Hi all im new to the forum and have a few questions hopefully you folks could help me with. Rite here goes, i recently set up a new tank on Monday and with the advice of the lfs was told an apparantly easy way to cycle the tank was with tetra safe start, he said that all i needed to do was get my tank upto temperature dechlorinate the water add the correct amount of safe start and i could add fish straight away (i bought 4 small tiger barbs on). I took his advice seeing as iam new to keeping fish and i done what he had said. I took some water tests today for the 1st time and here's my readings ph 7.0-7.2 ammonia 0.75 - 1.00 nitrite 1.00 nitrate 5.0. I was wondering what i should do next as i know the ammonia and the nitrite should be 0 and this is what the guy at the lfs said the safe start would achieve, i done a 15% water change today (before tests) as this is also what i was told buy the guy at my lfs to do. Question is what i should do next, should i do another water change tomorrow? Or will i wait a few days? Any help very much appreciated! Thanx
Help Needed
- Thread starter S.Sanders
- Start date
MOW4T
Fish Crazy
i dont fully understand cycling but this link should help until someone else can http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306Hello and welcome. You are now in a Fish In Cycle. Go to the Beginner's resource section to learn more about cycling and general tank care: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/. You can cycle a tank with fish but it is much harder on the fish and on you. If at all possible, see if the LFS will let you return the fish and then you can do a fish less cycle. If that is not possible, or you don't want to return them, then prepare yourself for lots and lots of water changes.
First, do an immediate water change, your ammonia levels are too high for fish in the tank. You want to keep them as close to 0ppm as possible. I would say do 50% water change now, recheck you all your ammonia and nitrite levels about an hour later and do another water change if needed. You will need to check your water stats at a minimum of once a day, twice a day would be better (every 12 hours) more frequently if you needed to do any water changes. When you do your water changes make sure you treat the new water with dechlorinator before adding it to the tank, also you want to try to match your new water to the tank water temperature as close as possible before you add it to the tank.
Second, check out the fish-in cycling and nitrogen cycle articles located in the beginner's resource section (link above). This will get you started understanding the importance of cycling and how it works.
Third, make sure you have good liquid test kit, API and Hagen Nutrafin seem to be the most popular on this forum. API kits are at every LFS in the US or on-line, if you are in the UK it might be easier for you to find the Hagen Nutrafin and/or the Salifert tests. But what you want is a liquid test kit for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite and pH. Additional tests you might want to get is KH and GH (check this post to help clarify these things http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/315183-liquid-test-kits-how-to-perform-and-read-tests/page__p__2611010__fromsearch__1&#entry2611010 it is not a perfect article but hopefully it will help).
Finally test your tap water, it seems odd that you would have nitrates this early on but not impossible, you want to see if you have nitrates (and nitrites) in your tap water. This is important because you don't want to let your tank water nitrates go much more than 15-20 ppm higher than your tap water, if they do then you want to do a water change (Please more experienced people correct me on that 15-20 ppm higher than tap for nitrates if I am wrong).
Also, as for Tetra Safe Start, or the similar one by Dr. Tims, is a "bacteria in a bottle" product, and generally they do not work. You will hear people swear by them, but truthfully they really don't do that much. I used the Dr. Tims product, it shaved a few day, 2 or 3 tops, off of my cycling time but that is it. I know lots of people who have tried the various "bacteria in a bottle" products and some swear by it some say don't waste your money. Both Tetra Safe Start and Dr. Tims are difficult to locate in stores as most stores do not like to carry them. Although both these products do not need to be refrigerated, they are still temperature sensitive, too hot or too cold will kill the live bacteria. Consequently you usually need to order them on-line, they run about $30 (with shipping) for a 2 oz bottle, and again, if they are not shipped properly (referring to temp stability) you run the risk of getting dead product. Also, depending on how the product is maintained in the warehouse the product good be dead before it even ships to you. Just too many variables to ensure you get live bacteria with those products. My suggestion is don't waste your money, but if you really want to try them they won't hurt anything. Your best bet is to see if you can get some mature media from a friend, or you can check out the media donation section in the Beginners Resource Centre to see if anyone lives close to you.
Hope that helps get you started and good luck.
EDIT: Sorry upon re-reading your post I saw where you did a 15% water change, chances are that is not enough. Once your tanks are cycled you should be doing a minimum of 25% weekly anyway. Retest your water now, if levels are still high do 50%. You can do multiple water changes in one day, just leave about an hour in between so you can re-test your water.
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/. You can cycle a tank with fish but it is much harder on the fish and on you. If at all possible, see if the LFS will let you return the fish and then you can do a fish less cycle. If that is not possible, or you don't want to return them, then prepare yourself for lots and lots of water changes. First, do an immediate water change, your ammonia levels are too high for fish in the tank. You want to keep them as close to 0ppm as possible. I would say do 50% water change now, recheck you all your ammonia and nitrite levels about an hour later and do another water change if needed. You will need to check your water stats at a minimum of once a day, twice a day would be better (every 12 hours) more frequently if you needed to do any water changes. When you do your water changes make sure you treat the new water with dechlorinator before adding it to the tank, also you want to try to match your new water to the tank water temperature as close as possible before you add it to the tank.
Second, check out the fish-in cycling and nitrogen cycle articles located in the beginner's resource section (link above). This will get you started understanding the importance of cycling and how it works.
Third, make sure you have good liquid test kit, API and Hagen Nutrafin seem to be the most popular on this forum. API kits are at every LFS in the US or on-line, if you are in the UK it might be easier for you to find the Hagen Nutrafin and/or the Salifert tests. But what you want is a liquid test kit for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite and pH. Additional tests you might want to get is KH and GH (check this post to help clarify these things http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/315183-liquid-test-kits-how-to-perform-and-read-tests/page__p__2611010__fromsearch__1&#entry2611010 it is not a perfect article but hopefully it will help).Finally test your tap water, it seems odd that you would have nitrates this early on but not impossible, you want to see if you have nitrates (and nitrites) in your tap water. This is important because you don't want to let your tank water nitrates go much more than 15-20 ppm higher than your tap water, if they do then you want to do a water change (Please more experienced people correct me on that 15-20 ppm higher than tap for nitrates if I am wrong).
Also, as for Tetra Safe Start, or the similar one by Dr. Tims, is a "bacteria in a bottle" product, and generally they do not work. You will hear people swear by them, but truthfully they really don't do that much. I used the Dr. Tims product, it shaved a few day, 2 or 3 tops, off of my cycling time but that is it. I know lots of people who have tried the various "bacteria in a bottle" products and some swear by it some say don't waste your money. Both Tetra Safe Start and Dr. Tims are difficult to locate in stores as most stores do not like to carry them. Although both these products do not need to be refrigerated, they are still temperature sensitive, too hot or too cold will kill the live bacteria. Consequently you usually need to order them on-line, they run about $30 (with shipping) for a 2 oz bottle, and again, if they are not shipped properly (referring to temp stability) you run the risk of getting dead product. Also, depending on how the product is maintained in the warehouse the product good be dead before it even ships to you. Just too many variables to ensure you get live bacteria with those products. My suggestion is don't waste your money, but if you really want to try them they won't hurt anything. Your best bet is to see if you can get some mature media from a friend, or you can check out the media donation section in the Beginners Resource Centre to see if anyone lives close to you.
Hope that helps get you started and good luck.
EDIT: Sorry upon re-reading your post I saw where you did a 15% water change, chances are that is not enough. Once your tanks are cycled you should be doing a minimum of 25% weekly anyway. Retest your water now, if levels are still high do 50%. You can do multiple water changes in one day, just leave about an hour in between so you can re-test your water.
K-Holed
Fishaholic
It's strange that they should tell you to do a water change BEFORE testing ... it stands to reason that you will get lower readings directly after a water change, as you're diluting the waste.
I know I thought that at first too, but you want to test before, espically during cycling, to see how much water you need to change. An ammonia reading of say 2 ppm would need a much larger percentage of water to be changed than say a reading of 0.5ppm. Testing before will hopefully save you having to do another water change afterwards.
Welcome to the forum S Sanders.
You have been the victim of typical poor advice from a LFS that just wants to sell fish and don't care what it does to them. Let's begin at the beginning. There are no commercial products that are worth any cash money for cycling a tank except two of them. The first is dechlorinator for the water change. The second is a good liquid type test kit so that you will know when to do your water change. You now have lethal but slow acting levels of poison in your tank. It might take a day or two for the ammonia to kill your fish at that level and I would be surprised if your fish are swimming right at that nitrite level. They are either lethargic or are swimming with their noses at the surface and gasping for air. You can forget the 15% water change and start by doing a 75% water change. You need to get the poison levels below 0.25 ppm of each poison. At that level the fish can survive in health while the tank's filter cycles.
Nitrites affect fish in much the same way that carbon monoxide affects mammals. No matter how much oxygen is in the water, the fish's blood cannot use it because the nitrite takes up the space on the hemoglobin. The quick first aid is also the same. The victim needs to be removed from the asphyxiant so that they can recover normal oxygen absorption function. That is where the truly large water change comes in. When I find myself with a bit of measurable nitrite in my water, I drain the tank until the fish are almost flopping around on the substrate and refill with dechlorinated and temperature matched water. The fish always look much better after that in a very short time, it helps when you can breathe. If you choose to go large on the water change, be sure to unplug the heater and the filter. Neither one does very well out of water. You could do small water changes as Rebrn suggested, but it will take several to clear the poisons and a single really large change will help as much or more.
Once you have dealt with the immediate first aid issue, you can stop and read up on a fish-in cycle, which is where you have ended up. In addition to the links from Rebrn, I carry around a link in my signature area to the fish-in cycle thread because so many people arrive, much as you have, with the need to read up on it after terrible LFS advice.
You have been the victim of typical poor advice from a LFS that just wants to sell fish and don't care what it does to them. Let's begin at the beginning. There are no commercial products that are worth any cash money for cycling a tank except two of them. The first is dechlorinator for the water change. The second is a good liquid type test kit so that you will know when to do your water change. You now have lethal but slow acting levels of poison in your tank. It might take a day or two for the ammonia to kill your fish at that level and I would be surprised if your fish are swimming right at that nitrite level. They are either lethargic or are swimming with their noses at the surface and gasping for air. You can forget the 15% water change and start by doing a 75% water change. You need to get the poison levels below 0.25 ppm of each poison. At that level the fish can survive in health while the tank's filter cycles.
Nitrites affect fish in much the same way that carbon monoxide affects mammals. No matter how much oxygen is in the water, the fish's blood cannot use it because the nitrite takes up the space on the hemoglobin. The quick first aid is also the same. The victim needs to be removed from the asphyxiant so that they can recover normal oxygen absorption function. That is where the truly large water change comes in. When I find myself with a bit of measurable nitrite in my water, I drain the tank until the fish are almost flopping around on the substrate and refill with dechlorinated and temperature matched water. The fish always look much better after that in a very short time, it helps when you can breathe. If you choose to go large on the water change, be sure to unplug the heater and the filter. Neither one does very well out of water. You could do small water changes as Rebrn suggested, but it will take several to clear the poisons and a single really large change will help as much or more.
Once you have dealt with the immediate first aid issue, you can stop and read up on a fish-in cycle, which is where you have ended up. In addition to the links from Rebrn, I carry around a link in my signature area to the fish-in cycle thread because so many people arrive, much as you have, with the need to read up on it after terrible LFS advice.
Many thanks for the replies folks! I have just done a 50% water change and will retest in around an hour. One decent piece of advice i did get from my lfs was to spend a little extra on a water testing kit. I got the API one just so you know what iam using. If iam still getting readings of ammonia and nitrite how long should i wait before carrying out another water change? Thanks for the link to the fish in cycle i will have a good read through and iam sure it will be invaluable thank god for the internet and these type of forums. Shame my LFS was just after my cash and not bothered about the welfare of the fish. Will be taking my business elsewere in future!
Oh no problem, I was in the same boat, bad advice from the LFS. I also use the API and have had no problems with it, just make sure when doing the nitrate test you really shake bottle #2 up really well, even bang it a few times on a hard surface. If you don't then you could get inaccurate results. As for your next water change, you can do it after you re-test your water in an hour. If you are comfortable doing a larger (ie 90%) water change as OM47 suggested, that is perfectly fine, and in all honesty probably better. I am new to fish-keeping my self (just 3 months in) and am not comfortable doing that large of a water change, not that it will cause harm to the fish, but the actual physical part of doing it (I am always nervous I will take out too much water). But if you are comfortable doing that then go for it, OM47 knows his stuff, and I would trust his advice over mine any day. But you will be OK to do another one in about an hour, but only do it if you need to. If your ammonia and nitrite is below 0.25 ppm then you should be OK to leave it until tomorrow morning. The other thing you may want to start doing is only feeding your fish once a day rather than twice a day, having less food in the tank (and in the fish less food = less waste) will help to keep your ammonia levels down, and the fish will be OK with once a day feeding, you won't starve them or anything.
You are doing fine Rebrn. It takes a little experience to gain the confidence to do a 90% change without being told to do so.
The advice on keeping the feeding to only what the fish must have is good advice for a fish-in cycle.
The advice on keeping the feeding to only what the fish must have is good advice for a fish-in cycle.
Thanx again for your input folks, Ive been feeding once every evening so would it be ok to feed every other day? Also heres some readings i took half an hour ago. PH 7.0-7.2 Ammonia 0.50 Nitrite 0.50 Nitrate 0-5. Will do another 50% change 1st thing before work. Should i do as much as 75% would this be ok?
Yep you should be fine with 75%, like OM47 said, you can do as much as 90% if needed. As for feeding every other evening, I think you should be ok with that, but don't quote me on it. You may want to wait on that and let the more experienced people say for sure.
Thanks will do a 75% change in the morning and test when i get home from work, I also got speaking to a friend whos uncle keeps fish and he is going to ask if he could donate some mature media to me to speed the process up a bit.
That mature media could end up saving you hauling hundreds of gallons of water. It will often speed up the cycle more than a little. I clone my filters from my healthy tanks and often am ready to stock a fishless cycled tank in under a week.
Hello again folks, Rite i done another water change this morning of 75 % did a test after work and readings were PH 7.0, Ammonia0-0.25 (hard to read exactly was more yellow than the really light coloured yellow but not quite the next shade up if that makes sense lol?) Nitrite 0-2.5, Nitrate 0-5. Did another water change 2 hours ago and took some readings again the were - PH 7.0 Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 , Nitrate 0-5. What should i do next? Should i retest again before work and do another water change if needed? Also how long is the norm to keep this up until the tank cycles? as it dosnt look like i am going to get some donated media after all 
. Also thought id add that the fish look nice and healthy and are very active so hopefully iam putting some of the mistakes the eejit at my LFS encouraged me to make.
. Also thought id add that the fish look nice and healthy and are very active so hopefully iam putting some of the mistakes the eejit at my LFS encouraged me to make.
Without any mature media, this can go on for anywhere between 4 and 8 weeks. Once you have the zeros, test again in the morning, but you probably will only need to do one large change per day.
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