PH and driftwood

[Tttay89]

Evening!
Complete newby here. Joined a forum because of the false advice I keep getting given by aquarium shops (After failing my first tank from being told I can put a load of fish in a new tank after a few days).
I'm now running a fully cycled 120litre stocked tank with no issues after a lot of forum reading and good advice

APART FROM

my Ph has slowly been rising over the past month and has now hit 8.5. couple weeks ago I bought some driftwood, soaked it for a few days and added it to the tank. This made no change to PH, don't want to use peat moss or leaves as apparently this turns the water very brown (which I understand is good for the fish) but not a great view.

Question: I want to add more driftwood. My question is if I do soak it and remove all tannins to stop it staining my water, will it defeat the whole object of lowering my PH? Will it have no effect at all other than a decoration?

Cheers !

 

[Back in the fold]

Byron will latch onto this one in short order and then you'll have the straight lowdown. But anyway, welcome to our little world. You will get much better advice than from the money machine shops. You will learn things you didn't even think you could know about.

 

[seangee]

If your pH is rising there is something in the tank that is making it rise. The most likely cause will be your substrate or rocks in your tank. Until whatever that is has been removed no amount of wood (or anything else) is going to make any difference. In the absence of such substances a tank will naturally become more acidic over time.

There are additional barriers to lowering pH and we can get into that later but for pH to rise something has to make that happen.

 

[Tttay89]

All artificial ornaments and rocks but I'm starting to think now the substrate might be a cause now you mention it. I've had a couple people tell me the size of the gravel are quite big would this cause pH rise? I'll see if I can grab a picture of the tank see what you think

 

[seangee]

Do you have a brand or product name of the gravel you used. The size doesn't make any difference, its what its made of.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

If the pH has been going up, there is something in the tank that is buffering the pH. What ornaments and substrate are in the tank?

If you post a picture of the tank we can check it for things that might be buffering the water.

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If driftwood is no longer releasing tannins, then it normally won't affect the pH.

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What fish do you keep?
Some fish do better in water with a pH above 7.0 and some do better with a pH below 7.0.

 

[Byron]

There is another important factor in this which we have not been given, and that is the GH, KH and pH of your source water (not tank water, source tap water).

Without knowing the above data, it is impossible to say how much wood (or if any wood at all whatever amount) will affect the pH. The three parameters are connected. When we know this, and when we know more about that gravel, things should become clearer.

 

[Tttay89]

Could anyone shine a light a good way to upload photos? I try upload a file and it says too large for the server

@seangee Sounds like another rookie error then, the brand is just Pets at home and the label on the back barcode says "natural pebbles" I'll upload a photo of the bag and my tank as soon as I know how!


@Colin_T
fish I keep (which I was hoping all would adapt to the 6.8 my tap water is)
5 neon tetras
4 guppies
2 dannios
2 rummy nose
2 black widow
2 dwarf gourami
1 albino Plec
1 rainbow shark (will get a bigger tank next year)
Again was told by the shop the shark would be fine.

@Byron
The tap water here is as hard as nails
Bearing in mind I only have test strips for GHD and KHD
GHD - 330ppm
KHD - -260ppm
Ph- 6.8 - 7


Will upload photos asap

 

[seangee]

Pets @ home don't say what's in it but do not have a good reputation with fish keepers. The colour suggests it may be high in calcium. There are only 4 reviews on their site all negative. This one seems relevant

Since using this gravel and spending lots to fill 150l tank, the PH kept rising to over 8. Thinking it was the wood, took it out and still the same. The only thing that we had changed was the gravel so put some in some RO water and PH still rose higher than 8, after starting at 6.7. Not impressed what so ever as it killed many of our fish! The gravel must be limestone or chalk based, which is not stated on the bag. This is NOT suitable for fish tanks. Also goes very yellow and dirty quickly.

 

[Tttay89]

Pets @ home don't say what's in it but do not have a good reputation with fish keepers. The colour suggests it may be high in calcium. There are only 4 reviews on their site all negative. This one seems relevant

Oh great
Just as I thought I got the tank perfect!
So my only two options are to either try let fish adapt to just over 8ph with doing 10% water changes weekly that brings it down to mid 7s

Or changing the gravel.
I can see this being very stressful for the fish and a lot of interference to the substrate bacteria?
When I deep vaccum sections of the gravel SO much gunk comes up, a surprising amount considering my ammonia is always on 0, maybe that's soemthing to do with the size of the gravel and falling between the cracks.

Any advice on how to upload photos to these threads?

 

[seangee]

@Byron
The tap water here is as hard as nails
Bearing in mind I only have test strips for GHD and KHD
GHD - 330ppm
KHD - -260ppm
Ph- 6.8 - 7

Did you test hardness in the tap or in the tank? Tap is what matters here. When testing pH from the tap you should let the water stand in a glass for 24 hours before testing. Hardness can be tested immediately. Your water supplier will also publish the hardness on their website - we would need the value and unit because they all measure differently.

IMO trying to achieve a specific pH is pointless, the only important thing is that it is stable over time. As has been suggested the KH buffers any pH changes and with such a high starting point reducing your pH by adding something to the water is almost impossible. Yes you can drop it but a day later the buffer will bring it back to what it was before. These changes are very bad for fish health so its best to let it settle at its natural level.

You do need to change the substrate because this is artificially creating an unstable pH. It is also making your water even harder.

Now there is one potential issue. Apart from the guppies all of your fish are soft water fish. They will survive in the hard water but will have short lives and possibly be more prone to health issues. The same is true if you try to keep guppies in soft water. Also all of your tetras and danios need to be in bigger groups, at least 6 but ideally a lot more. Don't rush out and try to change any of this now because it is more important to get to a stable environment and understand what that environment is before advising how to continue.

Sorry its a long post and a lot to take in. I have deliberately avoided going all scientific but feel free to ask if you would like to understand the science behind it.

 

[seangee]

Or changing the gravel.
I can see this being very stressful for the fish and a lot of interference to the substrate bacteria?
When I deep vaccum sections of the gravel SO much gunk comes up, a surprising amount considering my ammonia is always on 0, maybe that's soemthing to do with the size of the gravel and falling between the cracks.

Any advice on how to upload photos to these threads?

I would change the gravel. My own preference is sand and Argos play sand works really well. Its also (ahem) dirt cheap. The downside is its quite dusty so you do have to rinse it first. This pic of my tank was taken yesterday, the sand has been in there for around 4 years Floating plants and water changes. Sand is actually easier to keep clean because the dirt sits on top rather than falling through the gaps.

There are posts on here and youtube on how to add sand to an existing tank. It is a bit of a PITA but perfectly doable.
There should be an "upload a file" button next to the post reply button. It may be that you need to make a certain number of posts before you can use it.

 

[seangee]

Oh great
So my only two options are to either try let fish adapt to just over 8ph with doing 10% water changes weekly that brings it down to mid 7s

Sorry me again - that's p@h advice innit? Most on here recommend changing 50-75% per week. Personally I do 75% (all in one go). We change water to reduce the amount of "bad stuff" in the water. If you change 10% that means you are leaving 90% of it in the tank

 

[Tttay89]

I measured from tap, GH and KH straight away
I will test all 3 again after leaving for 24 hours asap, will check water supplier also.

Ok the only reason I do only have only 5 tetras and (now only) 2 dannios is because my only focus was always about ammonia after a year of trying to battle my old tank, What is the reason for larger number of dannios etc?

I did always want to try avoid sand tbh! I got the impression it was difficult when comes to water changes etc turning the water into a cloud especially when adding it in.. I may go for a finer gravel. My only concern is getting the old stuff out without 1. Effecting bacteria 2.causing a mass whirlwind of gunk 3. Stressing the fish.
I'm thinking maybe change a section of it per week untill all of it is changed???

10% was maidenheads advice haha. But I always stuck with it as ammonia nitrite was always 0 tank looked clean and fish seemed happy.
Plus I didn't want to change the temperature of the water too much as I do only have a couple buckets and a spare heater. And a very small living room and an angry misses if it gets everywhere . Also I was thinking PH would change massively.
I will maybe up it to 20-30%

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Ok I'll get beat up on this but I use pH down (by API) to get my pH to 7. Everybody wants to do this the natural way but sometimes that is not possible.

Our city water is 1. somewhat hard and 2. very high in pH (9-10 or higher). I use ULTRA small amounts of Ph down mixed in a quart of tank water and add it carefully and slowly. Only once have I had the ph climb back to where it was (and for some reason our tap water was very hard that time) - it usually is very stable until I do a large water change which will cause the pH to hit 8 again - smaller water changes have less effect on the pH. I try to keep my pH between 7 and 7.4 and I've gotten so good with ph down I can usually get it that way with two additions (spread over 2 days). Again, it stays at that pH until I do a water change.

This won't work for everybody due to the chemistry of water hardness and free Hydrogen ion's that can make the pH creep back up but again, I've only once had that problem probably for some reason my tap water tested much harder than usual. ( we get lots of complaints about water quality in this city- so who knows what happened)

Not ONCE has ph down resulted in the death of a fish in my tanks. I think it's because I change it in small increments and dilute it with so much water. This is not a chemical where you pour a capful in the water - this is one where a few drops are needed to be diluted so the fish don't have a reaction to a massive pH change. Do it slowly and carefully.

So everybody- beat me up now for using a chemical that only addresses pH when (I know) it's more complicated than that - but for me, it works great.

BTW: my tanks are nearly all filled with different species of Gourami and Corycats. I do have 5 lovely cherry barbs and 6 Harlequin Raspdoras as well.

As far as your question about the number of danio's (or cherry barbs or Raspdoras) is that you need a fair number to make a school of fish (or a shoal depending on the species) - you also need some open space in your tank where they are free to school. That is what is natural for them - having one or two just won't cut it.