Is A 4Ppm Ammonia Normal On 2Nd Week Of Cycling

[kuzyaburst]

I have been cycling my tank with fish, and I have been in the cycling state for about 2 weeks and I wasn't get any readings above .50ppm then my ammonia spiked to 4ppm. I have plants and for the fish I have 6 Zebra Danios, i'm confused I heard about ammonia spikes but... is this kind of spike normal? Should I keep doing my 2 weekly 25% water changes or should I do something else? I have no readings on Nitates/nitrites.

 

[cl3537]

4ppm is pretty toxic for fish. I would do a 50% water changer immediately. What kind of test kit do you? make sure it is accurate.
The problem with fish in cycling is that you want to keep your fish alive and you need to keep doing water changes to keep the ammonia levels low.
 
If you just started less than 2 weeks you have very little bacteria and you may have to do daily testing and water changes, even with very hardy zebra danios I would be concerned and want to keep the the Ammonia at < 1ppm throughout the process. 

 

[kuzyaburst]

4ppm is pretty toxic for fish. I would do a 50% water changer immediately. What kind of test kit do you? make sure it is accurate.
The problem with fish in cycling is that you want to keep your fish alive and you need to keep doing water changes to keep the ammonia levels low.
 
If you just started less than 2 weeks you have very little bacteria and you may have to do daily testing and water changes, even with very hardy zebra danios I would be concerned and want to keep the the Ammonia at < 1ppm throughout the process. 

ok I will I use the API Master Testkit

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hmm, doing a fish in cycle is, at the best of times, not something that should be taken lightly.
 
I would, if you can, return the fish or ask LFS to hold them for you, then cycle your tank quickly with Dr Tim's One and Only Nitfying Bacteria following instructions to the letter on the bottle.
 
If doing any kind of tank cycling, you will need at least a liquid based test kit, API FW Master Test Kit is a popluar choice. 
Also if you do decide to go the fishless cycle route, you'll need ammonia as well, Dr Tims do sell Ammonium as it happens.
( do NOT use ammonia if doing fish in cycle process)
 
If you cannot do this, or want to continue with doing a fish in cycle, I suggest, if you havent already, have a read of both these articles.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/

 

[kuzyaburst]

Hmm, doing a fish in cycle is, at the best of times, not something that should be taken lightly.
 
I would, if you can, return the fish or ask LFS to hold them for you, then cycle your tank quickly with Dr Tim's One and Only Nitfying Bacteria following instructions to the letter on the bottle.
 
If doing any kind of tank cycling, you will need at least a liquid based test kit, API FW Master Test Kit is a popluar choice. 
Also if you do decide to go the fishless cycle route, you'll need ammonia as well, Dr Tims do sell Ammonium as it happens.
( do NOT use ammonia if doing fish in cycle process)
 
If you cannot do this, or want to continue with doing a fish in cycle, I suggest, if you havent already, have a read of both these articles.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/

Yeah a fishless cycle isn't really an option right now

but I did a 40% water change and the ammonia is now at .25 ppm, also should I be adding in more bacteria daily so a spike like this wouldn't happen as often? I use Topfin's bacteria supplement currently, but I also have Tetra's bacteria and wanted to know if it is ok to add their brand of bacteria in with the TopFin's (not at the same time of course). I'm still not getting any Nitrite readings so i'm guessing my bacteria hasn't been fully developed yet. I also have plants in my tank.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Just a few observations-
 
1. If you must use bottled bacteria the two best options are Dr.Tim's One and Only and then Tetra's SafeStart. I would not suggest using other brands as most do not contain the proper bacteria. Most often they contain the wrong strain of nitrite oxidizers. They contain Nitrobacter rather than Nitrospira which likely explains the lack of nitrite, The Nitrobacter are specialists in processing high nitrite levels, much higher than will be found in an established tank. However, in a tank being cycled where nitrite levels are much greater it will work. However, when the tank is finally cycled they will not be doing the work. It will be the Nitrospira which need to colonize. Moreover, without the use of a bacterial starter of some sort, the nitrite bacteria do not start to establish until after the ammonia ones have started to function well.
 
2. Live plants consume ammonium (which is the form most of the ammonia in a tank will take). When they do this it lowers ammonia levels but what it does not do is produce nitrite or nitrate. In facts many plants will use nitrate which is what causes well planted tanks to drop to ) nitrate and actually to require nitrate additions. You did not mention how many nor what sorts of plants you have.
 
3. The spike one would expect to see in ammonia during a fish in cycle with no live plants and no seeding of bacteria should normally occur at about the two week point. But this also depends on the number and size of the fish present and what else one might be adding to the tank such as fertilizers etc. The onset of nitrite normally appears a couple of days before the ammonia spike and then nitrite rises from there. It is possible you simply have not seen the nitrite yet.
 
4. When the wrong bacteria colonizes and then dies off to be replaced by the desired strains, those dead bacteria will create ammonia. Similarly, dying plant matter, uneaten food and any other organic waste creates ammonia. So this could be a part of any real ammonia spike.
 
5. In both a fishless and a fish in cycle water changes act to slow the process in most cases and are to be avoided unless necessary. Changing water during the ammonia phase can act to slow the onset of the nitrite phase. In a fishless we can tightly control the creation of ammonia since we are adding it. In a fish in we have much less control and the only method we can employ is in what fish and how many we choose to add. Moreover, how active the fish are and how much we may feed will affect ammonia production. Cycling with 6 zebra danios in a 50 gal. tank does not produce the same concentration of ammonia as cycling with the same number of fish in a 10 or 15 gal. tank. You did not mention the size of your tank.
 
6. Finally, between user error and test shortcomings, it is very easy for new fish keepers to wind up getting bad readings. How the test is done, what contaminants in the water that can distort those results (for ex: iron is especially hard on ammonia tests and a typical component of plant ferts). Dechlors which contain ammonia detoxifiers can also affect test results. So all of this makes it quite common for one to see readings which are not correct/accurate. It is possible your 4 ppm reading is not accurate. Just a note- 4 ppm in a tank with a pH of 7.0 and a temperature of 77F would result in an NH3 content of .023 ppm. The danger line is at about .05 ppm for most aquarium fish and at .02 ppm most aquatic creatures of all kinds are safe, at least in the short term. In such a case the fish behavior will usually indicate when a water change might be needed.
 
7. If one has ammonia at 4 ppm and does a 40% water change, the result should be a 40% reduction in ammonia or a reading after that change of 2.4 ppm. You claim the reading was .25 ppm. This simply does not add up.
 
8. As the articles linked by Ch4lie indicate, the toxicity of ammonia depends on the pH and temp. of the water. The lower the temp and pH, the less toxic ammonia is. The key is how much of the ammonia is in the NH3 form rather than NH4. Different fish are able to tolerate different levels.
 
9. I unapologetically state that almost nobody in the United States has a good reason for doing a fish in cycle. It is quite easy to get ammonia for going fishless.  Moreover, the time and effort needed for fishless is way way less than what it takes to do a fish in, so free time is never an excuse either. And finally, no fish are ever harmed or killed doing a fishless cycle.
 
My advice is to test twice from here on  to confirm your results are accurate. Be sure you are testing properly-
- Take the water from the mid level of the tank mot from the surface.
- Use the cap not your finger when shaking the test tube.
- Hold the tube against the white part of the card next tio the color bars to read the results.
- Test soon after using a dechlor which contains an ammonia detoxifier (or any ammonia detoxifiers). Waiting can affect results.
 
It would be a big help if you provide more information to include: tank size, plant load, brand of dechlor and other additives including plant ferts and the parameters of your tank water and tap water as well- pH and temp are key but also knowing the KH helps as well. When you test your tap water, either bubble the sample water for an hour or so or let it stand over night before testing.
 
Keep us posted as to what is going on. Too much detail is better than too little.....

 

[cl3537]

 

Hmm, doing a fish in cycle is, at the best of times, not something that should be taken lightly.
 
I would, if you can, return the fish or ask LFS to hold them for you, then cycle your tank quickly with Dr Tim's One and Only Nitfying Bacteria following instructions to the letter on the bottle.
 
If doing any kind of tank cycling, you will need at least a liquid based test kit, API FW Master Test Kit is a popluar choice. 
Also if you do decide to go the fishless cycle route, you'll need ammonia as well, Dr Tims do sell Ammonium as it happens.
( do NOT use ammonia if doing fish in cycle process)
 
If you cannot do this, or want to continue with doing a fish in cycle, I suggest, if you havent already, have a read of both these articles.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/

Yeah a fishless cycle isn't really an option right now

but I did a 40% water change and the ammonia is now at .25 ppm, also should I be adding in more bacteria daily so a spike like this wouldn't happen as often? I use Topfin's bacteria supplement currently, but I also have Tetra's bacteria and wanted to know if it is ok to add their brand of bacteria in with the TopFin's (not at the same time of course). I'm still not getting any Nitrite readings so i'm guessing my bacteria hasn't been fully developed yet. I also have plants in my tank.
 

Mixing the bacteria isn't a problem. Topfin's probably won't do much based on what I read but TSS might.
I am struggling with the same results in my own fishless cycle now. 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/436842-hi-all-just-signed-up-lots-of-questions-i-hope-you-gurus-can-answer/#entry3698173

 

[kuzyaburst]

Just a few observations-
 
1. If you must use bottled bacteria the two best options are Dr.Tim's One and Only and then Tetra's SafeStart. I would not suggest using other brands as most do not contain the proper bacteria. Most often they contain the wrong strain of nitrite oxidizers. They contain Nitrobacter rather than Nitrospira which likely explains the lack of nitrite, The Nitrobacter are specialists in processing high nitrite levels, much higher than will be found in an established tank. However, in a tank being cycled where nitrite levels are much greater it will work. However, when the tank is finally cycled they will not be doing the work. It will be the Nitrospira which need to colonize. Moreover, without the use of a bacterial starter of some sort, the nitrite bacteria do not start to establish until after the ammonia ones have started to function well.
 
2. Live plants consume ammonium (which is the form most of the ammonia in a tank will take). When they do this it lowers ammonia levels but what it does not do is produce nitrite or nitrate. In facts many plants will use nitrate which is what causes well planted tanks to drop to ) nitrate and actually to require nitrate additions. You did not mention how many nor what sorts of plants you have.
 
3. The spike one would expect to see in ammonia during a fish in cycle with no live plants and no seeding of bacteria should normally occur at about the two week point. But this also depends on the number and size of the fish present and what else one might be adding to the tank such as fertilizers etc. The onset of nitrite normally appears a couple of days before the ammonia spike and then nitrite rises from there. It is possible you simply have not seen the nitrite yet.
 
4. When the wrong bacteria colonizes and then dies off to be replaced by the desired strains, those dead bacteria will create ammonia. Similarly, dying plant matter, uneaten food and any other organic waste creates ammonia. So this could be a part of any real ammonia spike.
 
5. In both a fishless and a fish in cycle water changes act to slow the process in most cases and are to be avoided unless necessary. Changing water during the ammonia phase can act to slow the onset of the nitrite phase. In a fishless we can tightly control the creation of ammonia since we are adding it. In a fish in we have much less control and the only method we can employ is in what fish and how many we choose to add. Moreover, how active the fish are and how much we may feed will affect ammonia production. Cycling with 6 zebra danios in a 50 gal. tank does not produce the same concentration of ammonia as cycling with the same number of fish in a 10 or 15 gal. tank. You did not mention the size of your tank.
 
6. Finally, between user error and test shortcomings, it is very easy for new fish keepers to wind up getting bad readings. How the test is done, what contaminants in the water that can distort those results (for ex: iron is especially hard on ammonia tests and a typical component of plant ferts). Dechlors which contain ammonia detoxifiers can also affect test results. So all of this makes it quite common for one to see readings which are not correct/accurate. It is possible your 4 ppm reading is not accurate. Just a note- 4 ppm in a tank with a pH of 7.0 and a temperature of 77F would result in an NH3 content of .023 ppm. The danger line is at about .05 ppm for most aquarium fish and at .02 ppm most aquatic creatures of all kinds are safe, at least in the short term. In such a case the fish behavior will usually indicate when a water change might be needed.
 
7. If one has ammonia at 4 ppm and does a 40% water change, the result should be a 40% reduction in ammonia or a reading after that change of 2.4 ppm. You claim the reading was .25 ppm. This simply does not add up.
 
8. As the articles linked by Ch4lie indicate, the toxicity of ammonia depends on the pH and temp. of the water. The lower the temp and pH, the less toxic ammonia is. The key is how much of the ammonia is in the NH3 form rather than NH4. Different fish are able to tolerate different levels.
 
9. I unapologetically state that almost nobody in the United States has a good reason for doing a fish in cycle. It is quite easy to get ammonia for going fishless.  Moreover, the time and effort needed for fishless is way way less than what it takes to do a fish in, so free time is never an excuse either. And finally, no fish are ever harmed or killed doing a fishless cycle.
 
My advice is to test twice from here on  to confirm your results are accurate. Be sure you are testing properly-
- Take the water from the mid level of the tank mot from the surface.
- Use the cap not your finger when shaking the test tube.
- Hold the tube against the white part of the card next tio the color bars to read the results.
- Test soon after using a dechlor which contains an ammonia detoxifier (or any ammonia detoxifiers). Waiting can affect results.
 
It would be a big help if you provide more information to include: tank size, plant load, brand of dechlor and other additives including plant ferts and the parameters of your tank water and tap water as well- pH and temp are key but also knowing the KH helps as well. When you test your tap water, either bubble the sample water for an hour or so or let it stand over night before testing.
 
Keep us posted as to what is going on. Too much detail is better than too little.....

Sorry for not having enough info about my tank... I have a 36g Aqueon Bowfront tank with 6 zebra danios that are very active and I observed them today and they look fine. I only have one type of plant in my tank currently (rotala indica) I have 2 bunches of them (like 5 stems in each). I ordered new plants (banana plant, anubias nana, amazon sword, java fern, 2 wisterias, cabomba). My tank also has gravel and black fluorite. I add in Flourish Excel daily, and starting tomorrow I will be adding in Flourish comprehensive supplement. Knowing what you said i'm going to switch to the Tetra bacteria supplement instead. I have very soft water which has a pH of around 7.5 sometimes a little higher. The day I had 4ppm ammonia results my fish were looking very gloomy and their colors weren't as clear and contrasty, I checked today and they look normal again bright and colorful. If there is anything else I need to add please say so, I might have forgotten something.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I think you have covered most of it. Your plants will help with ammonia but are not sufficient to carry most of the load. the addition of the new plants will help. just be aware Amazon swords get huge and if the tank is hospitable to plants, it will outgrow the tank in a matter of months.
 
Unless you are doing a high light co2 added tanks I would hold off on adding ferts. most plants come to us in great shape with stored nutrients. In addition, the ammonia and nitrate the tank produces are food for the plants. One of my favorite sites to send people just starting with plants the Tropica site. they are the world's leading developers and producers of top quality aquatic plants. The have excellent resources on their site that will guide you from A to Z with words pictures and videos. Here is the addy http/tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/ Take some time and click on all the links on the left side of the page in order and you wont regret it.
 
As for you ammonia levels and the fish. 4 ppm in pH 7.6 at 78F is very toxic to fish. Fortunately zebra danios can handle more ammonia than the average fish so it was a proper choice for a fish in cycle. You probably should have started with no more than 4 but that is water under the bridge. Your fish yold you how bad 4 ppm was in your parameters by their behavior.
 
A fish in cycle is like a dance. One the one hand you want to allow the ammonia to rise and fall on its own while at the same time you do not wish it to get high enough nor persist long enough to harm the fish. Any ammonia test that shows total ammonia does not provide enough info to know if that reading is a danger in a specific tank. For example if your tank had a pH of 7.0 that 4 ppm of ammonia should not be toxic and the fish should be able to handle it for a day or two. That said once one hits 2 ppm of total ammonia even when the NH3 involved is not at toxic levels it is important to monitor the fish. the arbitor of the possible ill effects is not merely our test results, which may or may not be accurate, but how the fish behave. Even if the test indicates the ammonia level is safe for the short term, if your fish show signs of ammonia poisoning, change the water.
 
The above, along with further issues, is why it is always preferred to do a fishless cycle rather than a fishin unless one has a very well planted tank. In these one can add fish gradually from the start and have things go fine. What you cannot do in such tanks is put in a full fish load all at once the way we can after completing a proper fishless cycle.
 
In your tank at a PH and temp above you need to keep total ammonia at 2 ppm or less. At 2.5 ppm you have crossed into the danger zone for many fish even for fairly short term exposure. Moreover, if you do get to the point where a water change is required, it is usually fine to do 50% and allow ammonia to persist at 1/2 those levels. This keeps it safer for the fish while still pushing the cycling process to its conclusion in the shortest reasonable time.
 
Next is a heads up for any nitrite you may see. While many folks urge water changes for nitrite, there is a better way. One can uses smaller amounts of salt to block the nitrite from being able to affect the fish. It is actually the chloride part of the salt which does this. Using some salt for a short time should not harm almost anything in a tank, even things that don't do well with it at higher amounts or for longer time periods. This lets one avoid the stressful potential of repeated large water changes in a tank where fish are not really settled in. If you get to this phase directions for using salt can be found in this article http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
And again, all this is a great reason for doing fishless vs fish in whenever possible.

 

[kuzyaburst]

I think you have covered most of it. Your plants will help with ammonia but are not sufficient to carry most of the load. the addition of the new plants will help. just be aware Amazon swords get huge and if the tank is hospitable to plants, it will outgrow the tank in a matter of months.
 
Unless you are doing a high light co2 added tanks I would hold off on adding ferts. most plants come to us in great shape with stored nutrients. In addition, the ammonia and nitrate the tank produces are food for the plants. One of my favorite sites to send people just starting with plants the Tropica site. they are the world's leading developers and producers of top quality aquatic plants. The have excellent resources on their site that will guide you from A to Z with words pictures and videos. Here is the addy http/tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/ Take some time and click on all the links on the left side of the page in order and you wont regret it.
 
As for you ammonia levels and the fish. 4 ppm in pH 7.6 at 78F is very toxic to fish. Fortunately zebra danios can handle more ammonia than the average fish so it was a proper choice for a fish in cycle. You probably should have started with no more than 4 but that is water under the bridge. Your fish yold you how bad 4 ppm was in your parameters by their behavior.
 
A fish in cycle is like a dance. One the one hand you want to allow the ammonia to rise and fall on its own while at the same time you do not wish it to get high enough nor persist long enough to harm the fish. Any ammonia test that shows total ammonia does not provide enough info to know if that reading is a danger in a specific tank. For example if your tank had a pH of 7.0 that 4 ppm of ammonia should not be toxic and the fish should be able to handle it for a day or two. That said once one hits 2 ppm of total ammonia even when the NH3 involved is not at toxic levels it is important to monitor the fish. the arbitor of the possible ill effects is not merely our test results, which may or may not be accurate, but how the fish behave. Even if the test indicates the ammonia level is safe for the short term, if your fish show signs of ammonia poisoning, change the water.
 
The above, along with further issues, is why it is always preferred to do a fishless cycle rather than a fishin unless one has a very well planted tank. In these one can add fish gradually from the start and have things go fine. What you cannot do in such tanks is put in a full fish load all at once the way we can after completing a proper fishless cycle.
 
In your tank at a PH and temp above you need to keep total ammonia at 2 ppm or less. At 2.5 ppm you have crossed into the danger zone for many fish even for fairly short term exposure. Moreover, if you do get to the point where a water change is required, it is usually fine to do 50% and allow ammonia to persist at 1/2 those levels. This keeps it safer for the fish while still pushing the cycling process to its conclusion in the shortest reasonable time.
 
Next is a heads up for any nitrite you may see. While many folks urge water changes for nitrite, there is a better way. One can uses smaller amounts of salt to block the nitrite from being able to affect the fish. It is actually the chloride part of the salt which does this. Using some salt for a short time should not harm almost anything in a tank, even things that don't do well with it at higher amounts or for longer time periods. This lets one avoid the stressful potential of repeated large water changes in a tank where fish are not really settled in. If you get to this phase directions for using salt can be found in this article http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
And again, all this is a great reason for doing fishless vs fish in whenever possible.

Ok thanks, i'll look take a look at the links. Also I need to get my pH lower is there anything I can do to lower without using liquids? I heard a friend say their pH dropped when they added plants, do plants even affect the pH? 

 

[the_lock_man]

Mucking about with pH level is not a good idea.
 
First, you want a nice high pH for growing bacteria, but even when the tank is cycled, it's far better to choose fish which suit your pH, rather than choosing a pH to suit your fish. Even then, many "low pH" fish will work just fine in a high pH water (although not vice versa, AIUI)
 
Trying to manually change a pH is an added complexity which you don't want when you are learning the hobby - even if you successfully achieve it, you have to watch when carrying out water changes, as the replacement water will be at a different pH to the tank water.
 
Best to let the water do what it wants, and tailor your choice of fish.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Mucking about with pH level is not a good idea.
 
First, you want a nice high pH for growing bacteria, but even when the tank is cycled, it's far better to choose fish which suit your pH, rather than choosing a pH to suit your fish. Even then, many "low pH" fish will work just fine in a high pH water (although not vice versa, AIUI)
 
Trying to manually change a pH is an added complexity which you don't want when you are learning the hobby - even if you successfully achieve it, you have to watch when carrying out water changes, as the replacement water will be at a different pH to the tank water.
 
Best to let the water do what it wants, and tailor your choice of fish.

 
Could not have put this better myself. 100% in agreement.
 
Few people do try to alter ph levels with varying degrees of success but it is not for the beginner to try really. A lot of research and some fishkeeping experience is essential.
 
More often than not, this procedure of altering ph usually ends in disaster

 

[kuzyaburst]

Alright so I tested my ammonia and nitrite and they were both .25ppm, today I had a shipment that came in with a bunch of live plants. I forgot to test before adding the plants, so I tested afterwards the ammonia is still stable at .25ppm but nitrite disappeared and is no longer .25 but now 0. Is it because of the plants? I listed the plants I have above in a reply, could it be possible that the plants actually got rid of a lot of the ammonia and the bacteria had not enough ammonia to start converting it to nitrite?