Quick Advice Required Please: Ceramic Diffuser

[Rackie]

Hi folks, looking for a quick reply if possible.

I finally setup my pressurised C02 kit yesterday and had it running perfectly.......................or so I thought.
Anyway stats as follows for yesterday when I thought all was OK:

Tank - 180 (UK) litres - 1.25 WPG - 75% substrate planted - Installed a Dennerle Comfort Line pressurised C02 kit and running at approx 18 bubbles a minute (JBL bubble counter) - Rhinox 2000 Ceramic Diffuser - Drop checker reading green.

I also have a Solenoid setup on this kit and at 21:00hrs this shut off along with the lights and as expected the C02 had stopped (no bubbles in bubble counter).

I got up this morning and done a couple of quick checks, drop checker was green, lights on but no bubbles from diffuser? Checked the regulator and the pressure/bar reading was fine (1 bar), bubbles were entering the bubble counter and was getting approx 18 bubbles a minute, checked solenoid and this was warm but must of been working as I would not of had a reading in the bubble counter!

I checked all the pipes and no leaks found. When I squeezed the tube going into the diffuser I could see bubbles appearing under the ceramic disc but nothing coming through it. Decided to remove the diffuser and clean it as advised on AE by using 50% water and 50% bleach. Set everything backup and its been nearly 2 hours and I am still not seeing any bubbles from the diffuser but the C02 must be going somewhere as the bubble counter is running fine?

Should it take a while for the diffuser to start registering, in the manual for the Dennerle kit it mentions the supplied ladder takes approx 2 days to complete its running in period. Its odd as I was getting bubbles last night when it was first setup almost instantly???

Would really appreciate any help/advice.

 

[garuf]

Hi folks, looking for a quick reply if possible.

I finally setup my pressurised C02 kit yesterday and had it running perfectly.......................or so I thought.
Anyway stats as follows for yesterday when I thought all was OK:

Tank - 180 (UK) litres - 1.25 WPG - 75% substrate planted - Installed a Dennerle Comfort Line pressurised C02 kit and running at approx 18 bubbles a minute (JBL bubble counter) - Rhinox 2000 Ceramic Diffuser - Drop checker reading green.

I also have a Solenoid setup on this kit and at 21:00hrs this shut off along with the lights and as expected the C02 had stopped (no bubbles in bubble counter).

I got up this morning and done a couple of quick checks, drop checker was green, lights on but no bubbles from diffuser? Checked the regulator and the pressure/bar reading was fine (1 bar), bubbles were entering the bubble counter and was getting approx 18 bubbles a minute, checked solenoid and this was warm but must of been working as I would not of had a reading in the bubble counter!

I checked all the pipes and no leaks found. When I squeezed the tube going into the diffuser I could see bubbles appearing under the ceramic disc but nothing coming through it. Decided to remove the diffuser and clean it as advised on AE by using 50% water and 50% bleach. Set everything backup and its been nearly 2 hours and I am still not seeing any bubbles from the diffuser but the C02 must be going somewhere as the bubble counter is running fine?

Should it take a while for the diffuser to start registering, in the manual for the Dennerle kit it mentions the supplied ladder takes approx 2 days to complete its running in period. Its odd as I was getting bubbles last night when it was first setup almost instantly???

Would really appreciate any help/advice.

ive got the same diffuser and mine takes about half an hour before it starts bubbling although mines just as new and I've yet to set mine up properly though, I'm waiting to draw up a plan of attack on the algae front before I start running co2 and ferts again. it could just be that on the lower psi its dissolving into the water before its bubbling through it?

 

[Rob.S]

As garuf suggested, the regulator pressure might not be high enough - I run mine at around 2 bar.

Are you sure that there is no leak on the output side of the bubble counter? Put some washing up liquid on it.

 

[SuperColey1]

A couple of questions.

Are you using a needle valve?
Are you sure there are no leaks?
Are you using an NRV?

My setup has the regulator at 2 bar and then I use the needle valve to reduce this to the required level. (approx 4bps but with surface aggitation)

I also use a Rhinox 2000 and it starts bubbling within 10 seconds or so. Theres no reason other than a leak for it needing to build up pressure before starting to bubble because the pressure is maintained in the ´off´ period and therfore is released as soon as the solenoid turns on. Therfore I can only assume that a leak is releasing this pressure during the off period.

I would check things again and if possible get some proper CO2 hosing if you dont already have it rather than the silicon airline hoses that a lot of the off the shelf low end kits have.

Andy

 

[Rackie]

As garuf suggested, the regulator pressure might not be high enough - I run mine at around 2 bar.

Are you sure that there is no leak on the output side of the bubble counter? Put some washing up liquid on it.

Quite sure there are no leaks on the output side from the bubble counter to the diffuser as when I removed the end of the tube from the bubble counter water from the tank started to leak out the tube. Must of been from the pressure release.

When the tube was removed I put this into a bowl of water and blew down one end and could see no leaks. Air was coming out of the other end of the pipe as expected.

Would it be worth increasing the pressure? Not sure about this as would this not affect the level of C02 as the drop checker is still reading green?

 

[SuperColey1]

If your drop checker is reading green then CO2 must be getting into your tank unless you are using the wrong solutions and it is giving a false reading.

Get a piece of hose and with a pin put several holes in it. then submerge most of it and blow. You will not see any bubbles from the holes you made as the pressure is not there.

You need to test for leaks with everything connected and the pressure up. Get some soapy water or wahing up liquid (quite thick and smear it sound the joins from bubble counter and hose etc and see if you can see any bubbles whilst the pressure is on.

The water coming from the tank tells me you are not using an NRV (No return Valve) which is essential with a pressurised system as it will stop any water getting in the regulator and damaging it.

Also if you are using the regulator to control the flow then you will be playing with fire in regards to not overdosing and killing fish!!!!. The control on a regulator is extremely sensistive and can also loosen itself. You need a needle valve to control the outflow.

Andy

 

[Rackie]

If your drop checker is reading green then CO2 must be getting into your tank unless you are using the wrong solutions and it is giving a false reading.

Get a piece of hose and with a pin put several holes in it. then submerge most of it and blow. You will not see any bubbles from the holes you made as the pressure is not there.

You need to test for leaks with everything connected and the pressure up. Get some soapy water or wahing up liquid (quite thick and smear it sound the joins from bubble counter and hose etc and see if you can see any bubbles whilst the pressure is on.

The water coming from the tank tells me you are not using an NRV (No return Valve) which is essential with a pressurised system as it will stop any water getting in the regulator and damaging it.

Also if you are using the regulator to control the flow then you will be playing with fire in regards to not overdosing and killing fish!!!!. The control on a regulator is extremely sensistive and can also loosen itself. You need a needle valve to control the outflow.

Andy

Hi Andy, thanks for the replys and sorry for not answering your questions earlier.
The regulator does come with a needle valve and also a NRV.

I have finally sorted it out and everything is working fine now and as I suspected there were no leaks in the hoses. To fix the problem I moved the bubble counter further up the hose and onto the side of the tank.

Initialy I had fitted the bubble counter onto the side of the C02 canister so that everything was hidden away in the cabinet out of sight and also allowed me to make any adjustments with everything all in one place. For curiositys sake I thought I would disconnect the bubble counter and mount this onto the side of the tank then re-attach the hoses so that there was a shorter distance for the C02 to travel from the bubble counter to the diffuser.
Within a minute or two of re-starting the regulator I had instant bubbles

It seemed odd but for some reason the C02 was not able to travel the full length of the hose from the bubble counter when situated in the cabinet under the tank, even when I increased the bar pressure up to 2/3 , moving this further up the hose seemed to solve the problem.

I originally set up the system as follows:
Regulator
3 inch hose to solenoid
3 inch hose to NRV
3 inch hose to bubble counter
48 inch hose to diffuser.

To fix the problem I made the following adjustments:
Regulator
3 inch hose to solenoid
3 inch hose to NRV
30 inch hose to bubble counter
18 inch hose to diffuser.

This is now running at 1 bar pressure, 18 bubbles a minute.

Does this sound right as I was wondering where others situate their bubble counters.
Also, would it be worth fitting a second NRV between the bubble counter and the diffuser to avoid back pressure?

 

[Rob.S]

Hmmmm. Can't see how that has solved the problem - I have 60 inches from NRV to diffuser. Well, as long as it's working.

Incidentally, what have you got in your drop checker? Is it tank water? It's just that 18 bpm doesn't sound a lot for your tank. I'm running at 70; and I think "Supercoley", runs even more. It could be that you're getting a false reading.

 

[Rackie]

Hmmmm. Can't see how that has solved the problem - I have 60 inches from NRV to diffuser. Well, as long as it's working.

Incidentally, what have you got in your drop checker? Is it tank water? It's just that 18 bpm doesn't sound a lot for your tank. I'm running at 70; and I think "Supercoley", runs even more. It could be that you're getting a false reading.

The drop checker and solution I am using is part of the Dennerle kit, link below shows the complete kit as a seperate item:

http/www.shopsolution.nl/clients/seameuk...erleco2test.jpg

You only need to add an ampoule of solution to the test container (no tank water) and mount the checker into the tank. The instructions reccomend 10 bubbles per minute for a 100 liter tank so I am running 18 bubbles a minute (180 litre tank) and the checker is a green colour. Must be working as when I first installed it the solution was a dark blue colour.

 

[Rackie]

Just found the following link which was provided by Jimbooo when he purchased the Dennerle kit a while back. He has provided pics on how this kit is setup:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...amp;hl=dennerle

I have a similar kit with the exception of the Gas bottle, mine is a disposable and also the diffuser I am using is the Rhinox 2000, plus I have installed a solenoid which I purchased from Lunapet (EBay). The drop checker is the same.

 

[SuperColey1]

Just found the following link which was provided by Jimbooo when he purchased the Dennerle kit a while back. He has provided pics on how this kit is setup:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...amp;hl=dennerle

I have a similar kit with the exception of the Gas bottle, mine is a disposable and also the diffuser I am using is the Rhinox 2000, plus I have installed a solenoid which I purchased from Lunapet (EBay). The drop checker is the same.

My that is an old thread. lol

It may be that thinking has moved on since that thread was last added to!!! Drop checker supplied solutions have been dumped by most people for a 4dKH reference solution bought seperately from somewhere like AquaEssentials (DIY if you have very very accurate weighing and measuring equipment) which bromoblue is then added to.

I trust Jimboos comments on the kit though and it does look quite good. If you are using disposable cylinders then I buy mine from here (3 x 600g bottles for £29.00+shipping) much cheaper than buying dennerle or JBL and they have more content too.

As to the moving the bubble counter solving the problem. I think it was the taking apart and reconnecting rather than the repositioning that has solved the problem. maybe it solved a leakage/blockage.

I used the have my NRV and bubble counter in the cabinet linked to DIY yeast setup (i.e. not much pressure at all) and I got the misted spray of bubbles coming from the Rhinox. I now have them on the back of the tank purely because with the cylinder and solenoid then they would be horizontal if in the cabinet. I still get the same amount of mist but now more consistent which is the point of pressurised after all.

With regard to bpm this is a tricky area:

Different Bubble counters produce differnt size bubbles and should be used as a guide only. my 240bpm may be equal to your 18bpm. Its there so if it suddently reduces or increase I can see there is a problem.

Different diffusors are more efficient than others and therefore 240bpm on a ladder may be equal to your 18bpm on your Rhinox (I use the Rhinox so I doubt this is the difference)

Circulation plays a large part in this too as its the circulation that ´transports´ the CO2 around the tank.

Surface Agitation will releas some CO2 and I do have surface agitation because my tank is 20" tall therefore I try to keep the surface moving. (pre surface agitation I was at between 2 and 3 bps)

Finally the all important factor - Plant uptake - If you are high light, dosing full EI then the plants have everything they need to grow very fast and therefore will use the CO2 quicker. If you are low light with a premade or even no fertiliser then the plants will use the CO2 slower)

All in all I would ask Jimboo if he thinks the drop checker is accurate and if he now uses a supplied or DIY 4dKH solution in his.

The colour in my avatar may look green bu to me is too close to blue. I tend to keep mine at a limeade colour but this is very close to the urine colour which is overload and killed my fishload when I first went pressurised.

Hope I dont sound too sharp above. Its just Im playing poker and typing in between hands so I am straight to the point. lol

Andy

 

[jimbooo]

Hi There, i'm glad my old post is still of some use. Sorry to be brief but it's 3am and i'm knackered..

i still use the same kit with a fire extinguisher bottle in place of the 500g dennerle and funnily enough i have bought that diffuser from AE, should arrive tomorrow. i will let you know how i get on with it tomorrow night. I dont use the drop checker any more as i kept forgetting to change the solution. i do think it gives a good rough guide as to co2 content but only in a "too much/OK/not enough" way.

sorry to be boring but i think you have a leak. i had trouble setting up initially and it was down to a leak on the bubble counter seal. i stopped using it and all was fine but i did have a flipper diffuser so it wasn't necessary.

i'll get back to you tomorrow.
Night...

 

[Rackie]

sorry to be boring but i think you have a leak. i had trouble setting up initially and it was down to a leak on the bubble counter seal. i stopped using it and all was fine but i did have a flipper diffuser so it wasn't necessary.

Thanks for the replys chaps, especially at that time of the morning

I think I might of found where the problem HAD occurred now. After reading your post jimbooo about the Bubble Counter (JBL one like yours) I re-checked mine just to make sure all was okay and when removing the lid I noticed the circular rubber seal was not positioned correctly. Once I put this back into the correct position the lid felt as though it closed alot more securely when twisting it shut.

After moving the bubble counter further up the pipe thinking it was a pressure issue the problem now seems to have been with the actual bubble counter itself in the first place

Never mind, at least I don't have to keep opening the cupboard door now to check the bubble rate

With regards to the drop checker, still running 18 bubbles a minute and getting a nice green (slightly dark) colour which on the provided chart indicates around 20 > 30 mg/l of C02.

I have four of the supplied ampoules left so once these are used up I will be ordering some 4dKH solution from AE
Just out of curiosity, I have a bottle of the standard API freshwater PH test sitting in my cupboard, would this be okay to mix with the 4kDH solution as I think it contains the required bromoblue?

SuperColey1
Where is it that you purchased your disposable cannisters from as you advised "3 x 600g bottles for £29.00+shipping", think you forgot to paste the link?

 

[SuperColey1]

http/www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Welding...elding_Gas.html

Make sure you buy CO2. You dont want CO2/Argon mix or Argon itself.

Andy

 

[Rob.S]

With regard to bpm this is a tricky area:

Different Bubble counters produce differnt size bubbles and should be used as a guide only. my 240bpm may be equal to your 18bpm. Its there so if it suddently reduces or increase I can see there is a problem.

Different diffusors are more efficient than others and therefore 240bpm on a ladder may be equal to your 18bpm on your Rhinox (I use the Rhinox so I doubt this is the difference)

Circulation plays a large part in this too as its the circulation that ´transports´ the CO2 around the tank.

Surface Agitation will releas some CO2 and I do have surface agitation because my tank is 20" tall therefore I try to keep the surface moving. (pre surface agitation I was at between 2 and 3 bps)

Finally the all important factor - Plant uptake - If you are high light, dosing full EI then the plants have everything they need to grow very fast and therefore will use the CO2 quicker. If you are low light with a premade or even no fertiliser then the plants will use the CO2 slower)


Andy

Yes, that makes sense. Wish I'd thought it through before posting