Inbreeding Of Guppies/other Animals

[fish48]

eaglesaquarium  you say that  Guppies aren't as hardy as they used to be because of inbreeding
pleases can you give more information on this subject as to why you think inbreeding is a problem ?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

eaglesaquarium  you say that  Guppies aren't as hardy as they used to be because of inbreeding
pleases can you give more information on this subject as to why you think inbreeding is a problem ?

 
Simply stated - lack of genetic diversity.

 

[snazy]

eaglesaquarium  you say that  Guppies aren't as hardy as they used to be because of inbreeding
pleases can you give more information on this subject as to why you think inbreeding is a problem ?

 
Simply stated - lack of genetic diversity.

 
If you start with a bunch or weak guppies, inbreeding will make it worse. But if you have healthy specimens, inbreeding is hardly a problem. It's not about diversity, it's about what genes you concentrate on and sometimes inbreeding the right ones is a good thing.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

eaglesaquarium  you say that  Guppies aren't as hardy as they used to be because of inbreeding
pleases can you give more information on this subject as to why you think inbreeding is a problem ?

 
Simply stated - lack of genetic diversity.

 
If you start with a bunch or weak guppies, inbreeding will make it worse. But if you have healthy specimens, inbreeding is hardly a problem. It's not about diversity, it's about what genes you concentrate on and sometimes inbreeding the right ones is a good thing.

 
 
Not exactly.   
 
Each generation is going to suffer mutations (mistakes in copying the DNA), and that leads to weaker fish...  The more closely related the more similar the DNA - and each specimen is going to have some mistakes.  They don't always manifest themselves, because of "self-correcting", etc.   But, the more you inbreed the same animals with a small sample of parents, the MORE mistakes are going to be seen.
 
 
Same reason that you don't want to have kids with your own siblings... DNA is too similar and that leads to all kinds of issues.  Inbreeding leads to weaker specimens, regardless of the starting stock.  The only thing that's different is that if you start with weaker specimens it happens faster.

 

[snazy]

What I am going to say is a bit nazi, but what you are talking about is for inbreeding already troubled genes, or carrying problem genes from generation to generation. It isn't a mutation, it's just passing on bad genes. Take for example "hemophilia" and the british royal family..... Sorry if it's touchy for some people and I apologize in advance if it sounds offensive, but if you know how genes work, it's all about the bad ones being let spread out, or rather breed two specimens that both carry that bad gene, resulting in worse...
You don't have kids with your own siblings for the same reason, because the chances of passing the bad genes are greater. But not if you and your siblings didn't have bad genes.....Then the chances of passing the good genes are greater....
 
Hence we don't breed the sick and ugly looking fish.....but it's inhumane and I totally can't cull fish because of their imperfections...
So it just depends on which side of the coin you are looking at when it comes to breeding and inbreeding.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

There are bad genes in all of us, whether we admit it or not... The "recessives" generally are not the strong genes, and inbreeding just exacerbates the problem.
 
 
Look at how zoos manage their breeding programs, and how dog breeders (far more regulated than fish breeders - although not as much) and horse breeders.  They keep careful track of which animals are bred with other animals to try to keep as much genetic diversity as possible, while also trying to selectively breed.  There's a big difference between inbreeding and selectively breeding.  You can breed in hopes of bringing out a particular trait, but only to a certain extent.    Fish breeding is not nearly as regulated and as a result certain species have been "overbred" - if you prefer that term, and are now weaker than they had been in the hobby.
 
 
Neon tetras used to be considered quite hardy, but not so anymore (Neon Tetra Disease aside - they just happened to be the first breed the disease was found in).
 
 
"Bad genes" are mutations - as in mutated from "good genes".

 

[snazy]

They keep careful track of which animals are bred with other animals to try to keep as much genetic diversity as possible, while also trying to selectively breed.

 
Well, being a horse fan myself, I can tell you it's not about diversity, it's about trying to reproduce the exact same genes or nearly the exact ones in the next generation. That's hard as you say you never know what other "bad gene" would pop up if you don't select the other parent right.
 
Race horses are quite inbred to get to what they are...You don't breed a donkey with a race horse for diversity for example. Sorry eagles, but I don't agree with you.
 
Edit: I would call it bad breeding, not inbreeding. It has nothing to do with crossing siblings. It has to do with breeding the bad genes and not knowing what you are doing, as we often happen to do in the fish hobby, including myself.

 

[daizeUK]

I find this discussion interesting and you both present a compelling argument.  I think that a discussion about the pros and cons of inbreeding is worthy of its own thread as I'd like to understand this better, perhaps not in this thread as I'm not sure the OP wanted to discuss it, but I'd be interested in seeing it explained further

 

[fish48]

They keep careful track of which animals are bred with other animals to try to keep as much genetic diversity as possible, while also trying to selectively breed.

 
 
Edit: I would call it bad breeding, not inbreeding. It has nothing to do with crossing siblings. It has to do with breeding the bad genes and not knowing what you are doing, as we often happen to do in the fish hobby, including myself.

1 agree100% most of it is bad breeding  and guppy 's are as hardy as ever

 

[eaglesaquarium]

They keep careful track of which animals are bred with other animals to try to keep as much genetic diversity as possible, while also trying to selectively breed.

 
Well, being a horse fan myself, I can tell you it's not about diversity, it's about trying to reproduce the exact same genes or nearly the exact ones in the next generation. That's hard as you say you never know what other "bad gene" would pop up if you don't select the other parent right.
 
Race horses are quite inbred to get to what they are...You don't breed a donkey with a race horse for diversity for example. Sorry eagles, but I don't agree with you.
 
Edit: I would call it bad breeding, not inbreeding. It has nothing to do with crossing siblings. It has to do with breeding the bad genes and not knowing what you are doing, as we often happen to do in the fish hobby, including myself.

 
If you breed a donkey with a horse, you get a mule.  They are sterile and incapable of breeding.
 
Race horses aren't 'inbred' as such... They are 'selectively bred'.
 
 
http/www.dogbreedinfo.com/inbreeding.htm

Conclusion
Inbreeding is a double-edged sword. On the one hand a certain amount of inbreeding can fix and improve type to produce excellent quality animals. On the other hand, excessive inbreeding can limit the gene pool so that the breed loses vigor. Breeds in the early stages of development are most vulnerable as numbers are small and the dogs may be closely related to one another. It is up to the responsible breeder to balance inbreeding against crossings with unrelated dogs in order to maintain the overall health of the line or breed concerned.

 
 
Granted this is about dogs, but remember dog breeders keep records about which animals are breed and the bloodlines are very well documented... as with race horses... Endangered species in zoos also continue to be bred with copious amounts of records to LIMIT inbreeding.  Why is that?

 

[TallTree01]

I don't really think I need to know why it's bad... I just need to know it makes things weaker.

Flowers- the wind pollinating type - these plants rely on wind to pollinate other flowers. They were built to allow the wind to carry the pollen as far as possible. Why? Because if they breed with their neighbor flowers the new flowers will be less strong. Listen to the plants, they know.

 

[snazy]

If you breed a donkey with a horse, you get a mule. They are sterile and incapable of breeding.
 
Race horses aren't 'inbred' as such... They are 'selectively bred'.

 
I used the exampe between a race horse and a donkey just to show that diversity is not what you want. What we call a "mule" is how we humans perceive a cross between these two animals. Call it a hybrid, whatever, but you can't deny their genes are diverse, but it ain't a race horse anymore and it loses all it's ability to be one.
 
If you go back to the parents, grand parents, etc... of the best race horses, they are mostly related, and they keep crossing them.  If you don't call that inbreeding then what is it then.
Or inbreeding is just between sisters, brothers, mothers and fathers?

 

[TallTree01]

If we go back far enough we're all related from the tiny li'l organisms that evolved into us

 

[snazy]

If we go back far enough we're all related from the tiny li'l organisms that evolved into us

 
Yes, we all come from Africa from a little pool of genes and we inbred ourselves. At least that's what genetic scientists say these days.

 

[daizeUK]

What I'm taking from this so far is that selective breeding (as in racehorses and dogs) can be good and this is acheived by careful selection using pedigree records, whereas uncontrolled inbreeding of siblings and offspring to parents can introduce weakness to the gene pool.
 
What confuses me is that some people say that guppies are fragile and others say they are hardy?  Who is right?