Doseing Ei

[john starkey]

Hi all, i starting doseing following the EI method the day after i planted, now i have just been reading jeff walmsley in the pfk setting up with Jeff and he says not to dose for the first month? is this normall or is this cause it suits him ? regards john

 

[nry]

Jeff doesn' t use EI though - different methods for different people.

 

[john starkey]

Hi nry, so its ok then that i started the next day? regards john

 

[George Farmer]

Yes, you can dose straight away, as long as your CO2 is 30ppm.

Any algae and look at more water changes, better CO2.

Some otos and Amano shrimp will help with early algae issues too.

Jeff's methods aren't suited to your set-up. Unless you fancy tearing up your substrate, installing a heater cable, garden soil, rain water, mercury vapour lighting and running a puny filter with nitrate and phosphate removal media... Oh, and algae.

 

[RadaR]

Jeff's methods aren't suited to your set-up. Unless you fancy tearing up your substrate, installing a heater cable, garden soil, rain water, mercury vapour lighting and running a puny filter with nitrate and phosphate removal media... Oh, and algae.

Hahaha! George, you should have seen my face when I was reading that in this month's PFK.
Good job on your section by the way

 

[nry]

I can't be derogatory about the article, Jeff clearly has no algae issues in the final tank, his methods work but as we say are not suited to everyone.

 

[George Farmer]

I can't be derogatory about the article, Jeff clearly has no algae issues in the final tank, his methods work but as we say are not suited to everyone.

I wholeheartedly agree. I didn't mean to be overly negative about the article per se, just that John's set up is vastly different to be able to use Jeff's advocated techniques.

"My" methods aren't suitable for all either. But if you want to use hard tap water with NO3 and PO4, like most UK sources, then...

On the algae issue. Jeff admits he always has algae in his tanks. But it is manageable. That's fair enough.

You'll may see less algae in my tanks... Even though I add NO3 and PO4. Crazy talk eh?

 

[SuperColey1]

Hijack here. sorry.

George, With you being localish to me I assume you have Anglian water. Do you make any adjustments to your EI dosing due to the high phosphates and nitrates in the water already?

i.e. do you reduce the amount you dose or follow Tom's beleif of 'It doesn't matter how much excess as long as there is excess?

Just asking because I foolishly made my last mix of fert solution using tap water rather than DI and suddenly have some real algae problems. Probably CO2 based but wondered if the increased nutrient from tap+powder in my solutions may have caused it.

Andy

 

[George Farmer]

Mixing your dry ferts with tap instead of RO/DI will make negligable difference, as I assume you're only adding millilitres of solution per dose.

You can adjust EI dosing to compensate for NO3 and PO4 in tap, but IME it isn't necessary providing you have good CO2 and heavy planting.

FYI my tap is NO3 20ppm and PO4 5ppm. I add 2ml per day of Tropica+ (NP) in my 125 litre 1wpg fern/crypt/anubias tank. 1/3 water change per week.

 

[SuperColey1]

I also have 125L but 2.5WPG. I am dosing 40ml KNO3 solution and 15ml KH2PO4 solution mixed from JamesC/TomB guidelines!!! 3 x a week and 6ml TPN 3 x a week.

I assume that if my water is the same as yours that after water change I already have 20ppm-N/5ppm-P. Then when I add I bring this level up to 40ppm/8ppm (sounds a lot) I haven't tested for N yet which I will do tonight to see where I currently stand on N before tomorrows 'rest day'

My CO2 checker is mushy pea green so I assume that it is OK.

The problem is loads of plants are suffering the blak staghorn style beards around their leaves, which when I last had this was poor CO2. With my drop checker being the opposite side to the Rhinox I am assuming the circulation is OK.

Sorry to hijack John but I am sure this will probs also help yourself too, if not now in the future. lol

Andy

 

[plantbrain]

I can't be derogatory about the article, Jeff clearly has no algae issues in the final tank, his methods work but as we say are not suited to everyone.

And they do work, it's just much easier for the other methods is all, but the method works not for the reasons Jeff claimed.
I have tanks and have lab growth chambers with no water column nutrients other than dissolved gases.

The plants do pretty well with only sediment fertilization at the light levels, (200 micromols. about 1/10 full sun)
Ludwigia "cuba" does very nicely in CA river Delta mud.

While I can and have done Jeff's "method" for about 20 years and have grown many plants and ruled out many assumptions, he's not the done the same in return.

Plants can and do get nutrients from both locations and the higher the light, the more demand from eithe rlocation.

So since both methods work as nutrient sources, why not combine the two to provide a synegistic approach?

That way you get more out of the sediment and more out of the water column and more resilelent approach to the method.

This "Either or" business is the zealot approach.
You can/should exlpore both sides, not just one.

He's not limiting algae via the water clolumn, anyone of sound frame and mind can clearly see that cannot possibly be true.
So why no dosing for the first month?
NH4.

Once that is gone an settled down, then you can dose without algae.
If he soaked the sediment for 3 weeks in a shallow tray, boiled it, added Zeolite to the filter etc, then he could dose right away.

BTW, my water column pure tanks have no algae. I'll post some pics later.
You need to isolate both sources to explore their effects, you cannot say much if you have not done that and proven it to yourself.

So when starting a new tank:

Add mulm
Cycle filter in a bucket fir 2-3 weeks first+ NH4
Soak NH4 sediment for 3 weeks/boil 10 min/bake 1 hour
Do 2-3x a week 50-70% water change
Add Zeolite to filter(not if you do Fishless cycling though!)
Add lots of plant biomass from day one.

Then you can dose right away.

You'll note, I did not disagree with Jeff's method, I actually know more about it than he does and what works, why and which parts are contributing to successes and failures, as well as how to augment it.

The goal is to understand plants, not a peeing contest. I do not ask folks to place me into a position of authority, just prove it to yourselves and then you'll know and then I tell folks how to go about it and see what they think.
I can give a person a deer for dinner or...... I can teach them how to hunt and never need to give them deer meat again, I prefer the latter.

The method proscribed suggest a basic tenet that suggest we can limit algae via PO4 and NO3 and still provide plants without enough to grow well. However, this is easily falsifiable thus must be rejected as a reason for algae limitation.

But........that does not imply that the plants do not have a source of nutrients(fish waste and sediment) and cannot grow well etc under some conditions, nor that a method is successful or not.
We fail, not the method and we make assumptions about things and limit ourselves and own understanding.

Making this distinction is often lost in the fray.
Plants can grow in both lean and rich nutrients for both the sediments and the water column.
Why folks want to claim one is better than the other, "Either or" is beyond me.

EI is simple, that's all, there are many methods for many goals, but to claim one causes algae as reason is balony.
And that's why, rather than saying PPS, EI, non CO2,m Jeff's method etc are wrong, bad, do not work etc these folks incur my full wrath

Our goals have a set of assumptions, those define a method(which are assumed to be able to be successful) we chose.
Some think leaner is better.
some think richer is better.
Some sediments, some water column
Some both
Some like lower light
Some garden, some scape
Some like non CO2
Some don't care and wonder why the debate at all.
Some wonder why Fish hobbyists even keep fish.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[garuf]

... and some like me are glad we have such a knowledgeable person in our midsts who is happy to teach us what to do and where we went wrong in achieving our goals, the only problem is human nature, the assumption that our system is best, think when your at first school and your bag was the best no matter what anyone else said, its just the same.
id like to thank Tom for bringing to our attention different methods and new knowledge that otherwise we would never have had. I wouldn't be fish keeping if I thought that the only way to get good plant growth was to collect rain water and use garden soil, I use EI because it suits me not because its right or wrong. EI is a good system its just not to everyone's tastes they're not wrong either nor are we its just like being at school again and assuming that our system is the best because we use it. At the end of the day as long as plants grow and algae is inhibited we should accept that it is successful on these merits not the amount of work taken to achieve them.




(rant rant rant feel free to ignore if it doesn't make sence.)

 

[plantbrain]

I use EI because it suits me not because its right or wrong. EI is a good system its just not to everyone's tastes they're not wrong either nor are we its just like being at school again and assuming that our system is the best because we use it. At the end of the day as long as plants grow and algae is inhibited we should accept that it is successful on these merits not the amount of work taken to achieve them.

I think you might feel that "Right or wrong" is the wrong attitude

Haha, how's that for irony?

However, learning about the other methods and trying to master them is a really really good way to increase your knowledge and see how you can meet other goals you might have that often change through time. I think trying to master each method, Marine Reefs, macro algae, brackish, Rift cichlids, breeding, planted CO2/non CO2 methods, larger systems and smaller are good goals to become really well rounded and knowledgeable.

Once you master the Blues, then you try Classical, then Reggae, then Polka, then Funk, then etc etc.........all the genra should be considered.

Like music, art etc, do not become a one trick pony

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[garuf]

I use EI because it suits me not because its right or wrong. EI is a good system its just not to everyone's tastes they're not wrong either nor are we its just like being at school again and assuming that our system is the best because we use it. At the end of the day as long as plants grow and algae is inhibited we should accept that it is successful on these merits not the amount of work taken to achieve them.

I think you might feel that "Right or wrong" is the wrong attitude

Haha, how's that for irony?



Regards,
Tom Barr

haha bumbled into that didn't I?
all this talk of one trick ponies made me think about the only thing that I really dislike about EI, the weekly 50% water change.
I'm fully aware that I need to do it to "reset the system" so to speak, BUT is their a way of making it even easier, say a water change every 2-3 weeks? could I get away with running a leaner dosing and/or more frequent rest days where no ferts are added to play catch up? I roughly understand plants needs I just don't fully understand the finer points of dosing. if there's not how do I go about making a automatic water change to help make things run a bit smoother (me being a fool put the tank in the loft ).

 

[Dave Spencer]

It sounds like you want to slow things down Garuf. The greatest driver for growth in your tank will be the lighting, so if you want to slow things down, reduce the lighting. This will slow down growth and, therefore, fertiliser demands. You could then reduce dosing levels to suit.

Personally, I find water changes a chore, but I like the idea of doing them regularly, what with all the airborne particles from cooking, aerosols etc around the house.

Dave.