Gonna give plants another shot

[Fiji]

Hey Everyone,

I haven't tried plants in a few years due to them completely messing up my 55 gallon and burning a hole through my wallet, but I think I'm ready to give it another try. I have a few questions to ask before I actually make any purchases.

1) I was planning on using a Finnex Stingray Aquarium LED Light for the 55 gallon but I don't know if I should buy the 48" version or two 24" strips. The length of my tank is 48" but there is a center brace so I'm not sure if the 48" would fit correctly. I also believe the 30" will fit my 29 gallon fine.

2) I'd like to start off easy with low light plants and no co2 right now. I was looking at coffee leaf anubias, anubias nana, hornwort, frogbit, java moss, water wisteria, and water sprite. Is this a good list of easy, low-light plants?

3) What is a good site to buy plants from? In the past I've bought from dustinsfishtanks but his prices are so expensive. I have looked at aquabid, but the choices are rather slim.

Any suggestions are welcomed.

Thank you.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Welcome back to plants! I have the 48" Finnex Planted+ 24/7 on my 60g - same footprint as your 55g, just a tad taller. I like/love the surrealism of the 24/7 with sunrise to sunset/moonlight.

> I suggest you go with the 48" as the center brace isn't much of an issue and 2-24" lights wouldn't mount well in the center. Also, be sure to get a glass canape as it protects the light and prevents jumpers.

> The plants you listed are fine for low tech and there are many more like Jungle Val, Crypts, Amazon Swords, Dwarf Sag... Remember you'll need some modest fertilizer. Seachem Flourish is good and then there is Easy Green (aquarium Coop) and I hear Thrive is good. For rooted plants, you'll want root tabs.

> Where to buy??? Well cheap plants often aren't good and good plants often aren't cheap!
There are good tissue culture plants at your local Petsmart and maybe Petco, Be careful though as they have some plants meant for ponds that are not intended to be fully immersed.
There are good deals on evil bay, but it's a bit of a crap shoot - I'm sure I inherited some BBA from some jungle val I bought there!.
There are hobbyists that sell plants on plantedtank.net.
Cory sells plants on aquariumcoop.com but I haven't purchased plants from there yet.
Dustin sells a starter set that's not too bad.
Jacob of jacobsaquaium sells plants - seems like a standup guy, but I haven't bought plants there either yet.

Good luck! Getting started with plants gouges into the pocketbook a little but adds a whole new dimension to the appearance, realism, and water purity worth the investment.

 

[Fiji]

Welcome back to plants! I have the 48" Finnex Planted+ 24/7 on my 60g - same footprint as your 55g, just a tad taller. I like/love the surrealism of the 24/7 with sunrise to sunset/moonlight.

> I suggest you go with the 48" as the center brace isn't much of an issue and 2-24" lights wouldn't mount well in the center. Also, be sure to get a glass canape as it protects the light and prevents jumpers.

> The plants you listed are fine for low tech and there are many more like Jungle Val, Crypts, Amazon Swords, Dwarf Sag... Remember you'll need some modest fertilizer. Seachem Flourish is good and then there is Easy Green (aquarium Coop) and I hear Thrive is good. For rooted plants, you'll want root tabs.

> Where to buy??? Well cheap plants often aren't good and good plants often aren't cheap!
There are good tissue culture plants at your local Petsmart and maybe Petco, Be careful though as they have some plants meant for ponds that are not intended to be fully immersed.
There are good deals on evil bay, but it's a bit of a crap shoot - I'm sure I inherited some BBA from some jungle val I bought there!.
There are hobbyists that sell plants on plantedtank.net.
Cory sells plants on aquariumcoop.com but I haven't purchased plants from there yet.
Dustin sells a starter set that's not too bad.
Jacob of jacobsaquaium sells plants - seems like a standup guy, but I haven't bought plants there either yet.

Good luck! Getting started with plants gouges into the pocketbook a little but adds a whole new dimension to the appearance, realism, and water purity worth the investment.

I am definitely switching from plastic to glass tops for my tanks since I'm also changing from fluorescent to LEDs.

Could I use Seachem Excel instead of Flourish? I was planning on using root tabs for non-floating plants.

I checked out those sites and them seem to have pretty good selections.

Thanks!

 

[NickAu]

Could I use Seachem Excel instead of Flourish?

I wont use Excel in my tank its too toxic. Gluteraldehyde is a strong BIOCIDE, related to formaldehyde.

If you want some ideas on low tech low fert plants check out My sorority rebuild, http://www.fishforums.net/threads/my-sorority-rebuild.445001/page-10

 

[AbbeysDad]

NickAu is correct - Excel is NOT a fertilizer. It contains Glutaraldehyde, A chemical used to STERILIZE heat sensitive medical and dental equipment! In the aquarium, it decomposes to provide a source of carbon for plants, while at the same time kills most algae. It can't be good for fish and I wonder if it isn't potentially hard on the beneficial bacteria. Having 'said' this, I have used it to combat nasty black beard algae...a battle I hope I've nearly won.
Plants need both macronutrients and micronutrients. macros are nPk (nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus) and micros are like vitamins and minerals (e.g. iron , magnese , chlorine , copper , boron , molybdenum , cobalt , nickel).
Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive is necessary micronutrients, but you also need some macros which is why I suggested the others. But as I mentioned, in the established aquarium, fish food and fish waste will decompose and provide organic fertilizer for the plants so additives can be used modestly just to better ensure good plant growth and health. Attached is a shot of my 60g low tech planted tank...

For some really awesome photo's of low tech planted tanks, you might coax member Byron as he has some truly amazing aquariums!

 

[Byron]

I agree with what AbbeysDad has suggested. But I do have a comment on fertilizer.

I have all low-tech planted tanks (eight) and I only use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. I also use their Flourish Tabs for thee larger sword plants and the red tiger lotus. Nutrients occur from two sources, fish/fish food and water changes. The hard minerals (calcium, magnesium) are largely via the water changes, so we need t know your GH of the source water (and tank if different). These macro nutrients are minimal in the liquid Flourish but that may be sufficient, as AD mentioned. Even with my very soft water (zero GH) I am able to manage with the liquid and tabs. It all depends upon the balance, which is largely governed by the light.

You can increase algae with too much light, or with too much fertilizer. I've experienced both. The goal is to find the balance. There should never be need to add nitrogen, if fish are present; plants prefer ammonia/ammonium for their nitrogen and there is usually enough of this depending upon fish load, feedings, and plant species/numbers. Oxygen, hydrogen and carbon (CO2) are also usually sufficient naturally. Phosphorus from fish food alone is sufficient. Of course, I am considering all this in connection to natural or low-tech systems; high tech is a different ballgame.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Of course Byron is correct. Plants much prefer ammonia/ammonium as their N2 source so assuming your bio-load and feeding practices are sufficient relative to the plant mass, nPk may be organically supplied. In some planted tanks (such as the Walstad method) no additive ferts are ever used. And along these lines, partial water changes may be adjusted in duration and/or volume to control both pollution and water column nutrient levels. Finding balance can be a bit of an art and requires patience...but once you find the balance that works the tank becomes a beautiful thing with minor routine maintenance!

 

[Fiji]

So I'm a little confused. I thought plants need additional co2 (Excel) and fertilizers (Flourish/root tabs) to thrive? What could I substitute excel with to compensate for c02?

I don't know the exact water hardness of my tanks but I do know that my tap water is very hard. The pH of all three tanks fluctuates between 7.4 and 8.2, generally 8.2 in the cichlid tank.

 

[AbbeysDad]

So I'm a little confused. I thought plants need additional co2 (Excel) and fertilizers (Flourish/root tabs) to thrive? What could I substitute excel with to compensate for c02?

There are different methods in planted tanks. High tech uses Co2, bright light, and lots of ferts to stimulate rapid plant growth. Low tech does not use Co2, somewhat lower light, and less ferts. Admittedly, plants will grow faster in high tech tanks and frankly some plants (e.g.many 'carpet' plants) will only grow well under very bright light. However, there are many, many plants that do very well in low tech tanks...mine is one and you saw the picture.

In my case, I have a bubble bar that runs 24/7 on one side of the tank (and I let algae grow behind the bubbles). Although this is considered a "no no" in high tech as it potentially drives off Co2, I believe in my low tech tank, that in addition to increased O2, it also injects Co2 as there is Co2 in the air we breath along with O2 and the bubbles that break the surface causes gas equalization of O2/Co2. During the daylight, plants use Co2 and give off O2 while at night the plants use O2 and give off Co2. My bubbler keeps levels more stable.

Although I've used Excel/Metricide (along with hydrogen peroxide) to fight ugly black beard algae, I REALLY don't like it. As I mentioned, glutaraldehyde is a chemical used to STERILIZE heat sensitive medical/dental equipment. It kills algae and some plants and simply can't be good for fish. If you were to over dose, you'd kill everything in the tank. it's claim is that it breaks down to provide a source of organic carbon for plants. But most low tech tanks just don't need it.... as long as you're patient with slower growing plants.

Tank on,
-Mike

 

[Byron]

So I'm a little confused. I thought plants need additional co2 (Excel) and fertilizers (Flourish/root tabs) to thrive? What could I substitute excel with to compensate for c02?

I don't know the exact water hardness of my tanks but I do know that my tap water is very hard. The pH of all three tanks fluctuates between 7.4 and 8.2, generally 8.2 in the cichlid tank.

I'll just add to what Mike said, to perhaps explain a couple things a bit more.

On the GH and pH, these are related but are two very different things. GH (general or total hardness) tells us something about the dissolved minerals, primarily calcium and magnesium, in the water. This is something you need to know as there are fish that need these minerals and fish that do not and both groups will have problems if the GH is not within their respective range. The source water (tap) is all we need, so you should be able to find this from the data on your municipal water authority's website.

The pH is often reflective of the GH, but not always. Harder water tends to have a higher pH, while soft water tends to be lower in pH due to the acidity from organics. The KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) serves as a "buffer" to prevent pH fluctuations, so it is worth knowing this too (for the tap water).

On the CO2. As Mike said, in low-tech aquaria we rely on natural occurring CO2. Fish, plants and many species of bacteria respire, taking up oxygen and releasing CO2. This provides some, but not the majority. Most CO2 occurs from the breakdown of organics, and this is primarily in the substrate. There is a lot more CO2 produced here than many realize.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the CO2/oxygen balance changes in aquaria with live plants during every 24 hour period. During the darkness, plants respire normally, taking up oxygen and releasing CO2. During daylight, this continues the same but if the light is of sufficient intensity and spectrum to drive photosynthesis, plants take up CO2 and release oxygen at the same time, and if the photosynthesis is strong enough (this depends upon the plant species, numbers, light intensity and nutrient availability) this photosynthetic exchange will be much greater then the respiration exchange, so more CO2 is taken up than what is given off. So what happens is what we term the diurnal exchange. CO2 builds up in the water during darkness, and is depleted from the water during daylight.

The level of CO2 produced/used depends upon the number of plants, the species (fast growing plants have a much faster exchange than slow-growers), the light intensity and thee availability of nutrients. I mentioned the balance previously--plants can only photosynthesis if everything they need is available, and in sufficient levels for their species.

So it is possible to have an aquarium with fish and plants the produces sufficient CO2 for those plants without any artificial addition. Adding diffused CO2 means increasing the light to balance, and the other nutrients. If any of this is insufficient for the plants, they will not photosynthesize as much and algae will take advantage.

I fully concur with others' comments about the danger of using Excel (API's CO2 Booster is the same stuff, glutaraldehyde). These will kill algae, they will kill some plants species outright, and if overdosed have the ability to kill plants, fish and bacteria. After all, any chemical that disinfects sufficiently to be used in hospitals to clean surgical instruments is going to be a big risk. And every substance added to aquarium water will get inside fish and this is always detrimental to some degree, but that is another big topic.

Byron.

 

[Fiji]

The KH/GH of my cichlid tank fluctuates between 179 and 215 ppm according to the API test kit. My other tanks should be slightly lower because they do not contain limestone rock.

 

[Byron]

The KH/GH of my cichlid tank fluctuates between 179 and 215 ppm according to the API test kit. My other tanks should be slightly lower because they do not contain limestone rock.

We will assume there may be sufficient calcium and magnesium in your source water, though you should still find out the number (for those non-cichlid tanks). If the GH is at 4 dGH (71 ppm) or higher, this is adequate according to the experts, meaning that you won't "need" to bee added much more depending upon the actual GH. In which case, Flourish Comprehensive Supplement will have sufficient.