This has me stumped. Ich or Epistylis?

[justanotherbloodparrot]

Hello everyone. I have done quite a bit of research on this and I'm confused on what to do going forward, with my pleco in particular.

Let me give some background on my tank:
- 60gal breeder
- pothos on back, plants in sand
- bubble wall, AC110 HOB, and two sponge filters rated 100gal+
- perimeters are perfect

Got a BP cichlid and rubberlip pleco on 5/31. This is the first photo I took of the pleco. Looking back at it now, I can see some faint white spotting.

This photo was taken a 2.5 days after getting them. She finally came out of hiding. At this point, I was panic Googling. I raised temps slightly at this time. BP cichlid was fine.

This was two days afterwards. I understand how ich works, so I didn't expect the infection to be gone, and I know this stage, if ich, was just temporary until the supposed explosing.

The morning after that photo was taken, my BP had bright spots on his fins. I was waiting on ich-x still. Started meds one week exactly after getting them. The spots have entirely disappeared on my BP cichlid. Both are actually pretty active still.

The following photo is one day after treatment.

Two days into treatment of ich-x, my BP cichlid is better! Completely rid of spots. However the same can't be said about my pleco. There has been minimal improvement with her, and the white spots have came back. This was her less than an hour ago.

I've circled the spots I'm most worried about, plus her lack of response to the treatment. It worries me. Maybe epistylis secondary to the infection of ich?

I have a 5.5 gallon from a betta last year that I've had sitting around. I can absolutely set up a QT for her. Obviously will treat the DT with ich-x for 72hrs. I have Kanaplex lying around, too.

Should I move her to a more controlled environment and treat with a combo of ich-x and kanaplex? Thanks.

 

[GaryE22 137]

It looks like Ich to me, from the size of the cysts. The progression seems normal. It can take three weeks of treatments to defeat ich when it's gotten well established. You're using Ich X, which is malachite green, right? If so, it's a good med, but it won't always clear the parasite in one shot.

It may say it will, but Ich an be tenacious.

Moving the pleco to a 5 is probably not the way to go. He may not be big, but he will produce a lot of waste and water quality would be an issue.

Is your current tank cycled?

 

[TwoTankAmin17]

The key to treating Ich is to understand the life cycle of this parasite. It has several stages. In most of these it is protected and hared to kill. The meds work pretty much during a limited part of the life cycle. So, we can seem to eradicate it and then it is back.

The solution is to repeat the treatment some time after it appears to be gone. This is what keeps the ones alive in the other stages when they enter th stage where it is easy to kill.

One thing we can do to help with treatment is to raise the water temp. if the fish area bale to handle this. The warmer the water the faster the life cycle moves which makes it easier to eradicate.

One more thing to know. When a fish gets Ich and survives, it develops an immunity against it. However, this is not a lifetime immunity but it can last for some time. This has led to active efforts to develop and Ich vaccine.

Part of the issues in treating Ich relate to fish we eat. A lot of what can treat iIh is not permitted for use with such fish. This can make the choice of treatment different depending on the situation. I can tell you there has been a lot of research done on a variety of potential treatments. However, for us often the best option is the traditional use of Malachite Green combined with Formaldehyde.

However, the above medication can harm scaleless fish, so it is recommended that, when treating such fish, it is usually necessary to reduce the dosage.

If one is curious about all the potential treatments tried as of 2012, here is a very long detailed paper:

Picon-Camacho, S.M., Marcos-Lopez, M., Bron, J.E. and Shinn, A.P., 2012. An assessment of the use of drug and non-drug interventions in the treatment of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet, 1876, a protozoan parasite of freshwater fish. Parasitology, 139(2), pp.149-190.
https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream...ogy Ich chemo review.pdf?utm_source=consensus

 

[anewbie]

There are several white spot 'disease' parasite. The truth of the matter is they mostly behave the same and the treatment is the same so the specific one is mostly not relevant beyond curiosity. In your case i would just watch things as it seems minor and might eventually die off on its own; but both kordon rid ick plus and hitachi rid ick will pretty much address all the parasite and work quickly and effectively. i usually just pick the cheapest one at the time when i need it.

 

[justanotherbloodparrot]

It looks like Ich to me, from the size of the cysts. The progression seems normal. It can take three weeks of treatments to defeat ich when it's gotten well established. You're using Ich X, which is malachite green, right? If so, it's a good med, but it won't always clear the parasite in one shot.

It may say it will, but Ich an be tenacious.

Moving the pleco to a 5 is probably not the way to go. He may not be big, but he will produce a lot of waste and water quality would be an issue.

Is your current tank cycled?

I see.

Yes, it's cycled. I've been tracking numbers through treatment, and they have stayed all steady. Everything 0, average 20ppm nitrAtes or less depending.

I've bumped the temp back up. I lowered it out of fear of epistylis. I will continue to treat normally. I understand water use is a given in this hobby, but I worry about my water bill as I live in an apartment, hence why I suggested moving the pleco. I will do regular changes on the water once a day like I have been. I wanted to cut it from 20 gallons to only 1-3 gallon daily changes.

 

[TwoTankAmin17]

@anewbie

I have never heard of Ich just dying off on its own as long as there are potential hosts available during the infective stage. Can you point me to any research which supports what you posted? Of course if one has fish who have survived ich and have the immunity, then yes it might be possible for the Ich to die off untreated. But we have no way of knowing which fish can do this and which cannot.

When a fish is infected it has an immune response. The problem is this only means if it survives, the immunity persists. This is one reason why an Ich outbreak in a tank may kill some fish while others are able to fight it off. However, Ich is major killer of fish to this day. As hobbyists we can at least choose to use the meds which are prohibited in other areas.

Here is what I can say. In my 26 years of keeping fish and having between a single tank and as many as 28, I have only had to deal with Ich twice. Both times the infection came in on new fish. Once from a retail store and once on fish won on AquaBid. This, among other reasons, is why I have avoided retail stores a a source of the fish I have acquired.

When the Ich came in from the store I was lucky to have realized the need for a Q tank. It was a nasty outbreak on tetras and zebra danios. Only one of nineteen fish survived. In the Aquabid incident I manage to treat and save most of the few fish involved. I have been extremely lucky in terms of having to deal with diseases and parasites in my tanks.

 

[GaryE22 137]

I'm surprised at the idea of immunity. It's like us being immune to mosquitoes, given that isn't a disease. It's an animal that attacks. Maybe there's an increased body slime reaction that keeps the parasite from being able to catch on.

It's a horror scenario, like if we get a tick and it reproduces on us, releasing millions of ticks when it bursts. Hollywood, here I come.

Speed matters, and that's where the common pleco may have had a few unnoticed cysts to give it a head start. I have dealt with ich a few times since I started getting fish from the lfs. It's incredibly easy to beat IF you see it immediately and have the meds right there. Sadly, that eye for ich comes with experience.

When I was a kid, fish got ich as soon as they left the pet store, it seemed. People treated it just with salt and heat back then, and that doesn't solve the problem as quickly as meds do.

Removing what may be the parasite's vector (the pleco) makes sense as long as you treat both tanks anyway. It can be more persistent on one fish than another. But I doubt a 5 gallon'll do it for that fish. I'm afraid, @justanotherbloodparrot that you have one of the trouble fish in the hobby there. It'll outgrow your big tank set up, usually just about when you get attached to it. They get big and their waste production rivals a goldfish.

Ich is an awful little killer parasite, and hopefully, you can beat it this time and never see it again.

 

[anewbie]

@anewbie

I have never heard of Ich just dying off on its own as long as there are potential hosts available during the infective stage. Can you point me to any research which supports what you posted? Of course if one has fish who have survived ich and have the immunity, then yes it might be possible for the Ich to die off untreated. But we have no way of knowing which fish can do this and which cannot.

When a fish is infected it has an immune response. The problem is this only means if it survives, the immunity persists. This is one reason why an Ich outbreak in a tank may kill some fish while others are able to fight it off. However, Ich is major killer of fish to this day. As hobbyists we can at least choose to use the meds which are prohibited in other areas.

Here is what I can say. In my 26 years of keeping fish and having between a single tank and as many as 28, I have only had to deal with Ich twice. Both times the infection came in on new fish. Once from a retail store and once on fish won on AquaBid. This, among other reasons, is why I have avoided retail stores a a source of the fish I have acquired.

When the Ich came in from the store I was lucky to have realized the need for a Q tank. It was a nasty outbreak on tetras and zebra danios. Only one of nineteen fish survived. In the Aquabid incident I manage to treat and save most of the few fish involved. I have been extremely lucky in terms of having to deal with diseases and parasites in my tanks.

I can't point you to anything specific but i have seen fishes that are healthy more or less not get sick - or therefore not be valid hosts. Haven't you ever had an outbreak where a very healthy fish simply does not get sick ?
--
Anyway one or two dots is not deadly but yes if it gets worse i would treat with kordon't or hitachi med (which are readily available in usa; though i hear europe is more restrictive).

Yes ick can kill a fish but it usually takes a *lot* of the parasites to do so and pleco tend to be quite robust.

 

[TwoTankAmin17]

@GaryE

If you want I can link you to numerous papers, review papers and books which support the immunity side of this. Basically, the fish respond with the immunity reaction the problem is it is usually not enought to save the fish. Apparently when it does or if we help the fish to beat it, the immunity becomes strong enough to protect the fish for some time into the future.

The result of discovering the immunity resposnse has led to there being research which is seeking to develop a vaccine. It would be a lot easier to defeat Ich if it could be prevented and/or minimized initially. So far they have not found a vaccine to do this. It is much more import to have a vaccine for the food fish industry bcause ot the limits on allowable treatments.


@anewbie

It is the immune response that is at work and not a quastion of a healthy fish but of the effectiveness of the immunity response.

I do not make this stuff up, I rely on the current known Science.

Mathiessen, H., Hansen, S.B., Kodama, M., Gelskov, S., Limborg, M.T. and von Gersdorff Jørgensen, L., 2025. One dies, the other survives–a comparison of the early transcriptomic immune responses in zebrafish and rainbow trout infected with Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Comparative Immunology Reports, p.200263.

The immune response to Ich infection varies among fish species, as does their susceptibility. Holland’s spinibarbel (Spinibarbus hollandi) is more resistant compared to grass carp (Ctenopharyngodon idella) [44]. Zebrafish show higher natural resistance compared with species such as channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus) and rainbow trout [15,45]. Zebrafish can eliminate the parasite within 5–7 hpi suggesting that early host-parasite interactions determine infection severity [35]. In contrast, species such as rainbow trout [21,29,39], channel catfish [32,46] and common carp (Cyprinus carpio) [24,27] are highly susceptible and the disease often leads to high mortalities. However, the mechanisms underlying these differences in immune response and susceptibility, as well as the specific genes and pathways involved in resistance, remain largely unknown. Therefore, the objective of this study was to perform the first comparative transcriptomic analysis of early gill immune responses to Ich infection in relatively resistant zebrafish and highly susceptible rainbow trout, complemented by real-time qPCR validation.

from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2950311625000680

 

[bgarthe23 41]

I think GaryE hit it on the head with all the Ich stuff. “It's incredibly easy to beat IF you see it immediately and have the meds right there.”
In other words, having an Ich Med on hand for when it happens is key. Having it on hand allows for super prompt action which is critical. If one is lucky enough not to get Ich, fine dandy.
But…….it’s always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
This is one of several key components to the general stocking of fish meds that should always be on hand for a fish keeper in a moment’s notice. If one combines QTing with a properly stocked med supply, they’re sure to be better off.

 

[TwoTankAmin17]

Actually, what is most important in determining if a fish might survive ich or not isn't how fast or which meds one use, but what the natural level if the immune response the fish has.

So, the right meds will be most effective when the fish involved has the a higher immune response. The soecies which do not will be more at risk not matter how or when treatment begins, The problem is there are way ore species we might keep than have been assessed for their innate immunity response.

When it comes to the research being done, food fish research will always be done long before the same is done for ornamental species.

One notable exception is zebrafish. these are one of the major species used in research.

I have had a fish med. kit for a very long time. My problem is a lot of my meds expire unused and must be replaced. But as bgarthe said, it is better to have them and not need them than the reverse.

 

[bgarthe23 41]

I will add that a draw back to this well stocked med supply is what TwoTankAmin said regarding….…meds expiring…..and the seemingly wasteful act of tossing them out. I guess it’s kind like insurance. We pay for for years and usually don’t use….sort of like tossing out our $. That is, until it (insurance or meds) are needed, and then one is sure glad he/she had it.
I buy the meds I’m less likely to use in smaller amounts which allow me to start implementing while I acquire more. Meds I use more frequently, like Seachem Paraguard for preventative treatment in QT tanks I buy in larger sizes/amounts. It seems less bothersome/painful to toss a small med container than a large one.

 

[GaryE22 137]

I've never seen Ich not develop and grow. Epistylis, yes. I had two fish with cysts for well over a year.

Ich is an active feeder. It kills, possibly in conjunction with other causes as the fish is weakened, but it certainly weakens. It also takes advantage of weakness. It used to be dead common in my teens when I'd buy fish in winter and bring them home on the city bus. Chilling...
But the immunity question goes well with that, because for it to have taken off, it had to be there in the first place.

I've seen photos of fish with it in the wild - one or two cysts. Fish tanks trap the fish in close quarters with the parasites. So something that would pass on by in a river forms a swarm in a tank, unfortunately.

For the OP, who may not be into the papers, I'd say at least 3 treatments over 3 weeks and see where you stand.