Refusal Of The Overstocking Rule.

[Tizer]

dfield, your problems are easily resolved by taking some fish back to your local shop, you dont have to upgrade your tank every time

 

[Twinklecaz]

I can't be bothered to read this whole post word for word but I would like to know who said 9 Neons overstocked a 20 gal?

 

[This Old Spouse]

I can't be bothered to read this whole post word for word but I would like to know who said 9 Neons overstocked a 20 gal?

So, we should be bothered to look that up for you?

 

[Dieses Madchen]

In regards to overstocking, and I am only asking as I am about to set up a Malawi tank, I read in a book that with certain types overstaocking in neccessary sometime due to aggression? What is meant by that? If overstocking if define by having more fish that your filtration can handle, or is it defined by inches of fish per gallon? I know you definitely do not want more fish than your filter can handle, but at the same time, if over stocking is deemed by inchs of fish per gallon, how does limiting the amount of open space betwene fishes cut down on aggression? More grey areas in the "rules of overstocking"

 

[Twinklecaz]

I can't be bothered to read this whole post word for word but I would like to know who said 9 Neons overstocked a 20 gal?

So, we should be bothered to look that up for you?

That would be great love, thanks

 

[KittyKat]

In regards to overstocking, and I am only asking as I am about to set up a Malawi tank, I read in a book that with certain types overstaocking in neccessary sometime due to aggression? What is meant by that? If overstocking if define by having more fish that your filtration can handle, or is it defined by inches of fish per gallon? I know you definitely do not want more fish than your filter can handle, but at the same time, if over stocking is deemed by inchs of fish per gallon, how does limiting the amount of open space betwene fishes cut down on aggression? More grey areas in the "rules of overstocking"

No, "overstock" means have higher stocking and higher filtration than normal. In overly simplified terms: in Malawi Mbuna, the alpha fish is always aggressive towards others of its own kind. But it usually won't pick on one fish, but will pick on every fish. So, if you have one alpha male with 5 of its own kind, then each of the others will get 1/5 of his attention. On the other hand, if there are 15 of it's own kind, then each other fish will get 1/15 of his attention, so it would be harassed 3 times less. This doesn't apply to all Mbuna in the same way, for example, L. caeruleus are not considered "aggressive" for Mbuna, so 1m and 3-4f is a good stock because of these species, the aggression is primarily sexual, with the male intent on breeding, not beating the crap out of others of its own species. On the other hand, P. demasoni are closer to the first example, where the aggression is partially for the sake of beating the crap out of every other demasoni and partially of a sexual nature, so a good stock would be 1-2m (and the number of males depends on the tank size, as they have to be able to get away from each other) with 10-14f, so that the males have enough females to keep them permanently busy, and little competition, so they don't have to spend their time trying to kill each other off. Also, without the rockwork, neither of these two examples are likely to work in the long term because the rockwork also acts as a way of letting the sub-dominant fish get away.

It is always important to have enough filtration for the stock. If you really want to use the length per volume guidelines (which I consider to be poor, and recommend common sense over them), then add "for fish not over 2 inches in length and for standard sized tanks over 60 cm long" to the end of it. You can still use this for Malawis, but remember that most species have a "minimum number" attached to them so you'd end up with a huge tank with almost no fish in it.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

In regards to overstocking, and I am only asking as I am about to set up a Malawi tank, I read in a book that with certain types overstaocking in neccessary sometime due to aggression? What is meant by that? If overstocking if define by having more fish that your filtration can handle, or is it defined by inches of fish per gallon? I know you definitely do not want more fish than your filter can handle, but at the same time, if over stocking is deemed by inchs of fish per gallon, how does limiting the amount of open space betwene fishes cut down on aggression? More grey areas in the "rules of overstocking"

No, "overstock" means have higher stocking and higher filtration than normal. In overly simplified terms: in Malawi Mbuna, the alpha fish is always aggressive towards others of its own kind. But it usually won't pick on one fish, but will pick on every fish. So, if you have one alpha male with 5 of its own kind, then each of the others will get 1/5 of his attention. On the other hand, if there are 15 of it's own kind, then each other fish will get 1/15 of his attention, so it would be harassed 3 times less. This doesn't apply to all Mbuna in the same way, for example, L. caeruleus are not considered "aggressive" for Mbuna, so 1m and 3-4f is a good stock because of these species, the aggression is primarily sexual, with the male intent on breeding, not beating the crap out of others of its own species. On the other hand, P. demasoni are closer to the first example, where the aggression is partially for the sake of beating the crap out of every other demasoni and partially of a sexual nature, so a good stock would be 1-2m (and the number of males depends on the tank size, as they have to be able to get away from each other) with 10-14f, so that the males have enough females to keep them permanently busy, and little competition, so they don't have to spend their time trying to kill each other off. Also, without the rockwork, neither of these two examples are likely to work in the long term because the rockwork also acts as a way of letting the sub-dominant fish get away.

It is always important to have enough filtration for the stock. If you really want to use the length per volume guidelines (which I consider to be poor, and recommend common sense over them), then add "for fish not over 2 inches in length and for standard sized tanks over 60 cm long" to the end of it. You can still use this for Malawis, but remember that most species have a "minimum number" attached to them so you'd end up with a huge tank with almost no fish in it.

Oh most definitely. I have put a lot of research in, and I have a stocking plan based on the recommended numbers/ratios for the particular species that I have chosen. I guess the book used wrong wording. I always thought of overstocking as more than the filter can handle/more than the tank can handle. What about "peaceful" species? Do alpha males appear to be the same way with types deemed to be non aggressive?

 

[KittyKat]

Oh most definitely. I have put a lot of research in, and I have a stocking plan based on the recommended numbers/ratios for the particular species that I have chosen. I guess the book used wrong wording. I always thought of overstocking as more than the filter can handle/more than the tank can handle. What about "peaceful" species? Do alpha males appear to be the same way with types deemed to be non aggressive?

The definition of "overstocked" varied on the context. For Rift Lake cichlids, it often means "more than standard number of fish", for community tanks, it is more often used as "too many fish for the tank".

Well, the L. caeruleus are considered to be "peaceful" compared to most Mbuna, so while they are not as likely to fight, the males are still going to be bothering the females. Keep in mind at this point that their default level of aggression is still much higher than, for example, that of a guppy, so the males can be more forceful in making their intentions known. If you are asking whether a "peaceful" Mbuna would need to be overstocked, then probably no. But then again, aggressive Mbuna don't actually *need* to be overstocked, as long as the tank is big enough and enough numbers of fish are in it (which I have never seen). Does that makes sense?

Edit: for example, I have a 100*50*40 cm tank with 2m 15f P. demasoni, lets say it's overstocked because that's 68 inches of fish 53 gallons (I can't think of any other way to imply what "overstocked" is in this case, although I don't consider that to be overstocked myself because it's just more than usual number of fish) and the filter is for a 100 gallon tank. If I had a 150*50*40 cm tank with the same fish, filter and 50% more rockwork, that would be 68 in in 79 gal, but the stocking would still be fine because there are still enough fish to spread the aggression while providing the hiding areas needed.

Maybe the best way to describe the "need" to overstock on Mbuna is that the base volume per species of a certain length is higher than that for other freshwater species and the numbers of fish per species are truly "compulsory", not like people get away with keeping only 1 or 2 tetra per species. "Overstocking" is just one way to deal with the extra aggression and needs.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

Oh most definitely. I have put a lot of research in, and I have a stocking plan based on the recommended numbers/ratios for the particular species that I have chosen. I guess the book used wrong wording. I always thought of overstocking as more than the filter can handle/more than the tank can handle. What about "peaceful" species? Do alpha males appear to be the same way with types deemed to be non aggressive?

The definition of "overstocked" varied on the context. For Rift Lake cichlids, it often means "more than standard number of fish", for community tanks, it is more often used as "too many fish for the tank".

Well, the L. caeruleus are considered to be "peaceful" compared to most Mbuna, so while they are not as likely to fight, the males are still going to be bothering the females. Keep in mind at this point that their default level of aggression is still much higher than, for example, that of a guppy, so the males can be more forceful in making their intentions known. If you are asking whether a "peaceful" Mbuna would need to be overstocked, then probably no. But then again, aggressive Mbuna don't actually *need* to be overstocked, as long as the tank is big enough and enough numbers of fish are in it (which I have never seen). Does that makes sense?

Edit: for example, I have a 100*50*40 cm tank with 2m 15f P. demasoni, lets say it's overstocked because that's 68 inches of fish 53 gallons (I can't think of any other way to imply what "overstocked" is in this case, although I don't consider that to be overstocked myself because it's just more than usual number of fish) and the filter is for a 100 gallon tank. If I had a 150*50*40 cm tank with the same fish, filter and 50% more rockwork, that would be 68 in in 79 gal, but the stocking would still be fine because there are still enough fish to spread the aggression while providing the hiding areas needed.

Maybe the best way to describe the "need" to overstock on Mbuna is that the base volume per species of a certain length is higher than that for other freshwater species and the numbers of fish per species are truly "compulsory", not like people get away with keeping only 1 or 2 tetra per species. "Overstocking" is just one way to deal with the extra aggression and needs.

I have a 75g tank (which will prolly be closer to 65 after rocks) and planned stocking (subject to change, havent even gotten past the fishless cycle) is:
10 x Pseudotropheus saulosi
6 x Pseudotropheus flavus
5 x Pseudotropheus socolofi

These numbers are pulled from the research I have done, and I have written down the required m/f ratio which I plan to follow. Is this stocking adequate for these fish? Do the numbers need to be upped or lowered? (sorry for all the questions, I have done a lot of research but its good to hear from peoples experiences as well)

 

[Malawi MaD]

Thing is with malawi's especially, people always say overstock the tank, do this, do that but its not necessarily going to work for everyone just because it worked for you. Yes overstocking can help a lot but it can cause more problems to, its not just about overstocking the tank if you choose wrong species and mix the wrong ones together its going to go wrong no matter how much you 'overstock' your tank. The labidochromis caeruleus is always classed as a more peacefull fish to and i dont really understand why, as these can be just as aggressive as any other mbuna. It all depends on what the fish is like, ive had L caeruleus in the past and many of the males seem to be less aggressive ( still the odd chasing about) but had just as many males with the temperament of a bull and will chase/attack anything in his part of the tank. Di your stock list is fine for a 75G you could add another species and add to the groups you have, but you could add the ones listed above monitor them for a while then if you decide to add more you can. Just remeber to add a good amount of fish at once because if you had 1 or 2 by themselves i guarantee you will loose them to aggression.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

Thing is with malawi's especially, people always say overstock the tank, do this, do that but its not necessarily going to work for everyone just because it worked for you. Yes overstocking can help a lot but it can cause more problems to, its not just about overstocking the tank if you choose wrong species and mix the wrong ones together its going to go wrong no matter how much you 'overstock' your tank. The labidochromis caeruleus is always classed as a more peacefull fish to and i dont really understand why, as these can be just as aggressive as any other mbuna. It all depends on what the fish is like, ive had L caeruleus in the past and many of the males seem to be less aggressive ( still the odd chasing about) but had just as many males with the temperament of a bull and will chase/attack anything in his part of the tank. Di your stock list is fine for a 75G you could add another species and add to the groups you have, but you could add the ones listed above monitor them for a while then if you decide to add more you can. Just remeber to add a good amount of fish at once because if you had 1 or 2 by themselves i guarantee you will loose them to aggression.

Speaking of other species, my husband loved the fish on the list you gave me. We may end up changing our plan altogether based on that list lol.

 

[Malawi MaD]

Thing is with malawi's especially, people always say overstock the tank, do this, do that but its not necessarily going to work for everyone just because it worked for you. Yes overstocking can help a lot but it can cause more problems to, its not just about overstocking the tank if you choose wrong species and mix the wrong ones together its going to go wrong no matter how much you 'overstock' your tank. The labidochromis caeruleus is always classed as a more peacefull fish to and i dont really understand why, as these can be just as aggressive as any other mbuna. It all depends on what the fish is like, ive had L caeruleus in the past and many of the males seem to be less aggressive ( still the odd chasing about) but had just as many males with the temperament of a bull and will chase/attack anything in his part of the tank. Di your stock list is fine for a 75G you could add another species and add to the groups you have, but you could add the ones listed above monitor them for a while then if you decide to add more you can. Just remeber to add a good amount of fish at once because if you had 1 or 2 by themselves i guarantee you will loose them to aggression.

Speaking of other species, my husband loved the fish on the list you gave me. We may end up changing our plan altogether based on that list lol.

lol There is many more to name but i think the list would never be decided if i kept throwing different species at you . It's to hard to decide as there is a lot of nice fish to choose from . What other's did you husband take a liking to?

 

[Dieses Madchen]

Thing is with malawi's especially, people always say overstock the tank, do this, do that but its not necessarily going to work for everyone just because it worked for you. Yes overstocking can help a lot but it can cause more problems to, its not just about overstocking the tank if you choose wrong species and mix the wrong ones together its going to go wrong no matter how much you 'overstock' your tank. The labidochromis caeruleus is always classed as a more peacefull fish to and i dont really understand why, as these can be just as aggressive as any other mbuna. It all depends on what the fish is like, ive had L caeruleus in the past and many of the males seem to be less aggressive ( still the odd chasing about) but had just as many males with the temperament of a bull and will chase/attack anything in his part of the tank. Di your stock list is fine for a 75G you could add another species and add to the groups you have, but you could add the ones listed above monitor them for a while then if you decide to add more you can. Just remeber to add a good amount of fish at once because if you had 1 or 2 by themselves i guarantee you will loose them to aggression.

Speaking of other species, my husband loved the fish on the list you gave me. We may end up changing our plan altogether based on that list lol.

lol There is many more to name but i think the list would never be decided if i kept throwing different species at you . It's to hard to decide as there is a lot of nice fish to choose from . What other's did you husband take a liking to?

I cannot remember the scientific names, but pretty much all the blue ones on that list lol. My husband had a thing for blue lol

 

[KittyKat]

I have a 75g tank (which will prolly be closer to 65 after rocks)

Dimensions, remember that dimensions are more important than volume as they tell us more about the available territory Personally, I would be expecting to have only about 40-45 gallons after the rockwork.

Someone else can advise you better on the stocking, but remember to be careful when mixing species of the same colour.

Malawi MaD, I consider labs to be peaceful because one can keep them in small groups, with only a few females per male and rarely do as much as acknowledge the existence of other species (in my experience of keeping only one male per tank for anything under a few 100 gallons), compared to many other species. I'm not saying that they're not capable of fighting if they take it to their heads that they really want to, but I have never seen one of mine or one I was looking after do so when males are not mixed.

 

[Malawi MaD]

I have a 75g tank (which will prolly be closer to 65 after rocks)

Dimensions, remember that dimensions are more important than volume as they tell us more about the available territory Personally, I would be expecting to have only about 40-45 gallons after the rockwork.

Someone else can advise you better on the stocking, but remember to be careful when mixing species of the same colour.

Malawi MaD, I consider labs to be peaceful because one can keep them in small groups, with only a few females per male and rarely do as much as acknowledge the existence of other species (in my experience of keeping only one male per tank for anything under a few 100 gallons), compared to many other species. I'm not saying that they're not capable of fighting if they take it to their heads that they really want to, but I have never seen one of mine or one I was looking after do so when males are not mixed.

I know kitty i wasn't really targeting/aiming that at you (Sorry Should of worded what i said earlier a little better) because you are right in what your saying as a lot of the time labs are less aggressive. Its just i wouldn't class them as peaceful as i've had males in my tanks before that have had 2 to 3 wild males and 20+ females and they have been just as aggressive as any melanochromis species (which is saying something) then ive had labs that have been quiet as anything, breeding regular with his females and not even acknowledging the other species (like yours did). I think it Just depend's on the fish really some can be worse than others.

Thing is with malawi's especially, people always say overstock the tank, do this, do that but its not necessarily going to work for everyone just because it worked for you. Yes overstocking can help a lot but it can cause more problems to, its not just about overstocking the tank if you choose wrong species and mix the wrong ones together its going to go wrong no matter how much you 'overstock' your tank. The labidochromis caeruleus is always classed as a more peacefull fish to and i dont really understand why, as these can be just as aggressive as any other mbuna. It all depends on what the fish is like, ive had L caeruleus in the past and many of the males seem to be less aggressive ( still the odd chasing about) but had just as many males with the temperament of a bull and will chase/attack anything in his part of the tank. Di your stock list is fine for a 75G you could add another species and add to the groups you have, but you could add the ones listed above monitor them for a while then if you decide to add more you can. Just remeber to add a good amount of fish at once because if you had 1 or 2 by themselves i guarantee you will loose them to aggression.

Speaking of other species, my husband loved the fish on the list you gave me. We may end up changing our plan altogether based on that list lol.

lol There is many more to name but i think the list would never be decided if i kept throwing different species at you . It's to hard to decide as there is a lot of nice fish to choose from . What other's did you husband take a liking to?

I cannot remember the scientific names, but pretty much all the blue ones on that list lol. My husband had a thing for blue lol

lol quite a lot of mbuna are blue or have blue in the colouration, soo you could be having a lot of blue in your tank if he chooses them all .