Is this fish golden(Japanese tiger)?

[xipo817]

I bought these fish as fullblack.
But the former has much lighter color.
Is the above fish golden?

 

[emeraldking]

I bought these fish as fullblack.
But the former has much lighter color.
Is the above fish golden?
View attachment 152116View attachment 152117

The bottom picture shows a full moscow black female. The upper one shows a pink based moscow female. If it was golden, it has to be gold also on the caudal penducle. But on this specific female, it's lighter. Pink females are also used in moscow set ups.

 

[xipo817]

Oh really!
You mean pink without nigrocaudatus?
I will send you retaken photos of the strain(female and male).

https://item.rakuten.co.jp/pet-kazoku/10009423/

When I took the photo I came to realize that the fish in this link has similar red spot like the male above.And the dorsal whitish color is very similar.
Does that mean adding pink gene on the fish below makes fish above?
I have never kept pink related guppies before, so I don't know well about it.
If you knew I hope you could explain me.

 

[emeraldking]

Pink is also used in dwarf panda guppies, Pingu (pink and yellow bumblebee guppies) and moscow purple. But sometimes also in moscow black and moscow blue.
But the pink gene used in dwarf panda guppies is a different pink gene. For this specific pink gene in dwarf panda guppies, is connected to a dwarf growth gene. As long as the females (with a pink gene) have black finnage (and preferably also a black saddle), the male offspring of moscow male x pink female (with pink gene) will look the same as a msocow male x moscow female. Note: Pink females with black finnage do carry the moscow gene as well.

Nigrocaudatus is a dark (almost black) base color on a body. Doesn't have to be present in the finnage (but most will). If a guppy specimen is born with a grey based color and will turn dark afterwards, it's no nigrocaudatus. And we've got two nigrocaudatus genes. One that will result in a total dark guppy or just on the back part of the body and stops at the shoulder part. Also known as Nigrodaudatus1 and Nigrocaudatus2.

 

[xipo817]

I didn't know that pink gene is used to make so callded fullblack strain( this strain is not so "fullblack").

I have some question still.
I would appreciate it if you could answer these.
The fish below is much darker.
Is it ok to assume that this fish has no pink gene?
In philip shaddock's pdf(http://www.petbh.com.br/guppy/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Guppy-Color-Strains_Philip-Shaddock-1.pdf) it is said that fullblack has autosomal homo midnight gene and Y linked moscow gene.
Is all the black color of this female is due to the autosomal midnight gene?
Or the fin black color is determined by some additional blackfin gene on sex chromosome?
I want to make midnight firetail (whose body is black and fin is red) by crossing this strain and full red strain, so I want to know how the black fin color is determined( I want to know if genetic crossover is needed to make the strain).
Sorry for asking you many questions.
If you feel tired of aswering, it is totally okay to ignore my questions.

 

[emeraldking]

I didn't know that pink gene is used to make so callded fullblack strain( this strain is not so "fullblack").

I have some question still.
I would appreciate it if you could answer these.
The fish below is much darker.
Is it ok to assume that this fish has no pink gene?
In philip shaddock's pdf(http://www.petbh.com.br/guppy/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Guppy-Color-Strains_Philip-Shaddock-1.pdf) it is said that fullblack has autosomal homo midnight gene and Y linked moscow gene.
Is all the black color of this female is due to the autosomal midnight gene?
Or the fin black color is determined by some additional blackfin gene on sex chromosome?
I want to make midnight firetail (whose body is black and fin is red) by crossing this strain and full red strain, so I want to know how the black fin color is determined( I want to know if genetic crossover is needed to make the strain).
Sorry for asking you many questions.
If you feel tired of aswering, it is totally okay to ignore my questions.

This female doesn't carry the pink gene. In practice it has turned out that the moscow females carry the dominant moscow trait. But if the female itself is also wat darker on the body and specifically on the saddle, such females carry also a Y-chromosome. I know that in guppies, we're talking about XX combination for females and XY combination for males. But female guppies can have an Y-chromosome as well. That goes for most female guppies that have visible color traits that only suppose to be on a male's body.

What a coincidence! I've been able to create such a guppy → Black body and red fins. But I've used tuxedo red koi female x moscow black male. And the male offspring are having a total black body (includes the head) and red finnage. I'll add some pics of some that were younger at that time. But now, also all finnage are red and their bodies full black. These are roundtails, btw...

 

[xipo817]

I am surprised.
Can I ask you two questions?

What do you mean by "dominant moscow trait"?
Is that the metal head? Or the dark color on caudal peduncle? Or something else?

If the fullblack female is XY, do you think FB male is YY?Like some platy?
I think if that is the case crossing the male to other strain female might result in very unbalanced sex ratio.

Thanks for sharing photos of your guppy.Are they F1 or F2?And how about sex ratio.Was there no problem because koi female is also colored?

 

[emeraldking]

I am surprised.
Can I ask you two questions?

What do you mean by "dominant moscow trait"?
Is that the metal head? Or the dark color on caudal peduncle? Or something else?

If the fullblack female is XY, do you think FB male is YY?Like some platy?
I think if that is the case crossing the male to other strain female might result in very unbalanced sex ratio.

Thanks for sharing photos of your guppy.Are they F1 or F2?And how about sex ratio.Was there no problem because koi female is also colored?

"If the fullblack female is XY, do you think FB male is YY?Like some platy?" → Yes! And in a lot of fancy strains of platies, a lot of those males are YY and the females WY. For in that case, the males and females will have the same coloration on their bodies.

My sex ratio of my first cross were about 60% male to 40% female , using a black moscow male and a tuxedo red koi female. The specimens shown are F1.

No, there was no problem that the mother was a tuxedo red koi guppy.

What do you mean by "dominant moscow trait"? → The dark coloration on the entire body. The female carries the dominant trait and not the male.
A metal head can be created if you'd cross a moscow black, moscow purple, moscow blue and moscow green male to a non-moscow female. But in tuxedo red koi is also a moscow gene present.
Btw, if I go back to the 1970's, moscow guppies at that time, were half grey and half black. When the full moscows were introduced, those half blacks were called tuxedo and half black (HB) to make a distinct difference. And half grey became just half grey.

 

[xipo817]

The female carries the dominant trait and not the male.

I am a little blt confused.
Do you mean the gene responsible for the trait is on X chromosome?

 

[emeraldking]

I am a little blt confused.
Do you mean the gene responsible for the trait is on X chromosome?

Yes. The male will pass on the gene recessively.
If you'd cross a full moscow male to a non moscow female, the male offspring will only show moscow on the head (the socalled metalheads). If you'd cross a full moscow female to a non moscow male, the body of the male offspring will be dark.

Note: Not all color traits in guppies are Y-linked.

 

[xipo817]

Thank you. I am still confused.
Since full black male is YY, they don't have the X-linked gene.
In that case, is it the midnight gene on autosome that makes them black?

 

[emeraldking]

Thank you. I am still confused.
Since full black male is YY, they don't have the X-linked gene.
In that case, is it the midnight gene on autosome that makes them black?

Yes.

 

[xipo817]

Thank you.
I am crossing male full black(possibly YY midnight) to grassbelly full red female.
I hope to get midnight fire glassbelly on F2.
But if the male is YY and the female is XX the sex ratio of F1 would be very unbalanced.
I wonder what would happen.

 

[emeraldking]

Thank you.
I am crossing male full black(possibly YY midnight) to grassbelly full red female.
I hope to get midnight fire glassbelly on F2.
But if the male is YY and the female is XX the sex ratio of F1 would be very unbalanced.
I wonder what would happen.

Give it a shot... and wait and see what happens...