Inbreeding Of Guppies/other Animals

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Personally , i have seen what happens to guppies when water quality deteriorates , they are the first to go , in 3 months i lost 6 guppys and am now reluctant to buy any more, the first 3 died from poor water while my tank was cycling up,  to pregnant females died when being separated, from stress, and the last one died a few days ago from Bloat , poor thing looked like the Hindenburg. 

I have Heard a few reputable fish shops say , sorry no guppies in because we are not happy with the quality of them... 
i think it is possible to breed strong guppies (Without Inbreeding) , but it will take some really careful planning, possibly even as many as 8 tanks say taking 2 pairs to start with , and mixing the fry from these two pairs in to a separate tank then do the same with another 2 pairs , if of the same variety , but trying to Make some that mummy and daddy came from separate fish shops to make sure they are not Bro and sis , and keep doing this introducing fry from new parent pairings, in to a larger community tank then the change of them breeding with a brother or sis is limited to 1 in 6 but the community tank is going to need to be Big unless you are selling the fry to a local dealer.. 
 
However  the one thing you have no control over, is how far inbred the mother and father pair are already, 
 
results of inbreeding are , 
* Reduced tolerance to poor water 
* Reduced resistance to illness and parasites
* Limited Life Span,
* Muddy Colours (multiple random colour pairings can eventually lead to the loss of colour strain that the individual had to start with. 

 
 
results of inbreeding are
Muddy Colours (multiple random colour pairings can eventually lead to the loss of colour strain that the individual had to start with. 
 
 
This is contradictory to your original point, because you are saying random pairings(as in unrelated strains) will lead to loss of colour. This is true, but actually explains one of the reasons why fancy guppies need to be "inbred" in order to keep the colour strain going without change. The same applies to why one should select also the healthiest specimens, etc...instead of doing random breeding with whatever is in the shops. It has got nothing to do with whether they are related or not.  I think the problem with guppies is mostly because people that had no clue about breeding bred fancy guppies and sold them in the shops for many years, and now we are dealing with generations of non-selective breeding, letting the bad genes go out of hand.  It's as easy as throwing a couple of guppies of different gender in a fish tank and wait for them to multiply,but that doesn't guarantee colour, health, life span, etc..
 
JCorvinus said:
Personally , i have seen what happens to guppies when water quality deteriorates , they are the first to go , in 3 months i lost 6 guppys and am now reluctant to buy any more, the first 3 died from poor water while my tank was cycling up,  to pregnant females died when being separated, from stress, and the last one died a few days ago from Bloat , poor thing looked like the Hindenburg. 

I have Heard a few reputable fish shops say , sorry no guppies in because we are not happy with the quality of them... 
i think it is possible to breed strong guppies (Without Inbreeding) , but it will take some really careful planning, possibly even as many as 8 tanks say taking 2 pairs to start with , and mixing the fry from these two pairs in to a separate tank then do the same with another 2 pairs , if of the same variety , but trying to Make some that mummy and daddy came from separate fish shops to make sure they are not Bro and sis , and keep doing this introducing fry from new parent pairings, in to a larger community tank then the change of them breeding with a brother or sis is limited to 1 in 6 but the community tank is going to need to be Big unless you are selling the fry to a local dealer.. 
 
However  the one thing you have no control over, is how far inbred the mother and father pair are already, 
 
results of inbreeding are , 
* Reduced tolerance to poor water 
* Reduced resistance to illness and parasites
* Limited Life Span,
* Muddy Colours (multiple random colour pairings can eventually lead to the loss of colour strain that the individual had to start with. 
 
if you know what you are looking for you Should be able to go in to almost any lfs pick out a pair or a group of guppy's let them breed /inbreed them
they can tolerate poor water no effect of  illness and parasites and  can have a normal life span  when kept at correct condition
 
JoebW said:
I suppose one could say we started off with inbreeding. But I don't agree with starting off as a microorganism. Adam and Eve had children...
 
 
Even with this argument.. Adam and Eve came from the same place.. siblings.. inbreeding. Lol
 
I think that was his point.  He's saying that if you follow the Bible, the entire human race is inbred since we all started from two individuals.
 
Even if you don't then the scientific viewpoint is not far different.  Apparently you can trace our DNA back to a group of 8 or so females in Africa, or so I once heard.
 
I can't get over the fact that we so frequently hear about inbreeding making a species more fragile.  Here's an example from UKShrimp on the Crystal Red Shrimp:
 
 
Overview: The Crystal Red Shrimp was originally bred by Japanese shrimp keeper Hisayasu Suzuki when he discovered a single red shrimp with his normal bee shrimp. This died with no obvious offspring, but when 3 red shrimp were discovered in the next generation they were separated out and they became the start of an intensive breeding program. He trademarked the name Crystal Red Shrimp in Japan, started selling them and the rest is history!
 
The striking red and white stripes have made these shrimp very popular and they are one of my favorites. They have been selectively bred to improve the brightness of these stripes, some to the extreme of being totally white. The shrimp available in the uk tend to have lower quality stripes with broken white areas, although some higher quality shrimp are becoming available now. Unfortunately due to their inbred nature these shrimp can be very sensitive to small changes in water quality. I lost my CRS after problems caused by over cleaning the tank and overfeeding. Don't let that put you off, so long as you do regular small water changes and don't feed them too much you should be ok.
 
The short version is that all CRS started from one mutant individual and were inbred to emphasise those colours which resulted in less hardy shrimp.  This is the sort of thing I think of when I hear inbreeding.
 
I think the problem isn't with inbreeding as much as it is with "irresponsible breeding". I can't help but feel that near enough everyone here has, at some point or another, irresponsibly bred fish without thinking about what it means for the fish or the species in general. And this goes for all animals but especially fish as it is completely unregulated.
 
Personally, I think all or most livebearers imported out to be sterilised somehow to prevent breeding, it would make keeping them a lot easier and a lot less 'irresponsibly bred' bred fish as they probably count for about 90% of it.
 
But as I said, people don't stop to think about the ethics of just sticking two random fish in together and letting them get on with it, the potential health risks to both parties, the stress it causes to them and tank mates, the rearing of the babies (because neither sticking them in a net or letting them get eaten is 'letting nature take its course', not in a tank!) and the strain over crowding will put on the tank for other fish and the filtration and the over population of a species in general... often leading to people having to cull or 'dispose' of them in really appalling ways like releasing non native species into the wild or flushing them down the toilet. Fish keepers less than any other breeders seem to consider the ethics behind breeding.
 
I am going to base the rest of this post on a (really awfully written) article I wrote when I was 15 though shared again when I was 18 for a hamster forum on the ethics behind deciding to breed hamsters. The general idea is the same (even if the dire spelling and species is not!) either read it or not as its pretty much what I am about to write, thought I ought to cite myself ;)
http://hamster.etla.org/cgi-bin/topic_show.pl?tid=92
 
But (for those who can't be bothered to read it!), think about the ethics of breeding anything, beginning with what is meant by the term 'Ethics' which is a 'set theory or system of morals' and generally implies that you have considered all the pros and cons before deciding to breed anything.
 
The only real reason that can possibly hold any ground (and goes for any species out there and I would doubt any breeder that didn't state this as their aims!) is:
 
"To make a distinct improvement on the quality of the parents (e.g. colour, size, shape) following a standard that is appropriate for the species".
 
Most of the time if you ask someone why they are breeding their pets you get one of these answers:
 
*Because I love my *insert species* and I want more like him/her/them.
*Because I want more *insert species* of the same colour.
*Because I know people who want a *insert species* too
*Because I want to make some money.
*Because I want some babies to look after.
*Because my *insert species* were lonely and I thought it would only be fair/natural for them to have babies.
 
These, whilst being generally the most common reasons people state for breeding their pets are usually the most flawed reasons. Most people don't see or more likely understand the flaws and the other half the time, they just couldn't care less and probably shouldn't be responsible for keeping animals, let alone breeding them.
 
There is no reason for people to need to breed fish, there are so many fish out there that could do with homes, shops have an abundance of them and websites like ebay, gumtree and preloved etc have a never ending list of tanks with fish in just begging to be rescued.
 
Articles like this from the Environment Agency are regularly posted for all to see:
 
The Environment Agency is warning the public that ‘pet’ fish and non-native fish should not be placed into their local streams, rivers and lakes because they are breaking the law.

 
The reminder comes after fisheries officers were called to remove non-native fish found in a stream beside the Great Stour, Kent. The fish, including at least 50 goldfish, were found by a Mid Kent Fisheries bailiff and reported to the Environment Agency. It is likely that the fish were put into the river from a garden pond.
 
When ornamental fish are released into rivers they can spread disease and parasites to other fish. This is why it is imperative that the capture and release of fish into rivers and lakes is regulated by the Environment Agency. The public need to be aware that unauthorised release of non-native fish is against the law.
 
Under licence from the Environment Agency, Mid Kent Fisheries staff have now removed the introduced fish from the stream and have taken them to an ornamental fish farm.
Environment Agency fisheries officer Steve Smith said: “When people clean out their ponds, it is very important that the fish are only put into ornamental ponds and not rivers and lakes. Even healthy looking goldfish and koi carp can be carriers of disease that can kill fish species in rivers and lakes.”
 
For information about non-native fish, see the Environment Agency’s website: http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/recreation/fishing/99055.aspx
If you see non-native fish or someone discarding fish into public waterways, please call the Environment Agency’s 24 hour Incident Hotline on 0800 80 70 60 to report the incident.
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/news/142479.aspx
 
And not just in the country but world wide...
 
Fish enthusiasts and suppliers in Singapore are trying to breed new types of Flowerhorn cichlid and dumping their "rejects" and diseased fish into local rivers, according to a report in The Straits Times.
 
One breeder told the paper: "Some fish had bloated bodies and no humps on their heads; others were skinny and had no fins. What do you expect me to do with them?"
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=144
 
And the above is the result of a lack of knowledge on the breeders part, poor consideration when choosing specimens to breed from and breeding from already deformed hybrids.
 
The other half of that blame lies with the people creating such a high demand for these fish.
 
Considering peoples' reasons for breeding at all, looking back at the previous list:
 
*Because I love my *insert species* and I want more like him/her/them.
 
This is NOT a good reason to breed! The babies are not clones of the parents! Who is to say they will look the same? Genetics don't always work like that. If you love your pet, take the time and effort to provide the best possible environment for them and enjoy watching them live a long, happy and healthy life.
 
*Because I want more *insert species* of the same colour.
 
Unless you have done a considerable amount or research into the genetics of your chosen species and understand the genetic coding for each colour, pattern, shape, and fur/skin/scale type, how can you hope to achieve any particular outcome? Without knowing the genetics of not only the breeding pair but also several generations on both sides of that pair, their is no way you can predict the outcome of the offspring, and even with that knowledge, there is the chance or recessive or hidden genetic traits cropping up down the line.
 
*Because I know people who want a *insert species* too
 
As has been mentioned already, there are plenty of shops importing these animals (and providing a livelihood for many people along the way) and breeders who have exceptional knowledge of their chosen species and of the genetics that enable them to make informed decisions. Not to mention the abundance of fish that need rescuing from less than desirable conditions.
 
*Because I want to make some money.
 
There is very rarely any profit in breeding anything unless done on a very large scale, larger than almost any 'pet keeper' can hope to achieve. By the time you add up the cost of the extra equipment needed, the time needed, the care involved, the vet fees if it all goes horribly wrong or cost of medications... the costs generally outweigh the total profit of selling the offspring, most small scale breeders end up running at a loss.
 
*Because I want some babies to look after.
 
This is quite a hard one to work around, it's understandable that everyone loves babies and wants to experience watching them growing up. But this should still be done with serious consideration to everything that has been mentioned. If you are so desperate to breed an animal despite all the potential problems, confront the potential issues before they happen, put money aside, do your research, talk to knowledgeable people, acquire stock from reputable knowledgeable breeders and more importantly, choose your species carefully.
 
*Because my *insert species* were lonely and I thought it would only be fair/natural for them to have babies.
 
The term 'anthropomorphism' is important here, or... 'attributing human feelings or emotions onto something that is not human'. Our pets don't think the way we do and whilst it might be 'cute' to think so, its very inaccurate and can lead to unhappy and stressed animals.
 
Whilst it is natural for animals to want to reproduce, that is almost entirely the sum of their lives, they don't feel happy or sad, lust or longing for children or any of those emotions, their entire reason in life is, essentially, to reproduce as prolifically as possible. Realistically, this is exactly the same for humans but with a far more complex array of emotions involved and being top of the food chain, there is nothing (other than disease) to control the population.
 
Keeping animals in captivity at all is already removing them from everything that is natural, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, many species no longer exist in the wild or have been bred in captivity for so many generations that they have lost all instincts to survive in the wild. But in removing them from the wild, we have chosen to domesticate these animals and take full responsibility for them, including their reproduction.
 
Animals don't need to reproduce to be happy if they are otherwise kept in the right environment.
 
No matter what species you decide to take responsibility for, if you do decide to take the responsibility of breeding them, at very least make sure that you know how many offspring could potentially be produced at that you have the ability to either cull them or house them into adulthood should you not be able to find homes for them.
 
 
 

 
 
I have such a headache now!!
huh.png

 
I know that was more focused on if/why you should breed rather than inbreeding itself but it is directly tied in. Someone who had done a serious amount of research on their chosen species would already understand the different terms used in breeding animals and the resulting effects it would have on not just the offspring but the species as a whole.
 
I used to breed a lot of Syrian hamsters and at one point we had about 25 breeding adults (all individually housed) and that's not including babies. Now, with any species other than fish... if you were wishing to sell babies from your pets, you actually require a license to be doing so. The loophole with requiring a pet shop license to sell livestock is if you are breeding to show animals, which I was doing, I was breeding to the National Hamster Council standards from livestock that we had genetic histories for at least several generations on both sides, and the babies we were selling were purely 'excess stock'. We were clearly not breeding for profit (and almost always running at a loss as it cost far more to feed and house them than you could get by selling babies!).
 
Because we were breeding to a set standard and understood the genetics of colour and fur type etc, we had our own standards as well such as not breeding from specimens with particularly aggressive behaviours or poor traits such as overly nervous, twitchy or anything psychologically abnormal, we would carefully chose our pairings after much research into creating our own lines, and to keep the line going, we would outcross to an animal that is as unrelated as possible (for Syrian hamsters in captivity, this is actually fairly impossible as all those in America came from one captured family of wild Syrian hamsters and all those in Europe and UK from another captured family of wild Syrian hamsters) but that aside.. as unrelated as possible to 'freshen up the genetics and introduce new positive traits'. Very occasionally with certain lines, we would chose to line breed to help establish certain genetics and traits within the line. This didn't involve directly breeding siblings but occasionally a male with a daughter or mother with a son, but more often they would be much more distantly related than that. This was generally only necessary when trying to establish some of the rarer and recessive colour mutations that involve multiple genetic codes from 4/5/6/7 etc different colour mutations. It was only ever done with an aim in mind, a clear history of the genetics involved and the ability and heart (unfortunately) to cull offspring that just weren't viable and remove individuals from breeding plans.
 
More devastating with Syrian hamsters is the prevalence of tumours later in life which is obviously not a trait you want to breed for. If a hamster developed a tumour (and this involved keeping in touch with as many of the owners you homed the offspring with as possible!) then it would be necessary to remove all relations of that hamster from the breeding program, potentially losing years worth of breeding efforts.
 
It isn't all just fun and games, it can be devastating to lose a pet to breeding complications or to lose all the babies after so much work has been involved.
 
With fish, you are considerably more lucky as it is almost completely unrestricted but this doesn't mean that people shouldn't take responsibility for what they are doing. Look at all the species that are nor prone to physical deformities like kinked spines and twisted jaws that could be avoided!
 
And yet many species are facing extinction because nobody is willing to step forward and take on a project and put in the hours of work and expense and research involved in saving an entire species!
 
MBOU, this strikes a chord with me as somebody who bought a bunch of platies and stuck them in a tank just to experience the novelty of watching baby fish grow up.  I'd never reared baby animals before and I really wanted the chance to keep animals that I'd raised from birth myself.  A lot of what you were saying I felt was directed at me!
 
However do irresponsible hobbyists like me really matter when we're talking about the genetic effect on the species as a whole?  Surely it is the large-scale breeders you mentioned who are 99.9 % responsible for the genetic quality of stock on the market?  This is what I thought people meant when they talk about guppies being weakened due to inbreeding.
 
Ethics applies if you're talking about hobbyists or small-scale breeders but for commercial fish-farms you need regulation and standards instead.
 
Perhaps I'm getting confused about whether we're discussing mass-produced guppies in the LFS or selectively bred fancy show guppies.
 
With fish like guppies and platies everything matters, especially if the offspring is landing in a fish shop. They breed way too fast and if the next handler also decides to chance breeding them, then that's how a bad line ends up spread around. Multiply that by a number of years and you've got the reasons why specifically popular fast breeding fish like guppies can be found in shops being of very bad quality from all perspectives. We surely aren't buying properly bred guppies because they still aren't cheap, but some sort of random bred stuff mostly by an unknown breeder or hobbyists.
 
It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular Daize, or rather... everyone really! Anyone who breeds should take more responsibility for what they are doing to the species. Its all very well thinking 'well.. I am just one person...' when everyone else is thinking that same thing, including the big producers because after all.... they are only one of many wholesale sale producers!! It all builds up eventually....
 
And its not just livebearers or any particular species of fish, that's why I didn't write anything much specific to fish, its animals in general!
 
People just don't want to stand up and take responsibility for their own behaviour any more. And that is also a very generalised statement! Look at all the poor behaviours that are passed off and blamed on something like a poor upbringing, poor environment etc. No one wants to admit to being wrong. Ever, it's easier to sit back and leave it to someone else or assume someone else will make the move to sort out the problem. Same as the government get blamed for everything going wrong and whilst poor decisions on their part do often have catastrophic results, they are still often used as scape goats too!
 
You can go a long way in analysing people's apathy and lack of interest in being proactive in protecting the world they live in.
 
MBOU what would you describe as "irresponsible breeding".? If it is allowing siblings or closely related to breed then you are wrong. Many serious fishkeepers breed fish that have specific collection data and have been bred for many generations without new blood, Some from as little as 3 original fish these fish are still in the hobby and have been inbred more than some guppies.We even have fish that are extinct in the wild that are bred the same
Inbreeding is blamed for too many things by aquarists.
How many times do we see that peoples guppies have died because they are inbred but all their other fish are ok and their water is perfect
I would say that majority of deaths are down to husbandry not inbreeding, Many people have "community tanks" which are more like the united nations with fish from all different continents and water types all put in a "community tank" with perfect water
But it is the humble guppy that seems to suffer the blame ,Again I would say it is the methods that they use to breed them for maximun yield that is to blame not just inbreeding
inbreeding does play a part but it is used as a scapegoat for many more reasons that are usually down to our fishkeeping practises
 
As I said in my posts, irresponsible breeding is down to people breeding species for unnecessary reasons without doing any research, with no goals in mind and with no hope to improving the line or the species.
 
I never once mentioned anything about inbreeding so I don't know why you feel that I did. Inbreeding is something necessary for establishing useful or important traits into a line like longevity of life, size, health and other important genetic factors for the line and the species. Inbreeding carried out by any old person who walking into a shop and thinks "yeah, babies are cute... I think I will buy some male and female guppies from that tank and breed them", that is irresponsible, mainly by default as it wont be people who have done any real research beyond how to put two guppies together to get them to breed. But lack of knowledge doesn't make people less responsible.
 
MBOU said:
As I said in my posts, irresponsible breeding is down to people breeding species for unnecessary reasons without doing any research, with no goals in mind and with no hope to improving the line or the species.
 
I never once mentioned anything about inbreeding so I don't know why you feel that I did. Inbreeding is something necessary for establishing useful or important traits into a line like longevity of life, size, health and other important genetic factors for the line and the species. Inbreeding carried out by any old person who walking into a shop and thinks "yeah, babies are cute... I think I will buy some male and female guppies from that tank and breed them", that is irresponsible, mainly by default as it wont be people who have done any real research beyond how to put two guppies together to get them to breed. But lack of knowledge doesn't make people less responsible.
Why must the person be old not young or middle aged? :p

Sorry, just had to say soemthing... ;)
 
haha :p I did actually consider rephrasing it in case someone misunderstood, wasn't expecting it to be deliberately misunderstood :p
 

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