups (like how you keep other schooling/shoaling fish), tiger barbs do not behave naturally: they nip and there was no way they would have not done so. Were your tiger barbs in a small group? If they were, how does that fit in with your views on "less is more"?

I am not saying that you should stock more fish, I am saying that you should stock more per species (potentially instead of so many species).

What will happen when two of the angels pair up?

 

[nanoMama86]

I started out with 20 tigers. The almost entire bottom of my tank is a custom silicone cave network for my clowns. I have tried to up the their numbers on 3 occasions and met with severe bouts of aggression. I just happened to have gotten two very dominant male clowns who will tolerate no interlopers. My Bolivian Ram is the only other bottom dweller tough enough to have carved out a territory for himself. I have tried to pair him up as well with no jive. Ein and Stein, my two clowns, do come out and play and roughhouse most parts of the day, but god help any new clowns I put in there. They immediately grey out and start the the attack. I once left a new 3 in for a week just to see if things would settle and finally had to take them out and put them in quarantine just to fatten them back up to where my lfs would take them back. Oh and all three of my angels are male. They leave the other fish alone as long as they leave the angels alone. The angels primarily worry about the angels. If the other fish can not or will not settle a dispute, and it starts to bother or interfere with the angels, they lock the tank down .So when I add new shoalers, and the fight for pecking order ensues, my angels chase everybody into hiding and keep them there until they can come out and be nice. Ivan, Stan, and Bloke, my angels, are some bad street thug angels. They are so sweet and docile as long as the tank is calm, but let someone start something, and their colors go almost black and they swim side by side and hunt the offender down and punish him. I provide a TON of living and hiding spaces and plenty of bolt holes and I am slowly building my shoaler numbers.

Btw, what do you think is an appropriate number of black-skirts? I have 6, was wanting 10-ish, but would do a bigger shoal if you think they would be happier? I would also love some advice if you think you know a way I can build my clown numbers. I paid almost $900 us dollars for my cave system to just have 2 clowns.

 

[nanoMama86]

I should also mention that my tank is still newish at 8 months old, but my angels are a year and a half old. Also, my clowns are still young at only 4 inches.

 

[soybean]

Have you tried removing the clowns for a week or two, adding new ones to the tank, then reintroducing the old ones?

 

[nanoMama86]

That was the first strategy I tried. I put my original 2 in q-tank for 2 weeks and added 4 new slightly larger and darker clowns in the 100 gallon from my lfs that were in a blood parrot tank, thinking, ok, these guys can handle blood parrots, they can handle Ein and Stein. Things were good until I fed the first time. Ein and Stein greyed out, ejected their barbs and proceeded to shred the newcomers. They never fight each other, only other clowns. And tiger barbs. I have wondered if it was because when I bought them they were barely an inch long and were still in their little shipping bag covered in ick and have just been thru hell and back together. If they won't tolerate more clowns, i'm not gonna force them.


I have had them for 3 months and they have grown a full three inches and are steadily still growing. They gallivant around the tank and keep things stirred up all the time. They especially love love to dart at Bloke and break away at the last second and then go hover in a corner and bob up and down almost as if they are laughing to each other.


Uh Oh,.... I hope my crazy love for my babies isn't showing!

 

[soybean]

Fair enough. At least they have each other and aren't alone.

 

[nanoMama86]

Everybody, whether they have had 1 fish or 1,000 fish is still learning, I think. Fish, like everything else are individuals and no rule save the cycling rules is set in stone. Experience certainly comes into play, and you have to be willing to OBSERVE your fish and OBSERVE them everyday so you know what is happening in your tank. I love this forum and the mods who are always ready to answer a desperate question at 2 in the morning because they have the experience that I do not. On my end I listen and apply what I am told and use what works and modify what does not. I do not get upset over the advice. I asked for it.

 

[nanoMama86]

Beautiful dwarf gourami in your sig, btw, soybean! Mine is about 4 and a half inches long right now. Is that where he will max at?

 

[KittyKat]

It sounds like you've had some really bad luck nanoMama86. It is unusual for fish which are being added to an aquarium that large to not fit in, but it is not unheard of for fish to not be accepted into established territory. For the clowns, I would have suggested rearrange the tank, but is that possible with the silicone caves?

Beautiful dwarf gourami in your sig, btw, soybean! Mine is about 4 and a half inches long right now. Is that where he will max at?

Dwarf gouramis max out at 2" nose to base of tail. Are you sure you don't have a different species?

 

[This Old Spouse]

It sounds like you've had some really bad luck nanoMama86. It is unusual for fish which are being added to an aquarium that large to not fit in, but it is not unheard of for fish to not be accepted into established territory. For the clowns, I would have suggested rearrange the tank, but is that possible with the silicone caves?

Beautiful dwarf gourami in your sig, btw, soybean! Mine is about 4 and a half inches long right now. Is that where he will max at?

Dwarf gouramis max out at 2" nose to base of tail. Are you sure you don't have a different species?

That's what I was wondering! Could it be a discus?

 

[nanoMama86]

Dang I sure hope he isn't a discus! He is super large for a dwarf I found out after a quick visit to my lfs today. He hadn't had any in quite a while and I asked where he got mine and come to find out mine is not a true dwarf. He apparently carries the dwarf genes and coloring, and will not reach the full size of 8 inches plus of the bigger gouramis. Well had I known this when I bought Bozo, I would not have purchased him. I make a point to not buy hybrids. I was not even aware the dwarfs could hybridize with the larger ones. But he looks like a classic dwarf in his shape and coloring. When my hubby gets home I will post a pic of him and show ya'll my mutant! I should probably try to get one with him next to Bloke who is my largest angel for size comparison, huh?

Oh and no go on re-arranging the caves. they are permanently set.