Odd Swordtail Behavior

[Antinerf]

http/youtu.be/nA7Cxm_f5ck

Above is footage of the swordtail. I apologize beforehand for my sloppy camera work. Getting to the point, I am currently rewriting as the footage above is from around a minute before he died. Didn't eat anything for four days... going to inspect the body now. I will post water parameters in a sec after I remove the body.

Notes:
-Birth in the tank four days ago
-Added anacharis 2 days ago
-4 fry in nursery
-he may have eaten a fry
-3 other fish in the tank aside from the fry and dead fish

Thank you,
Antinerf

 

[Antinerf]

So these are my results from the water testing:

-Nitrates and nitrites were both pretty much at zero

-Ammonia was still under .25 ppm, it normally doesn't get this high but I just got 4 more fish in the tank so...

-And lastly pH was well over 8, maybe 8.4. It skyrocketed from the last time when I recently tested it. However I did not see tank-wide effects, just this one fish... I just added pH down so that combined with water changes should start to help. Note that I have not lost any fish living in the nursery either as of yet.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

A couple of things... I don't have a lot of time, so I'll skip the formalities and just stick to the details.
 
 
 
First, sorry for your loss.
 
 
Second, a pH of 8.0-8.4 is perfectly suitable for swordtails, although its ever so slightly high.  
 
 
Third, products like pH down and pH up are actually less help than they are a hurt.  Having a stable pH is far more important than having a specific pH value.  

 

[Antinerf]

Thank you... I tried looking inside the mouth once I removed it but I can't see anything, not even with a light. Gills seem awfully inflamed. He continually opened and closed his mouth whether moving or not. It just doesn't add up...
And one last question (sorry): Should I frequently change the tank water for my fry?

 

[RyanTheFishGuy64]

Thank you... I tried looking inside the mouth once I removed it but I can't see anything, not even with a light. Gills seem awfully inflamed. He continually opened and closed his mouth whether moving or not. It just doesn't add up...
And one last question (sorry): Should I frequently change the tank water for my fry?

Weekly 25% water changes should be a routine, even with the fry

 

[Antinerf]

Thank you... I tried looking inside the mouth once I removed it but I can't see anything, not even with a light. Gills seem awfully inflamed. He continually opened and closed his mouth whether moving or not. It just doesn't add up...
And one last question (sorry): Should I frequently change the tank water for my fry?

Weekly 25% water changes should be a routine, even with the fry

Thank you, I'll make sure to step up the water changes. I was just uncertain as to whether things such as replacing the filter cartridge and weekly water changes would disturb the fry.

 

[Byron]

Diagnosing issues like this are difficult, as so many things can cause them, including genetic and injury in the past.  Provided other fish are normal, I wouldn't worry over the loss of this one.  Fish die; I have several hundred in my tanks and I lose a fish now and then, but provided it is not obviously related directly to something, or spreads, I don't worry.
 
Do regular water changes, 1/3 to 1/2 the tank volume weekly at a minimum; I apply this to any and all aquaria containing live fish.  As the fry are in this tank (in the net), I wouldn't do more, but I would let the fry out as soon as it seems safe they won't be eaten; the net is stressful as they grow.  Floating plants, thick, help with this.
 
Now to the chemicals...do not use pH adjusting products in tanks with fish, ever.  First, they usually will not work [reason below], and second, all chemicals affect fish no matter what they are, so the fewer the better.  As JD mentioned, a high pH is not a problem for livebearers, provided it is relatively stable.  I would want to know your GH and KH too, which you can ascertain from your water supply folks (check their website).
 
I'll briefly explain about pH.  This is closely connected to the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) of the source water.  The latter in particular (KH) acts to "buffer" or keep the pH stable, and chemicals to adjust the pH may do so immediately, but the KH will return the pH within 12-24 hours to where it was.  This continues until the buffering capacity is extinguished (this depends upon the level of the KH) and then the pH could crash.  The latter is deadly, and the fluctuating pH is very hard on fish.  The fish must stabilize the pH of its blood to roughly equal the pH of the water it lives in, so this back and forth takes a serious toll on the fish's system, energy and the stress weakens the immune system.
 
I'm not saying the pH adjuster caused this, but it may have been a contributing factor, or it may not; it would however have further weakened the fish and that hasn't helped, whatever the issue may be.
 
While I was typing this, others posted, and you have mentioned changing the filter cartridge.  Filters should be cleaned as needed to keep the water flow good.  Cleaning means rinsing all the media.  Replacement of the pads/floss/foam/sponge/media is usually not necessary for some time; if the floss/sponge-type media begins to shrink or fall apart so water can get around it, then it is time to replace it as it is no longer serving its purpose.
 
Hope this helps, feel free to ask further.
 
Byron.

 

[Antinerf]

Diagnosing issues like this are difficult, as so many things can cause them, including genetic and injury in the past.  Provided other fish are normal, I wouldn't worry over the loss of this one.  Fish die; I have several hundred in my tanks and I lose a fish now and then, but provided it is not obviously related directly to something, or spreads, I don't worry.
 
Do regular water changes, 1/3 to 1/2 the tank volume weekly at a minimum; I apply this to any and all aquaria containing live fish.  As the fry are in this tank (in the net), I wouldn't do more, but I would let the fry out as soon as it seems safe they won't be eaten; the net is stressful as they grow.  Floating plants, thick, help with this.
 
Now to the chemicals...do not use pH adjusting products in tanks with fish, ever.  First, they usually will not work [reason below], and second, all chemicals affect fish no matter what they are, so the fewer the better.  As JD mentioned, a high pH is not a problem for livebearers, provided it is relatively stable.  I would want to know your GH and KH too, which you can ascertain from your water supply folks (check their website).
 
I'll briefly explain about pH.  This is closely connected to the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) of the source water.  The latter in particular (KH) acts to "buffer" or keep the pH stable, and chemicals to adjust the pH may do so immediately, but the KH will return the pH within 12-24 hours to where it was.  This continues until the buffering capacity is extinguished (this depends upon the level of the KH) and then the pH could crash.  The latter is deadly, and the fluctuating pH is very hard on fish.  The fish must stabilize the pH of its blood to roughly equal the pH of the water it lives in, so this back and forth takes a serious toll on the fish's system, energy and the stress weakens the immune system.
 
I'm not saying the pH adjuster caused this, but it may have been a contributing factor, or it may not; it would however have further weakened the fish and that hasn't helped, whatever the issue may be.
 
While I was typing this, others posted, and you have mentioned changing the filter cartridge.  Filters should be cleaned as needed to keep the water flow good.  Cleaning means rinsing all the media.  Replacement of the pads/floss/foam/sponge/media is usually not necessary for some time; if the floss/sponge-type media begins to shrink or fall apart so water can get around it, then it is time to replace it as it is no longer serving its purpose.
 
Hope this helps, feel free to ask further.
 
Byron.

Thank you for the info! It looks like I have to step up the water changes. A couple things I should mention: First, in the video, the only living plant is the anacharis in the nursery tank (however, roots are exposed so fish outside the netted zone can eat the roots- not sure if this is helpful). Another thing that I forgot to mention is that I added the pH down after the fish died, so it could not have been a factor... and additionally, the water in my tank has a very high tendency to bounce back in terms of pH, I don't know what I was thinking putting it in there (fortunately I only put a small dose),

 

[Byron]

Thank you for the info! It looks like I have to step up the water changes. A couple things I should mention: First, in the video, the only living plant is the anacharis in the nursery tank (however, roots are exposed so fish outside the netted zone can eat the roots- not sure if this is helpful). Another thing that I forgot to mention is that I added the pH down after the fish died, so it could not have been a factor... and additionally, the water in my tank has a very high tendency to bounce back in terms of pH, I don't know what I was thinking putting it in there (fortunately I only put a small dose),
 

 
The idea behind floating plants in the main tank is to provide shelter for fry.  A lot of fry will survive predation on their own if they have suitable cover, and floating plants are best here.  Lots of live microscopic food for the fry also exists within the live plants.  Something to consider for the future.
 
We should explore this pH issue more.  I just watched the video again, and while I certainly cannot diagnose the cause, I'd guess it was a while back.  But on the pH, can you post the variation numbers?  And what is the pH of your tap water?  Two things to keep in mind with pH.  First, when testing tap water, you have to out-gas the CO2 or the test may not be accurate, as CO2 lowers pH by adding carbonic acid to the water.  Letting a glass of tap water sit 24 hours is one way, or a quicker is to briskly shake a bit of water in a covered jar for several minutes before testing.  Tank water does not require this.  Second point is to always test tank pH at the same time of day.  There is a natural fluctuation of pH in all aquaria, as in nature, and to be sure you are seeing what is actually happening, if anything, you need to test the tank water at the same time of day, within a couple hours anyway.  It will usually be lower in the morning, and higher in the evening, for example, perhaps by a few decimal points.
 
When we have the numbers in a day or two, it will be easier to ascertain any issues.  And perhaps you could post the GH and KH too by then.
 
Byron.

 

[Antinerf]

Gathering data for a day or two shouldn't be a problem... however unfortunately I do not know the general hardness or KH of the water- I simply know that it is high since it is difficult to change the pH of the tank.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Gathering data for a day or two shouldn't be a problem... however unfortunately I do not know the general hardness or KH of the water- I simply know that it is high since it is difficult to change the pH of the tank.

 
 
You can take a sample to the LFS and ask them to test it for you.

 

[Antinerf]

Lastly, now all of my adult fish are swimming against the glass... my tank better not get wiped in a single night. Especially the other male... it seems like he's visiting the same places that the other fish did before he died. I guess I can't blame him- they were my first set of fish for over a year. Additionally, all of the fish are acting a little hyper and jumpy...

 

[Byron]

I wasn't here yesterday to follow up with this...what is the situation today?

 

[Antinerf]

Sorry for the late reply, but after testing my pH a couple times a day (school), I found that it generally doesn't vary much, only like .2 (towards 8.2) but earlier tests (as in 5 AM but I don't have the time before school) may increase that range. Haven't gotten a chance to test the water at a LFS yet. Also could please anyone tell me if the following nursery setup is okay? Idk what to do with the anacharis...

http/youtu.be/HVj6FDf25nM

 

[Byron]

That's fine; I would just let the anacharis float as you are here.  Those fry will soon be large enough to enter the main tank, and you can unbundle the anacharis then and let the strands float freely so the fry can hide among them and feel more secure.
 
The pH does not sound a problem.  I mentioned the diurnal fluctuation previously, and will explain a bit now.  During darkness, CO2 builds up in an aquarium (as in nature) due to respiration of fish, plants and bacteria, but also primarily the breakdown of organics in the substrate and elsewhere (in the filter too of course).  This acidifies the water so the pH will lower.  In bright light, the plants use up the CO2 and the pH will rise.  The GH and KH can also be affected by this, though minimally in most cases.  A pH fluctuation of several decimal point, say from 7.2 to 7.8, is not problematic at all.  Fish are able to deal with this, it is natural, and it occurs over a relatively long period (24 hours).
 
Byron.