Dog Control Laws And Pit Bulls

[Tokis-Phoenix]

The following article discusses the current laws on dog control;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6222689.stm

There have been numerous attacks recently on people of all ages, from toddlers to pensioners, some of which have been fatel and others which have left life time scars, not just physically but also mentally on their victims.
5 year old girl dies from attack from pit bull terrior like breed;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6225205.stm

Man badly injured by boxer dog;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/glouces...ire/6225141.stm

Boy attacked by Jack Russel;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6201451.stm

Girl and pet dog killed by Japanese Akita's;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/6164331.stm

Etc...Type "dog attack" into the bbc news search engine and it will bring up hundreds of reports.


I don't doubt that certain types of dogs are more likely to attack people than others, however, i don't think there are any breeds of dogs that can't be trained not to. I think that although the breed of the dog will play a lot in its personality, the main factor of how a dog turns out simply comes down to its owner and how the owner trains, raises and keeps the dog.

I think part of the problem is that there are certain "macho" dogs- bull dogs, staffies, pit bull terriors, rhodesian ridgebacks etc all seem to play a part of the macho dog image. There are so many idiots who specifically go for certain breeds so the dog makes the owner look hard or tough. A certain percentage of dogs bought for these purposes are even sometimes specifically trained to be unsociable or bad tempered. But when it comes down to it, its the owner who should take the responsability for the dog, whatever happens.

I also think a part of the dog violence problem comes down to other factors...Many of the breeds of dogs we know or love today were bred to be working dogs in one way or another (like hunting dogs, sheep dogs, cattle dogs, guard dogs, pest control dogs etc)- these types of dogs are bred to have bags of energy, to run around in feilds working for 10 hours or more a day with no problem. This is the way many breeds have been bred for hundreds, even thousands, of years.
Now days, people are leading less and less active lifestyles and live in more and more populated area's. A sheep dog is not going to thrive in an environment where it spends pretty much its entire day sitting around in a flat or being cuddled, with only a hafl hour walk a day. Sooner or later the dog will become fat and unhealthy, or bored and rebelious against its lifestyle. A lot of dogs rebel and will start to have behavioral problems without enough excercise or mental stimulation in their day to day lives and environments.
These problems can often lead to agression in the dog, there are often many reasons for this.

I also think some people end up with delinquent (sp?) dogs because they are far, far too soft on them. A dog is a dog- it is not a child. That doesn't mean you shouldn't treat the animal with respect, but you should treat it as the animal it is. Dogs in general are very intelligent and sociable animals, if you allow yourself to become a push-over when your dog starts behvaing badly, then the situation will only get worse. A lot of people with serious problem dogs only do so because they either did not know how to enforce their authority and rules on the dog when it was young or new, or because they did not carry out the rules properly or enough.
I've seen people with dogs whose dogs try to shag people's legs all the time and their owners hardly do a thing about it. Such behavior is disgusting and wrong and the dog should be made to understand this as soon as the issue starts.
So yeah...Basically, my point is that;
a. There are breeds which are more challenging than others to keep depending on your lifestyle. Choose your dog carefully and don't just choose it based on its looks/appearance.
b. You are responsable for everything your dog does from the day you own it- if it craps on the pavement in the street, its your responsability to clean it up, if it bites you its your responsability to train it not to, and if you dog injures someone else...Then that is every bit your responsability as everything else.
c. Don't be cruel to dogs, but remember to be tough- stand your ground when enforcing the rules. If you are trying to teach your dog not to do something, don't let it get away with it, as that will either confuse the dog or make it believe it can dominate you etc.
d. If you cannot handle looking after your dog, or simply don't have enough time to exercise it every day and generally look after it, then either find the time to look after it, or take it to a training school, or rehome it. Don't let the problems get worse, especially if you know you will not be capable of handling these situations well or effectively.

Personally i think people need to be a lot more harsh on dog crime- owners are not half as severely punished as they should be i think. If a dog attacks someone it gets killed/put down, but what happens to the owner? The owner has practically signed the dogs death warrent by not training and handling it properly. Its almost a form of animal cruelty, as the dog has to pay for the owners irresponsability and ignorance/arrogance.
Dogs that are untrained or have issues and could potentially pose a danger to anyone should have a muzzle put on them anytime at all times they are out and about so they cannot bite people.

What are your current opinions on the current dog control laws? Do you feel that certain things need to be changed and if so, what?

 

[geo7x]

I agree totally with what youre saying

Another things id like to add is perhaps there hasnt been as much increase in these sort of attacks that has become apparent. The reason being is that after that first attack on a boy there was alot of media coverage. (Now, this isnt the first attack thats ever happened, and perhaps other ones havent been covered.) Then if you remember there was another attack a couple of weeks later and because the first one got so much media coverage the media were all over this story as well. So because dog attacks were hitting the headlines every serious attack was getting covered by the media to get attention from the public. These attacks have happened many times before and havent been covered and most of us havent been aware of it because they werent big stories. So now everyones getting the impression that loads of dogs are getting viscious when there are probably no more this year than any other year. Understand?

By no means am i saying that these things should be overlooked, just pointing it out.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Exactly ^. It's like everything- all the bad points come out at once. Take bird flu- a few people were possibly affected, and according to the press, we're all going to die horribly. Suddenly, however, they've forgotten all about it. Aso, the angle is often wrong- in many of the cases, you get fleeting mentions of the dogs being used as guard dogs or similar (take the incident in the pub)- what does the owner expect from a dog specifically trained to be aggressive? All the stories are seriously lacking in details- we have no idea what prompted the attack (we get the impression it was spontaneous, however, in most situations I doubt it, even if it wasn't something we'd consider as 'serious', like hurting the dog), there is emphasis put on 'pitbull like' or 'like' another breed of dog associated with violence, when in reality, it's probably no different a breed to many other family pets. Controls shouldn't be on the dogs- after all, with very little effort you could train a chiuaua, daschund, toy poodle or whatever to be a vicious killer. And large, 'aggressive' dogs, again with not much effort, can be perfectly behaved softies- one of my mother's friends has a doberman- it's scared of kittens, lino, laminate flooring.... Instead, there should be much tougher rules on who can own a dog. While you need incredibly rigorous questioning to even be considered to adopt a dog from a shelter, any moron with enough cash can buy any breed, no questions asked. As you said, it's probably the 'macho' image- which is why it's large, 'vicious' dogs like dobermans or pit bulls that always get the blame. It's the same way in which tiny dogs are often used as fashion accessories, only small size is the key term this time.

 

[geo7x]

Exactly ^. It's like everything- all the bad points come out at once. Take bird flu- a few people were possibly affected, and according to the press, we're all going to die horribly. Suddenly, however, they've forgotten all about it. Aso, the angle is often wrong- in many of the cases, you get fleeting mentions of the dogs being used as guard dogs or similar (take the incident in the pub)- what does the owner expect from a dog specifically trained to be aggressive? All the stories are seriously lacking in details- we have no idea what prompted the attack (we get the impression it was spontaneous, however, in most situations I doubt it, even if it wasn't something we'd consider as 'serious', like hurting the dog), there is emphasis put on 'pitbull like' or 'like' another breed of dog associated with violence, when in reality, it's probably no different a breed to many other family pets. Controls shouldn't be on the dogs- after all, with very little effort you could train a chiuaua, daschund, toy poodle or whatever to be a vicious killer. And large, 'aggressive' dogs, again with not much effort, can be perfectly behaved softies- one of my mother's friends has a doberman- it's scared of kittens, lino, laminate flooring.... Instead, there should be much tougher rules on who can own a dog. While you need incredibly rigorous questioning to even be considered to adopt a dog from a shelter, any moron with enough cash can buy any breed, no questions asked. As you said, it's probably the 'macho' image- which is why it's large, 'vicious' dogs like dobermans or pit bulls that always get the blame. It's the same way in which tiny dogs are often used as fashion accessories, only small size is the key term this time.

i agree, i think its pretty,.........naive (if thats the right way to put it) for the government or whatever to be singleing out specific breeds of dog as well. Ive met some pit bulls that are the soppiest things in the world. this kind of thing really does my head in

 

[fenwoman]

The following article discusses the current laws on dog control;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6222689.stm

There have been numerous attacks recently on people of all ages, from toddlers to pensioners, some of which have been fatel and others which have left life time scars, not just physically but also mentally on their victims.
5 year old girl dies from attack from pit bull terrior like breed;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6225205.stm

Man badly injured by boxer dog;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/glouces...ire/6225141.stm

Boy attacked by Jack Russel;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6201451.stm

Girl and pet dog killed by Japanese Akita's;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/6164331.stm

Etc...Type "dog attack" into the bbc news search engine and it will bring up hundreds of reports.


I don't doubt that certain types of dogs are more likely to attack people than others, however, i don't think there are any breeds of dogs that can't be trained not to. I think that although the breed of the dog will play a lot in its personality, the main factor of how a dog turns out simply comes down to its owner and how the owner trains, raises and keeps the dog.

I think part of the problem is that there are certain "macho" dogs- bull dogs, staffies, pit bull terriors, rhodesian ridgebacks etc all seem to play a part of the macho dog image. There are so many idiots who specifically go for certain breeds so the dog makes the owner look hard or tough. A certain percentage of dogs bought for these purposes are even sometimes specifically trained to be unsociable or bad tempered. But when it comes down to it, its the owner who should take the responsability for the dog, whatever happens.

I also think a part of the dog violence problem comes down to other factors...Many of the breeds of dogs we know or love today were bred to be working dogs in one way or another (like hunting dogs, sheep dogs, cattle dogs, guard dogs, pest control dogs etc)- these types of dogs are bred to have bags of energy, to run around in feilds working for 10 hours or more a day with no problem. This is the way many breeds have been bred for hundreds, even thousands, of years.
Now days, people are leading less and less active lifestyles and live in more and more populated area's. A sheep dog is not going to thrive in an environment where it spends pretty much its entire day sitting around in a flat or being cuddled, with only a hafl hour walk a day. Sooner or later the dog will become fat and unhealthy, or bored and rebelious against its lifestyle. A lot of dogs rebel and will start to have behavioral problems without enough excercise or mental stimulation in their day to day lives and environments.
These problems can often lead to agression in the dog, there are often many reasons for this.

I also think some people end up with delinquent (sp?) dogs because they are far, far too soft on them. A dog is a dog- it is not a child. That doesn't mean you shouldn't treat the animal with respect, but you should treat it as the animal it is. Dogs in general are very intelligent and sociable animals, if you allow yourself to become a push-over when your dog starts behvaing badly, then the situation will only get worse. A lot of people with serious problem dogs only do so because they either did not know how to enforce their authority and rules on the dog when it was young or new, or because they did not carry out the rules properly or enough.
I've seen people with dogs whose dogs try to shag people's legs all the time and their owners hardly do a thing about it. Such behavior is disgusting and wrong and the dog should be made to understand this as soon as the issue starts.
So yeah...Basically, my point is that;
a. There are breeds which are more challenging than others to keep depending on your lifestyle. Choose your dog carefully and don't just choose it based on its looks/appearance.
b. You are responsable for everything your dog does from the day you own it- if it craps on the pavement in the street, its your responsability to clean it up, if it bites you its your responsability to train it not to, and if you dog injures someone else...Then that is every bit your responsability as everything else.
c. Don't be cruel to dogs, but remember to be tough- stand your ground when enforcing the rules. If you are trying to teach your dog not to do something, don't let it get away with it, as that will either confuse the dog or make it believe it can dominate you etc.
d. If you cannot handle looking after your dog, or simply don't have enough time to exercise it every day and generally look after it, then either find the time to look after it, or take it to a training school, or rehome it. Don't let the problems get worse, especially if you know you will not be capable of handling these situations well or effectively.

Personally i think people need to be a lot more harsh on dog crime- owners are not half as severely punished as they should be i think. If a dog attacks someone it gets killed/put down, but what happens to the owner? The owner has practically signed the dogs death warrent by not training and handling it properly. Its almost a form of animal cruelty, as the dog has to pay for the owners irresponsability and ignorance/arrogance.
Dogs that are untrained or have issues and could potentially pose a danger to anyone should have a muzzle put on them anytime at all times they are out and about so they cannot bite people.

What are your current opinions on the current dog control laws? Do you feel that certain things need to be changed and if so, what?

I agree whoelheartedly with what you say. I run a dog advice line and am involved with rescue and fostering. I could weep at the amount of times I get phoned and asked to take a 12 months old rottie cross, staffy cross etc which the owners never bothered to socialise and because they were too stupid to housetrain, the dog gets put outside. When it starts escaping from the garden because it was never neutered, it gets put on a chain. Hey presto, the kids go out and torment the chained lonely dog which gets either aggressive or overexcited at the attention, jumps up, knocks the kid over and scratches or bites it, so they phone me wanting me to take it and rehome it. I usually ask if they would go to a rescue centre and adoopt a dog like theirs and usually they admit they wouldn't. I then point out that since they don't want the dog which is out of control, it is unlikely anyone else will either. Sadly I usually have to end up taking it since they will otherwise pass it on to some wannabe hard man who will think it's macho, or they dump it somewhere.However if I think it is unlikely ever to get a responsible home, I do recommend they have it put to sleep. Rescue kennels up and down the country are full of unhomeable dogs and as a result, perfectly good family dogs are being put to sleep by owners who cannot keep them as there is no kennel space available.
I don't know what the solution to the problem is though. Perhaps compulsory microchipping for all dogs and a one of licence fee of £200 when they buy a pup. This fee waived or cheaper if they get one from a rescue centre which is neutered and chipped and who have some measure of control over who gets to adopt?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I agree whoelheartedly with what you say. I run a dog advice line and am involved with rescue and fostering. I could weep at the amount of times I get phoned and asked to take a 12 months old rottie cross, staffy cross etc which the owners never bothered to socialise and because they were too stupid to housetrain, the dog gets put outside. When it starts escaping from the garden because it was never neutered, it gets put on a chain. Hey presto, the kids go out and torment the chained lonely dog which gets either aggressive or overexcited at the attention, jumps up, knocks the kid over and scratches or bites it, so they phone me wanting me to take it and rehome it. I usually ask if they would go to a rescue centre and adoopt a dog like theirs and usually they admit they wouldn't. I then point out that since they don't want the dog which is out of control, it is unlikely anyone else will either. Sadly I usually have to end up taking it since they will otherwise pass it on to some wannabe hard man who will think it's macho, or they dump it somewhere.However if I think it is unlikely ever to get a responsible home, I do recommend they have it put to sleep. Rescue kennels up and down the country are full of unhomeable dogs and as a result, perfectly good family dogs are being put to sleep by owners who cannot keep them as there is no kennel space available.
I don't know what the solution to the problem is though. Perhaps compulsory microchipping for all dogs and a one of licence fee of £200 when they buy a pup. This fee waived or cheaper if they get one from a rescue centre which is neutered and chipped and who have some measure of control over who gets to adopt?

Yes, all this poor dog treatment and irresponsability inevitably either leads to lots of unwanted dogs in shelters, or unwanted dogs being put down- i'm not sure which is worse sometimes, its a real shame.
Apparently abandoned staffies are at a record high;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgo...est/6219311.stm

They do make good family pets, but they aren't any easier to keep than any other dog. Fortunately though the bbc seems to be making some effort to help educate and make people aware of these problems, like "punish the deed, no the breed";

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6223911.stm

One of my friends has a little female staffie right now (still technically a puppy, but growing up fast)- i managed to persuade her not to breed the dog when it gets older. She is doing well training the dog so far, the dog no longer jumps up at or tries to chew on children (my friend was very keen to train the dog not to do this ASAP as she has a little girl herself). She used to hit the dog when it did bad things, however this just made the dog end up cowering around her, so now she has stopped hitting it and i am helping her find other ways to get the message across to the talk (like talking in a deep, dominating voice, or spraying water at the dog when it does bad things). The dog is a very lovable staffie though.

 

[catxx]

oof this a big debate i feel very strongly about. it's a bit late for me to go on a rant right now though.
there should be some kind of licensing in place for dog ownership.
theres at least 5 staffy-types living in my block, it being an ex-council central-london area, all the dogs are owned by families with unruley kids. the dogs seem ok though. twice i've met a staffy pup on the stairs who seems hell-bent on putting his muddy paws all over my work trousers, he's sweet though. shame he's being towed around by a 9 year old and now the dog is getting big, shes hanging on to him for dear life. i see so many staffy pups, bull terrier pups around here. it makes me kind of sad (bull terriers are the new staffy by the way, if the little louts that hang around the bus shelters are anything to go by)

 

[PlecMama]

Difficult. Some dogs are nasty and snappy and dangerous. So are some people. It all gets in the news when someone gets hurt - man stabbed, child bitten. It's more important when a BIG dog attacks someone because they do so much more damage. You might be able to train a killer chihuahua but really, unles you're a leprechaun it's not going to be that bigger threat to the average Joe on the street. 100lbs of Rottweiller is.

I don't think it's realistic to think ALL dogs can be trained to be good, not all people can be. It becomes unfortunate when a crappy dog is given to a twat human and you suddenly have a very dangerous combination.

My dog is not a good "people animal". She was an abused puppy, spent her childhood from 2 months to 9 months in kennels and we took her from there. Incidentally, they put her in there because she "kept chewing things" - no sht. She was 2 months old, what do you expect? idiots.

Anyway, we have a beautiful family dog with a lovely nature and a super personality who turns into a psychopath when she sees blonde women.
I don't know what her history there is, but it aint good. Only she knows what went on. Her and the original blonde woman anyway. We could I suppose train it out of her, but I have yet to find a blonde woman that wants to be the hate target of a pssed off 75lb lab cross. We just avoid situations that upset her.

Anyway, they need to put constraints on breeds and access to them because they don't seem to be able to put any controls on the idiots that want them for bad purposes. I think an ASBO should preclude you from ever owning a dog, like a felony means you can't own a gun. They are obviously not good people, and therefore how can they raise a responsible dog? Mind you, I don't think scum should be alllowed to have kids either but that's another conversation.

 

[Wisperian]

It's kinda scary because my neighbour had the sweetest golden retriever EVER that NEVER barked and like withhin a week, she barked and snarled and even attempted to bite me when I walked over to pet her and I'm sure she's the same dog because she has the same collar and such.

Bytheway, kinda off topic but there were actually a bunch of squirrels that killed a dog from lack of food. I read it off somewhere but I forgot where it is

 

[KathyM]

Breed specific legislation doesn't work Suzie, and it never will. I am wholeheartedly against the banning of any breed.

Interesting factlet - did you know that Staffordshire Bull Terriers are the only breed that is recommended specifically by the KC as good for families with children?

Tokis - dominance theory and pack ranking training in dogs is outdated and not regarded well by decent trainers any more. There's no need for shouting, water spraying or other "aversives" in training. Good positive training should be implemented from early puppyhood. Your friend could get help from an APDT registered dog trainer who uses positive methods such as clicker training. Staffies are incredibly trainable when motivated correctly.

One of the many problems with section 1 of the DDA is that the banned breeds are not banned by breed specifically, but by "type". This means that any dog, pedigree or crossbreed that fits the "type" description (link below) is technically covered. I read on another board a post by someone who knows the DDA well - apparently a labrador would fit the "pit bull type" by 90%. Most bull breed crosses will fit the "pit bull type" regardless of whether they actually have any APBT in them at all.

http/www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/do...dogsleaflet.pdf

The legislation is so open to being misused. Read this link:

http/www.endangereddogs.com/EDDROtis.htm

Otis was a well behaved crossbreed, probably Great Dane cross. Is it right that we have laws that allow what happened to him? Absolutely, unarguably, no.

It always makes me sad to see how the press leap on specific breeds. This morning it's a "black and white staffie type" that's getting the press coverage, purely for the tragedy that happened to Ellie by a completely different dog of a completely different breed/cross. I find it disrespectful to Ellie herself (God rest her soul) for them to use her as a bandwagon for drumming up unecessary mass hysteria on "devil dogs". We'll see more stories like this again. What you won't see are the stories like that of the dachsunds that killed a baby, or the cocker spaniel that ripped it's elderly owner's throat out. Dog bites by collies, poodles, labradors, etc, don't make good press. Relatively minor attacks by breeds labelled as "devil dogs" will. I didnt see the press knocking my door down for coverage on the dog that pinned my son down by his face and left him hospitalised and permanently scarred. Why? Because he was a greyhound. Did I cry out for the banning of all greyhounds? Course not, it would've been over the top and completely daft, as is all breed specific legislation.

What scares me even more is the last time we had press coverage on specific breeds like we have at the moment, it created such mass hysteria from bad reporting that the DDA of 1991 came into effect, banning 4 "types" of dog. Will this be extended because of the outcry of the ignorant?

I have a Bullmastiff here. She has been trained from the minute we got her, well socialised and responsibly owned. In the papers already, based on the "pit bull type" attack on Ellie, and the recent Rottweiler case, there is already outcry to have Bullmastiffs banned. Why do responsible owners and their pets have to pay for the crimes of others? We already have laws in place to make owners responsible for their dog, no matter what the breed. Banning breeds doesn't work and never will. The sad fact is that you ban a breed, and the people you didn't want having them suddenly find them ten times more attractive. The decent owners abide by the law. It will never, ever work. Enforcing the laws that are already there for ALL dog owners, would.

 

[grahamsokel]

Its the family my heart goes out to in all of this

I havent heard the news this morning as i have just come in from Milking the goats and doing the animals but yesterday the dog had not been confirmed as A PIT BULL but as a "Pit BUll Type" whatever one of them is.

Take this test...all these dogs in the past have been classed as PITBULLS or PITBULL TYPES, should they all be culled and destroyed

http/www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

You would be suprised how many people i know has looked at this test and didnt pick the Pitbull

 

[KathyM]

the dog had not been confirmed as A PIT BULL but as a "Pit BUll Type" whatever one of them is.

"Pitbull type" means any dog or crossbreed/mongrel that conforms to the checklist in the link I gave above (the Defra link). It is so vague than most medium sized dogs and certainly all bull breed/crosses would fit it.

Basically, they've confirmed it was a dog who has certain physical characteristics common to many bull breeds and their crosses, and to some other non bull breeds too.

When you break it down, they haven't really ascertained anything with the post mortem that they couldn't have done just by looking at the dog. They just want the public to believe they know what they're doing, which sadly they don't.

My thoughts absolutely still remain with Ellie and her family. It's just a shame that they'll use her name for injustice

 

[grahamsokel]

I agree Kathy the whole thing is a farce.They use the word Type and that puts a lot of innocent dogs at risk

someone here has a bullmastiff and a rottie they are both the softest dogs you could wish to meet I let them exercise them on my land and they are great with all my animals they even play gently with the Dachshunds.But then again he is a resposible owner and trined both of these dogs from pups

 

[KathyM]

Couldn't agree more with you Graham. The law is a complete farce when it comes to this. The people who decide which dogs live and which die often don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to dogs. If they did, dogs like Otis, who never did anything wrong, wouldn't be dying because of them

 

[The-Wolf]

and people wonder why I have cynophobia

I recall a trip to Helsinki and was delighted to see that every dog in public was muzzled,
I'm sure it is a law there, should the rest of the world not take note.