Neons acting weird

mdulaney

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Brought home one blue dwarf gourami last week along with 24 neon tetras after releasing them about 16 of them gathered on the bottom near the Rock cave in that picture and that's where they stayed the next morning I got up I didn't see any of them I didn't worry about it I gave it a couple days still didn't see none I thought well I guess we'll give it another day yesterday I checked my water and my ammonia had spiked so I assumed my neons died or at least some of them did so I removed all the plant and the decor other than the live stuff and there was 10 dead clean that up I done a 50% water change the water parameters went back to normal and today there are a few of the neons hanging out on that black slate Rock but they're not doing nothing they're just hanging out on the black slate Rock I don't understand what is going on anybody have any suggestions
 

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CaptainBarnicles

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Zooming in I can see a few fish that I can't identify, so one would like to assume that your tank was cycled and capable of dealing with the increasing bioload before adding the new fish?
 

CaptainBarnicles

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Just seen your other post 👍🏻

Strange one...maybe if you post your test readings someone may be able to find a clue to help you out
 
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mdulaney

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Just to understand your situation...
You have an empty tank and you put 25 fish in it.
Ten neons died.

Have I got that right?
No tank had been set up for 2 mths, already had 4 Cory cats and 6 skirt tetras. They had been in the tank for 3 weeks. I check my water daily. Been good for a mth, yes I do bi-weekly water changes regardless of results.
Then last week I added the 25 fish and as of today 12 have died. All neons.
 
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mdulaney

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Zooming in I can see a few fish that I can't identify, so one would like to assume that your tank was cycled and capable of dealing with the increasing bioload before adding the new fish?
Yes it has been up 2 mths, Plus I used Fritz 7, and I put 8 skirt tetra, 4 blk 4 white, I'm down to 3 each. And it had been that way for 3 weeks, also had 4 Cory cats that has been doing great. I check water all the time it's has been good, I do water changes bi-weekly regardless. I lost 2 more neons this morning
 

Myraan

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You are certainly not overstocked, though the tank is relatively young, so maybe slower slocking was needed. I suppose neons can be weak in general and have disease issues - but that would be slow attrition (perhaps the reason why neons sell well in the shops), not 10 overnight. And you can't really put that many down to "just the odd death that happens" either.

Maybe the LFS had just had them delivered and would normally expect a 50% die off after stressful shipping that the buyer usually won't see. Though I expect they "quarantine" a day or two at least even if if just to avoid the customer seeing a tank full of dead fish.
 

Byron

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I concur with others and won't speculate. But you should do more frequent water changes, one each week is basic, and provided parameters (these are GH, pH and temperature) between tap water and tank water are reasonably the same, you can change 50-70% of the tank volume at each weekly W/C.

Something to be on the lookout for...Skirt Tetras tend to fin nip sedate fish like gourami. And neons can be targeted by gourami and skirts. You may not see physical interaction, but the issue is still there.
 
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mdulaney

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You are certainly not overstocked, though the tank is relatively young, so maybe slower slocking was needed. I suppose neons can be weak in general and have disease issues - but that would be slow attrition (perhaps the reason why neons sell well in the shops), not 10 overnight. And you can't really put that many down to "just the odd death that happens" either.

Maybe the LFS had just had them delivered and would normally expect a 50% die off after stressful shipping that the buyer usually won't see. Though I expect they "quarantine" a day or two at least even if if just to avoid the customer seeing a tank full of dead fish.
I don't really know if it was 10 overnight? I gave them 3 or 4 days to get used to their new surroundings. In that 3 or 4 days I didn't see a single one. But I was still doing my daily water parameter checks and they were fine until it wasn't and that's when I found them dead I'd say total span from when I got them to when I found them was probably six or seven days. The fish store I got them from had just got them in they were still in the bag the shipping bag I bought them straight out of that bag and I never thought I guess that could have been the issue because all the other fish are doing fine. Granted I did lose 2 of the skirt tetras, but the other six are doing great. And when I put the skirt tetras in there the tank had only been up a month.
I guess I should just be glad that the rest of the fish are doing great and get over it, it just bugs me.
 
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mdulaney

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I concur with others and won't speculate. But you should do more frequent water changes, one each week is basic, and provided parameters (these are GH, pH and temperature) between tap water and tank water are reasonably the same, you can change 50-70% of the tank volume at each weekly W/C.

Something to be on the lookout for...Skirt Tetras tend to fin nip sedate fish like gourami. And neons can be targeted by gourami and skirts. You may not see physical interaction, but the issue is still there.
Did not know that about the tetris or the gourami for that matter maybe I should put my neons in with my betta you think that would work better I still have six left. But my beta is only in a 5 gallon planted tank. The plants are still very young. Started that tank with plastic decided to go natural. I have sponge filter in that tank too. That tank has been set up for 5 months one month with plants.
 

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Did not know that about the tetris or the gourami for that matter maybe I should put my neons in with my betta you think that would work better I still have six left. But my beta is only in a 5 gallon planted tank. The plants are still very young. Started that tank with plastic decided to go natural. I have sponge filter in that tank too. That tank has been set up for 5 months one month with plants.

No, a male Betta should not be combined with neons, or anything else for that matter. Many years ago my Betta easily ate my neons, before I learned that Bettas are not community fish.
 
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mdulaney

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I don't mean to argue and I understand your point but before I read your answer I done some research and there are all kinds of people out there that have betas in with other community fish including neons they do say some betas won't work just because they have more aggression than other betas but they're all referring to males kg tropics and oh I forgot what the other one was they have several community tanks that has a beta in it just if you want to go check it out.
And I forgot who but somebody asked for my water test results so I'm attaching that.
 

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Byron

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I don't mean to argue and I understand your point but before I read your answer I done some research and there are all kinds of people out there that have betas in with other community fish including neons they do say some betas won't work just because they have more aggression than other betas but they're all referring to males kg tropics and oh I forgot what the other one was they have several community tanks that has a beta in it just if you want to go check it out.

This is worth discussing as there is a lot of misinformation on fish. You can never take what you find--especially from a commercial site like KG Tropicals who are interested in making money--as being accurate unless you know the individuals running/posting the info and they are knowledgeable. I deal in scintific evidence, not opinions, whether mine or anyone else's. My opinion is no better than anyones', except when it is scientific fact and not opinion. Here's the science:

Betta splendens is a solitary fish

Betta splendens seems to live solitary in its natural habitat which is still and sluggish waters, including rice paddies, swamps, roadside ditches, streams and ponds. Such an environment is not conducive to fish that require oxygenated waters so one can expect few if any non-anabantid species to live in such habitats. During the dry season, most bettas are able to bury themselves in the bottom of their dried up habitat. There, they can live in moist cavities until water once again fills the depression during a rainy period. The fish can survive even if thick, clay mud is all that is left of the water. They do not survive total drying out of the bottom (Vierke 1988). There are very few fish species, and none that are found in the same habitats, that can manage life in such conditions, which is further evidence that the B. splendens is most likely a solitary species.

All anabantids are territorial; male bettas instinctively fight each other in defending their territory. Selective breeding over many years has produced fish with a heightened sense of territory defense, which explains the common name of Siamese Fighting Fish. Fish fights for money is a "sport," if you want to use the term for such animal cruelty. This means the bettas we see in stores have an even greater propensity to literally kill each other given the chance. For a fish that instinctively lives alone, and believes it must defend its territory to survive--both traits that are in the genetic blueprint (DNA) for this species--this aggressiveness is likely to extend to any fish that dares enter the betta's territory, which in most cases will be the tank space. And forcing the fish to "live" under such conditions is frankly inhumane.

Individual fish within a species do not always adhere to the "norm" for the species; this is true of all animals, including humans. But with fish, responsible aquarists should research the fish's behaviours, traits, and requirements, and then aim to provide accordingly. "Expectations" are as I said above programmed into the species' DNA, and we are not going to change them just because we may want to have a betta in the tank with "x" fish species. Sometimes the betta seems to co-operate with our experiment, but in many of these situations it may not last for long, eventually if not immediately. Fish that do succumb are likely being severely stressed, unseen to the aquarist until it is too late.

If the betta does not first attack the intruders, the intruders may go after the betta. It is a two-way street, and in either situation it is the betta that loses in the end. Severe stress causing increased aggression, or conversely severe withdrawal from being targeted by the other fish. And physical aggression is not the only concern; fish release pheromones and allomones, chemical communication signals that other fish read, and these can cause stress and promote aggression that will in time weaken the fish to the point of death. There is no reason to risk the fish in one's attempt to prove scientific understanding wrong.

References:

Betta splendens profile on Seriously Fish.com

Hargrove, M. (1999), The Betta: an Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Fish, Howell Book House.

Kottelat, M. (2013) "The fishes of the inland waters of southeast Asia: a catalogue and core bibliography of the fishes known to occur in freshwaters, mangroves and estuaries," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology Supplement No. 27: 1-663.

Tan, H. H. and P. K. L. Ng (2005), "The fighting fishes (Teleostei: Osphronemidae: genus Betta) of Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology, Supplement No. 13, pp. 43-99.

Tan, H. H. and P. K. L. Ng (2005), "The labyrinth fishes (Teleostei: Anabanatoidei, Channoidei) of Sumatra, Indonesia," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology, Supplement No. 13, pp. 115-138.

Vierke, J. (1988), Bettas, Gouramis, and Other Anabantoids, T.F.H. Publication, Inc.
 

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