Nitrite & Ph Problems

[ranjohns]

Day 4 with Fish

Added 2 Otocinclus (catfish) last night.

This morning before feeding:
nitrites 0
ammonia 0
nitrAtes 40ppm
pH 7.6

Green water is clearing; practically gone.

Ranjohns

 

[waterdrop]

I think you should be fine and the feedback looks that way so far. The populations in the penguin were much bigger than needed for 6 neons and probably started populating the new filter very quickly. I doubt you are going to see any spikes from this sort of fish load. Its good that you are testing twice a day though, as the neons will do better in nice pristine water.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ranjohns]

Hi WD, water specs are v. good; but, we lost 1 tetra today. I found it caught against the upper intake valve of the Penguin filter. Hard to tell what happened. The other tetras and octo seem fine. Everyone is enjoying watching the fish go about the tank.

12.5 hours after feeding the fish:
nitrites 0
ammonia 0
water temp 78.3

Ranjohns

 

[waterdrop]

Extremely hard not to lose a neon every now and then, regardless, they are just sometimes delicate on an individual by individual basis. Glad you are enjoying having them in there. If you get some attrition, keep your shoal size up so that they won't start getting nippy with each other.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ranjohns]

WD, thanks for your reply. Today, the water conditions are very good. The "green" water is about gone. I've continued to dose ferts as listed below. I want to fill in a few spots; so, I'll continue to fert and do a weekly 50% water change to clear out the water column and prevent an overload. Although, with the somewhat low amounts of ferts added, I don't expect to have too much macro or micro ferts. Once all plants have grown to desired amount, I will reduce ferts to once every week or 2 and water changes to every 6 to 8 weeks. At least that the plan.

10.5 hours after feeding the fish, nitrites are 0. Temp is 79.8. Lights are on for 9 hours.

Ranjohns

 

[fatheadminnow]

You should still do a weekly water change of at least 10%.

The new water you will be adding has trace minerals that are beneficial to the fish.

Also, water conditioners also have trace minerals that are beneficial to the fish, and if you do a water change every 6-8 weeks, well all of those trace minerals are going to b e used up, your NitrAte is probably going to be very high even if you have a lot of plants in the tank, and your fish are not going to be doing so well.

In the wild, there is always fresh water entering the rivers, ponds and lakes, so these trace minerals that are important in our tanks, are in abundance in the wild. And the fish are used to that and need that.

Also, you probably do not need to do 50% water changes every week right now in fear of over-dosing in ferts.

The point of a water change is to reduce nitrates and replenish trace minerals, not to take out ferts.

-FHM

 

[waterdrop]

I do 50% weekly water changes. In my 28g that works out to a nice amount of time for a thorough gravel clean, plus, in my case it brings my KH/pH up some. I then re-dose ferts. I apply ferts on a daily basis and the weekly water change does indeed reset any excess of this. Water changes are one of keys to a well-maintained tank in my opinion.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ranjohns]

Day 6 with fish

For the time being I will continue to dose ferts daily and to do water changes 1/week. I use an old water hose to siphon out the water so 50% won't take much longer than 10%.

Water conditions are excellent. Nitrites are 0 10 hours after feeding fish and 5 hours after adding 3 neon tetras - one to replace the one that died and 2 more to round out the community. The otos are working hard.

Ranjohns

 

[fatheadminnow]

I think you can safely say that you have a cycled tank, at least for you current stock.

*watch, huge nitrite spike* LOL...Just kidding, I think you did really well this whole time ranjohns!

-FHM

 

[ranjohns]

FHM, thanks for your advice along the way. Ranjohns

 

[waterdrop]

Nice info to see how well this tank took to light stocking despite still showing nitrites at 12 hours. This will reinforce our confidence in this in the future. Also hope the eheim is going well?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ranjohns]

Nice info to see how well this tank took to light stocking despite still showing nitrites at 12 hours. This will reinforce our confidence in this in the future. Also hope the eheim is going well?

~~waterdrop~~

Waterdrop, nice to hear from you again. Buying the Eheim 2026 was a good investment. I've had it running side-by-side with the Penguin for 13 days. I'll take what I think is a conservative approach and continue this setup for another week or 2. Once I've pulled the Penguin out of the tank I've thought about free floating the bio wheels in the tank for a week or so. What are your thoughts about this? How long would you leave the Penguin running in the tank?

Two questions I'm left with after the fishless cycle we orchestrated are:
1. how does a planted tank influence a fishless cycle?
2. can a fishless cycle be completed in a fully-planted tank?

What are the lessons learned from the cycle we orchestrated?

I don't have enough experience to answer the first. As to the 2nd question, if the answer is yes, then perhaps what hindered the growth of the 2nd colony was
1. a too-rigorous and/or ill-timed cleaning of the Penguins filter inserts (not the bio wheels).
2. a batch of non-aquatic plants before removing them on day 47.
3. the 2,500+ crushed snail shells I left in the tank from day 33 through ~ day 85.
4. Nr 3 plus dosing ammonia to 5ppm untill day 71; I reduced dosing to 4ppm on day 72 through day 103.
5. not checking pH more frequently. I checked it on day 38, 49 and day 60 (7.2, 7.2 and 7.6 respectivley). I recorded my first pH crash on day 63. I may have missed others.
6. piggybacking other threads until establishing my own thread on my 63rd day. Until then I followed 190MPH's cycle and posted a few times there.

On the other hand, is it fair to say that a fishless cycle is best done in an unplanted tank? Perhaps we would have completed the cycle more quickly had I not planted the tank so fully or had not planted at all. At the end of the day everyone here benefited some from practicing patience and being attentive to bacteria & its food, algae, water and light. A better return than the stock market, don't you think? And, the fish eventually arrived.

I would like to hear from you about the Penguin - Eheim questions I have.

Thanks for your advice and guidance through these last months.

My son has been after me to add emoticons to my posts. To honor his requests here are a few:



Ranjohns

 

[fatheadminnow]

Two questions I'm left with after the fishless cycle we orchestrated are:
1. how does a planted tank influence a fishless cycle?
2. can a fishless cycle be completed in a fully-planted tank?

1. Plants will actually use Ammonia and NitrAte as a source of nutrients.

2. Yes, plants or no plants, a fishless cycle can be completed.

-FHM

 

[ranjohns]

Two questions I'm left with after the fishless cycle we orchestrated are:
1. how does a planted tank influence a fishless cycle?
2. can a fishless cycle be completed in a fully-planted tank?

1. Plants will actually use Ammonia and NitrAte as a source of nutrients.

2. Yes, plants or no plants, a fishless cycle can be completed.

-FHM

FHM, thanks for helping me clarify my thinking. What I should have asked was, other than using ammonia as a food source, is it possible for a planted tank to interrupt a fishless cycle? By your 2nd point, I guess you mean, no. At the bottom of all of this, I am looking for reasons my cycle never ended.

Thanks, Randy

 

[waterdrop]

Nice info to see how well this tank took to light stocking despite still showing nitrites at 12 hours. This will reinforce our confidence in this in the future. Also hope the eheim is going well?

~~waterdrop~~

Waterdrop, nice to hear from you again. Buying the Eheim 2026 was a good investment. I've had it running side-by-side with the Penguin for 13 days. I'll take what I think is a conservative approach and continue this setup for another week or 2. Once I've pulled the Penguin out of the tank I've thought about free floating the bio wheels in the tank for a week or so. What are your thoughts about this? How long would you leave the Penguin running in the tank?

Two questions I'm left with after the fishless cycle we orchestrated are:
1. how does a planted tank influence a fishless cycle?
2. can a fishless cycle be completed in a fully-planted tank?

What are the lessons learned from the cycle we orchestrated?

I don't have enough experience to answer the first. As to the 2nd question, if the answer is yes, then perhaps what hindered the growth of the 2nd colony was
1. a too-rigorous and/or ill-timed cleaning of the Penguins filter inserts (not the bio wheels).
2. a batch of non-aquatic plants before removing them on day 47.
3. the 2,500+ crushed snail shells I left in the tank from day 33 through ~ day 85.
4. Nr 3 plus dosing ammonia to 5ppm untill day 71; I reduced dosing to 4ppm on day 72 through day 103.
5. not checking pH more frequently. I checked it on day 38, 49 and day 60 (7.2, 7.2 and 7.6 respectivley). I recorded my first pH crash on day 63. I may have missed others.
6. piggybacking other threads until establishing my own thread on my 63rd day. Until then I followed 190MPH's cycle and posted a few times there.

On the other hand, is it fair to say that a fishless cycle is best done in an unplanted tank? Perhaps we would have completed the cycle more quickly had I not planted the tank so fully or had not planted at all. At the end of the day everyone here benefited some from practicing patience and being attentive to bacteria & its food, algae, water and light. A better return than the stock market, don't you think? And, the fish eventually arrived.

I would like to hear from you about the Penguin - Eheim questions I have.

Thanks for your advice and guidance through these last months.

My son has been after me to add emoticons to my posts. To honor his requests here are a few:



Ranjohns

The only way to test whether the eheim is ready to take over completely is to move the penguin media completely out to some holding water and let the eheim run by itself for a few days with you testing. That's what I'd do after the eheim has had a month or more of overlap. I'd keep the penquin media in reserve by feeding it a little ammonia in a bucket, just as if it were a little fishless cycle going on. Probably you will find the eheim will have fully cycled and can carry the load but it may take some days to fully figure that out.

I applaud your efforts to be systematic about figuring out how your fishless cycle might help us add some bits of info to our knowledge. Your cycle is an example I've seen a number of times of how its possible for each individual situation to have enough unusual variables that it defies easy explanation. That very list you made pretty much nixes us ever getting it figured out. I remember when Hovanec told me that he thought greater than 2x dechlor caused the N-Bacs to slow down their growth.. it shook me up a little realizing that all sorts of little details really could have an effect and there's nobody out there experimenting to find out. Even the species of these bacteria had been wrong in people's minds for decades.

I -do- think that heavily planted tanks can greatly slow down a cycle. Planted tank enthusiasts who are fish-in cycling don't care because it feels as if the life of the tank has already started, but people with fishless cycles will really feel it. Even thought plants only typically really absorb somewhat smaller amounts of ammonia and nitrate than nitrifying filters do, I still feel that there is something about planting heavily that just seems to disrupt a speedy fishless cycle.

In fact, sometimes I almost find myself defining a sort of bare-bones cycle in my head as perhaps being best in the end. A bare tank, not even any substrate. Just heat and filter and ammonia with the tank blacked out with a double layer of black plastic cut to fit all over it. And of course mature media directly in the filter and/or mature filters cleaned out into the new tank water if at all possible.

Anyway, you've about made it through all of it and are coming out the other end. You will probably be like me and eventually realize that now all the maintenance and water issues become much more boring and the fishless cycling will eventually start to seem like it was a very short time. My fishless cycle was just as crazy as yours but with an entirely different list of things that to me seemed difficult and might have "explained" things. Our tank broke in the middle of it and nearly doubled the whole effort! I'm sure I have not even remembered all your questions up there...

~~waterdrop~~