Disinfecting After Ich?

[raptorrex]

The whitespot parasite has a life cycle of around 5 days if i remember correctly and hence most treatments will last 6 or 7 days. Therefore, even if you don't re-dose, you should have done enough to eradicate the parasite.

Actually, the complete life cycle is often up to 14 days. The 5 days is close to the longest that the free swimming stage has to find a host to infect before dying, one must then take into accoutn the time spent on the fish and dividing on the substrate (when treatments are ineffective).

Ok. I'll take your word for it Andy because this is an area i am unsure of.

However, that being the case, how do we explain that a 7 day treatment of Protozin has cleared up Ich for me on several occasions? Surely if the life cycle was closer to 14 days, the 7 day treatment would either fail to clear up the parasite, or appear to kill it, only for it to return shortly after?

Also, why do the treatments not recommend 14 - 16 day courses? I don't think i've seen one that instructs to treat for that long.

ICK can be around in the tank, well fish and tank, and not cause problems. that's why it has become almost endemic throughout the trade. it could be that some stress with the fish is the cause of the parasite taking hold again.
take a look at this, the first link has some interesting graphs and some info on the life cycle of the bug. nearly all the comments on ICK suggest that most of us have it in our tanks. its just times of stress or other illness that let the parasite take off. its down to loss of the slime coat of our fish, so it says here.

 

[andywg]

Ok. I'll take your word for it Andy because this is an area i am unsure of.

Please don't. Look for yourself. A good start is the Skeptical Aquarist page.

In addition, the following sites agree on 10-14 days: About.com, Fish Forever (TFF website side), Futurepet.

Obviously, the above is just a google search with unverified sources (save Skeptical). So also consider Way More Than You Ever Wanted To Know About Ich by Doug Thamm of the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine where he states:

The life cycle takes 12-16 days to complete, depending on the temperature, and the tomite stage lasts for only three days.

However, that being the case, how do we explain that a 7 day treatment of Protozin has cleared up Ich for me on several occasions? Surely if the life cycle was closer to 14 days, the 7 day treatment would either fail to clear up the parasite, or appear to kill it, only for it to return shortly after?

Or, it could result in a very low level infection that takes a long time before showing on the outside of the fish (ich loves gills). I note you say it has cleared it up for you on several occasions. Were any of these on a tank that had been infected before? Is it possible you have blamed new fish for bringing in the parasite when it was already in the tank?

Also, why do the treatments not recommend 14 - 16 day courses? I don't think i've seen one that instructs to treat for that long.

Who knows. Why do similar companies sell us dead bacteria to seed our filters? Mr Thamm comments:

Excuse the digression here, but this is my chance to vent my frustration at the aquarium trade -- I think they purposefully give poor medicating information so that the consumer will treat only partially, and knock down the parasite burden only enough to temporarily cure the fish! Because not all the organisms are dead, they will bounce back in a few weeks or months, and the poor consumer has to run out and but more of the ich medication! What a scam!!

 

[backtotropical]

Thanks for that Andy. Very interesting reading.

You mention a low level infection which may take a long while to infect the fish. I'm sure i remember a discussion on here before which concluded that there is no real evidence that whitespot lies dormant in our aquariums. Do you consider this not to be the case?

I have had a recurrance of Ich on the same tank but we're talking months and months between outbreaks. I'm not sure how possible it would be for a low level infection to exist for so long without finding a host. Skeptical Aquarist quotes

"they must find a host within a very few days or perish: at 68oF none survived after 55 hours, according to Schaperclaus".

This suggests to me that low level infection is unlikely to last more than a couple of days.

Your point is taken about the 'bacteria in a bottle' though. That really annoys me that they can get away with selling such an obviously useless product. Interesting that Mr Thamm thinks they may be doing the same thing with the medications. The manufacturers of these products seem to really be ripping the cash out our pockets any which way they can with almost no consideration for, and often to the detriment of, the one thing they should be considering, the fish.

So, one last thing. 12 - 16 days is 3 treatments of Waterlife Protozin for example. Are we saying this is what needs to be done to completely erradicate the parasite?

Cheers

BTT

edit: Sorry Jonnyf84, kinda hijacked your thread a bit with this.

 

[eskcarr]

Hi all, i have had a bad time with my cold water tank, i had 2 goldfish and a koi carp living happily and healthy, i decided my koi needed some company so purchased another one from my lfs , it soon became apparent that it was sick and the disease has since killed my original 3 fish despite medicating , the carrier is still hanging in there but i'm sure it won't last much longer.

Once it has died how do i disinfect the tank, substrate and filter??? Can i still use the filter for my new stock?


Many thanks in advance,

Jonny

kassd

 

[raptorrex]

Thanks for that Andy. Very interesting reading.

You mention a low level infection which may take a long while to infect the fish. I'm sure i remember a discussion on here before which concluded that there is no real evidence that whitespot lies dormant in our aquariums. Do you consider this not to be the case?

I have had a recurrance of Ich on the same tank but we're talking months and months between outbreaks. I'm not sure how possible it would be for a low level infection to exist for so long without finding a host. Skeptical Aquarist quotes

"they must find a host within a very few days or perish: at 68oF none survived after 55 hours, according to Schaperclaus".

This suggests to me that low level infection is unlikely to last more than a couple of days.

Your point is taken about the 'bacteria in a bottle' though. That really annoys me that they can get away with selling such an obviously useless product. Interesting that Mr Thamm thinks they may be doing the same thing with the medications. The manufacturers of these products seem to really be ripping the cash out our pockets any which way they can with almost no consideration for, and often to the detriment of, the one thing they should be considering, the fish.

So, one last thing. 12 - 16 days is 3 treatments of Waterlife Protozin for example. Are we saying this is what needs to be done to completely erradicate the parasite?

Cheers

BTT

edit: Sorry Jonnyf84, kinda hijacked your thread a bit with this.

arnt you missing the point here? your fish can have ICK, and you may never notice!!! its when the fish get stressed or succumb to another illness that the parasite can take hold again. low level infection does not mean the infection is in the substrate, it means it in/on your fish, just in very low amounts.

 

[andywg]

You mention a low level infection which may take a long while to infect the fish. I'm sure i remember a discussion on here before which concluded that there is no real evidence that whitespot lies dormant in our aquariums. Do you consider this not to be the case?

There is no dormant stage in the lifecycle of ich. If you completely eradicate it through treatment it will not return unless it is re-introduced.

I have had a recurrance of Ich on the same tank but we're talking months and months between outbreaks. I'm not sure how possible it would be for a low level infection to exist for so long without finding a host. Skeptical Aquarist quotes

"they must find a host within a very few days or perish: at 68oF none survived after 55 hours, according to Schaperclaus".

This suggests to me that low level infection is unlikely to last more than a couple of days.

Not quite. Imagine that just one swimmer survives and due to the fish being strong less than 10 out of each new batch of swimmers can find a host. These could easily infect a tank full of fish without you realising (such as on the gills). Eventually something happens and the fish become mroe susceptible and you have a population explosion (such as a new fish which was in water without ich and thus has less defence than your fish).

The quote above points out that leaving a tank for a couple of weeks without fish will eradicate whitespot from the tank. If the odd swimmer finds a host then you still have an infection. Remember, that in the entire life cycle of around 12-16 days, Ich is only treatable for about 3. Treat for 7 days and you can easily miss the treatable stage.

So, one last thing. 12 - 16 days is 3 treatments of Waterlife Protozin for example. Are we saying this is what needs to be done to completely erradicate the parasite?

I would state that 12-16 days is the minimum. I would often go further and suggest treating for 12+ days after the last spot is seen.

 

[WILDER]

When a fish is stressed there immune system will be weak so I agree with the above poster.
Most fish carry parasites like flukes it only when a fish get stressed they start to do the damage.

 

[mark7616]

Never answered the whitespot part was more concerned with koi being in the tank, as they should be kept in ponds only,

koi carp should not be kept in aquariums they are very fast growing and need lots of food to thrive, give it to someone with a pond

Why cant koi be kept in aquariums untill there 24" then moved to an outside pond. Wilder you need to stop jumping on everyones back about things as soon as they post. Myself and a few others on here could quiet easily keep koi in the tanks that we have and so could the origional poster for all you know.

 

[WILDER]

I don't jump on posters.
Depends on how big is the tank when there little.

 

[mark7616]

Koi should not be kept in fish tanks they need ponds.

Im pretty sure you said the above. Now you tell me why Koi cant be kept in tanks.

 

[WILDER]

No I don't agree with koi being kept in tanks.
Even little talking of over 100 gallons.
There for ponds only unless you have a really massive tank.
They need room to move as they grow massive, and need excellents filters double the tank size.

My dad keeps koi and they are absolutely massive he's had them 24 years, kept in a massive pond.

 

[raptorrex]

You mention a low level infection which may take a long while to infect the fish. I'm sure i remember a discussion on here before which concluded that there is no real evidence that whitespot lies dormant in our aquariums. Do you consider this not to be the case?

There is no dormant stage in the lifecycle of ich. If you completely eradicate it through treatment it will not return unless it is re-introduced.

I have had a recurrance of Ich on the same tank but we're talking months and months between outbreaks. I'm not sure how possible it would be for a low level infection to exist for so long without finding a host. Skeptical Aquarist quotes

"they must find a host within a very few days or perish: at 68oF none survived after 55 hours, according to Schaperclaus".

This suggests to me that low level infection is unlikely to last more than a couple of days.

Not quite. Imagine that just one swimmer survives and due to the fish being strong less than 10 out of each new batch of swimmers can find a host. These could easily infect a tank full of fish without you realising (such as on the gills). Eventually something happens and the fish become mroe susceptible and you have a population explosion (such as a new fish which was in water without ich and thus has less defence than your fish).

The quote above points out that leaving a tank for a couple of weeks without fish will eradicate whitespot from the tank. If the odd swimmer finds a host then you still have an infection. Remember, that in the entire life cycle of around 12-16 days, Ich is only treatable for about 3. Treat for 7 days and you can easily miss the treatable stage.

So, one last thing. 12 - 16 days is 3 treatments of Waterlife Protozin for example. Are we saying this is what needs to be done to completely erradicate the parasite?

I would state that 12-16 days is the minimum. I would often go further and suggest treating for 12+ days after the last spot is seen.

oops this is the link that should have been in my above post, sorry forgot to paste it in.
[URL="http/aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=27"]http/aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=27[/URL]

there is an interesting comment here, it says that the ICK parasite can't survive in water temps above 25.6c 86f. not sure how true this is, as the author gives no indication as to where the figure comes from. but if its true, surly just bumping up the temperatures would be good enough. thats if your fish can take it.

an even better idea is this :http/www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~CM1131.html
it causes the fish to slough the parasites, and gives a none nutritional food replacement for them to eat. the result should be dead parasites, before they get chance to multiply they will starve. it is stated safe for freshwater fish too. and all with no truly harmful chemicals. anyone ever used this?

 

[backtotropical]

arnt you missing the point here? your fish can have ICK, and you may never notice!!! its when the fish get stressed or succumb to another illness that the parasite can take hold again. low level infection does not mean the infection is in the substrate, it means it in/on your fish, just in very low amounts.

Eeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr yes, i was missing the point. I understand now.

Andywg, thanks for the insight, i've learned something today. I guess i've just been lucky when treating Ich in the past.

Cheers

BTT

 

[raptorrex]

ok so the temperature in the above link is indeed correct, but it does not kill the parasite it stops it from reproducing, according to Untergasser's guide, but it needs to be kept there for 10 days, which kinda ties in the the comments made by andywg on the life cycle of the parasite. there also seem to be large numbers of people who perfectly good results with salt. ahh heck, its like most things in this hobby. there always seems to be only one way to do things, it just there are 100 ways to get there.