Cycling Your Tank With Ammonia Hydroxide When To Add Plants

[cl3537]

Dear All,
 
I am about to buy a brand new tank and have nothing as of yet so it will be a sterile environment.
I was planning a fishless cycle with Ammonia Hydroxide.
 
This was my first post on the forum http://www.fishforums.net/index.php...ots-of-questions-i-hope-you-gurus-can-answer/

The comment was made by Byron who was nice enough to post to help me with my setup.
 
"Now live plants are being intended, I would not do any "cycling" as such.  Ammonia is deadly toxic to all forms of life in excess, and while one can cycle new tanks with ammonia I would not do so when live plants are intended.  Set the tank up, add the plants, and when all is working well add your first few/small fish and use a bacterial supplement as was being discussed earlier.  I never cycle tanks, and haven't for years.  As long as you have lots of plants and fast-growing ones (the chain sword, and floating plants) and go easy on the fish you will be fine."
 
I am trying to figure out the best way to do this, I plan on getting Amazon Swords, Anubias Nana, Java Fern, its a 12G Fluval Edge (17" long X 10.5" wide, 17.5" tall) ( tank so all the plants I buy will be small initially and I tend on keeping them trimmed for a minnimilist look.

The question I have is will the Ammonia kill or damage my plants? When should they be added in the cycling process?
 
Alternatively as suggested should I just use 1 or 2 fish, the plants and nutrafin cycle instead of the fishless cycle?
 
All comments and alternative suggestions welcome.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I answered in the other thread, but will mention quickly here...
 
 
1 - I've cycled a tank with ammonium hydroxide and java fern.  The java fern were perfectly fine.  They are quite hardy plants and the key is to lower the dose.  I dosed at 3ppm, but I also seeded the filter with some mature media.  In your case, I'd lower the dose to 1-2 ppm.
 
2 - The plants can use ammonia directly from the water column as their nitrogen source.  While it is true that the plants will use nitrate, they can also use ammonia as well.  So, the plants will actually help to shorten the time of the cycle.
 
3 - If something goes wrong with the cycle, whatever it is, you will only be gambling the life of some extremely hardy plants.  If something goes wrong with the fish-in cycle, you are gambling the life of the fish.  With a young one, as I know you have, it is easier to have to explain what happened to the plants than what happened to their favorite fish.

 

[Byron]

I'll (hopefully) clarify my previous brief comments which may help.
 
First, ammonia is toxic to all life forms, be they fish, bacteria, plants, invertebrates, depending obviously upon the level.  Plants can rapidly detoxify [take up] ammonia in two ways.  The first is as their preferred source of nitrogen, or ammonium to be exact.  This is a basically harmless form of ammonia.  In acidic water ammonia changes into ammonium automatically (it has to do with the ions) and is not harmful to fish.  In basic (pH above 7) water, plants take up the ammonia and internally convert it into ammonium.  The second way plants take up and detoxify ammonia is in synthesizing proteins.  Different species of plants have different levels of tolerance to ammonia; plants with more carbohydrates have a higher level of tolerance.
 
[Nitrate was mentioned.  Most aquatic plants will only resort to using nitrate if ammonia/ammonium is not available sufficiently for photosynthesis in balance with light and the other nutrients.  This is because plants have to change the nitrate back into ammonium, and this uses valuable energy, so it is only done when necessary.]
 
I have no idea how much pure ammonia can be added to a given aquarium without killing certain plants.  I would rather not risk things, and when live plants are present I would not add ammonia as such, beyond what will occur naturally from fish, invertebrates, decomposition, etc.  Walstad in her book has some levels for a few plants, but her conclusion is that sensitive species of plants would be harmed by about 1 mg/l of NH4+ (ammonium).  And mg/l is roughly equivalent to ppm, so it doesn't take much.
 
The other thing to keep in mind is that high levels of ammonia will inhibit the nitrite oxidizing bacteria.  Scientific studies have shown that Nitrospira [the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria] are inhibited and cannot multiply in water that contains significant concentrations of ammonia, and evidence exists to suggest that existing populations of Nitrospira actually become dormant when ammonia is present in high concentrations.  Kim et al. (2006) determined that with an active ammonia [NH3] level of 0.7 mg/l (=ppm) Nitrospira bacteria experienced a decrease of 50% effectiveness, resulting in an accumulation of nitrite.   This suggests to me that the "cycle" will be longer with more ammonia, as the second stage will be slower.  I suspect this is why cycling can last up to 8 weeks.  The bacteria themselves can multiply (which they do by binary division) approximately every 12+ hours for Nitrosomonas and up to 32 hours for the Nitrospira sp.
 
The best plants to use in new tanks are fast-growing, since these need and thus take up more nutrients including ammonia.  Stem plants do this, but best of all are the floating plants.  These have the aerial advantage, as they can assimilate CO2 from the air which is four times faster than from water, and of course there is much more CO2 in the air than in the water in a new fish tank.  So they will almost always be better at removing substances like ammonia from the water.
 
Another factor that enters the equation is tank volume.  The more water, the more ammonia will dissipate.  It is when we have small tanks and try to add too large and/or too many fish that ammonia quickly causes trouble.  So starting with a very few and small fish, with floating plants, will work.  The "cycle" will still occur, but it will be "silent" as some call it, because neither you nor the fish will be aware of it.  Plants out-compete bacteria for ammonia at all times, which is one reason nitrates can be close to or at zero in well-planted tanks; there is less ammonia going through the nitrification to nitrite to nitrate.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Byron.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Science is not as clear on the issue if ammonia toxicity to Nitrospira as Byron states. Consider this
 
A targeted study on possible free ammonia inhibition of Nitrospira
R A Simm, D S Mavinic, W D Ramey
Journal of Environmental Engineering and Science, 2006
 
 

Abstract
 




Batch tests were carried out with Nitrospira in mixed and pure cultures using concentrations of free ammonia widely believed to be inhibitory to nitrite-oxidizing organisms. The mixed culture batch tests were conducted with mixed liquor from a bench scale completely stirred tank reactor (CSTR) treating a synthetic wastewater having a low C:N ratio. Nitrospira were confirmed as the dominant nitrite oxidizers via RNA slot blotting. Nitrospira moscoviensis were used for the pure culture trials. The results from this study suggest that free ammonia (NH3-N) concentrations of up to 10 mg/L were not inhibitory to Nitrospira either in situ or in pure culture.

from http/www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/s05-044
 
Then lets consider what Dr. Hovanec clearly states on his site in regards to ammonia and fishless cycling.

 Day 1 – dose ammonia to 3 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] max.  If using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria add it now.......
 
Tips and Troubleshooting:

• IMPORTANT – Do not let the ammonia or nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm.
• If either ammonia or nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm, do water changes to lower the concentration.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling
 
And then where he states this he clarifies that he is using the nitrogen scale.
 

 
Also, if you decided not to use our Live Nitrifying Bacteria in the beginning and now want to add some to speed up the process, you need to make sure the ammonia and nitrite concentrations are under 5 mg/L-N before adding the One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start
 
The single biggest single determinant of the speed at which any fishless cycle may progress is the amount of bacteria present at the start. Next would be the concentration (ppm) of ammonia the bacterial colony is expected to process to nitrate in 24 hours- this determines the concentration at which the ammonia will be dosed.
 
In a tank devoid of plants the average cycle done to 3 ppm on the total ion scale typically used by hobby kits (API for example) should take about 5 - 6 weeks. When plants are present this changes things. Not only can they consume the ammonium portion of ammonia, they also have bacteria on them. So they act to seed a tank in this respect. Ammonia as NH3 is toxic to many things. But this is not a blanket toxicity, the nitrifying bacteria actually consume NH3. However, different strains of ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) thrive best in differing levels of ammonia. Those typically found in fw aquariums are one's which do well a lower concentrations and can be harmed by concentrations at higher levels. But other AOB will then predominate, ones which thrive on such higher ammonia levels and are not normally found in any numbers in tanks if at all.
 
The same applies to the nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) here there are basically only two types to consider, Nitrospira and Nitrobacter. Just like the AOB, these too predominate at different levels of ammonia and nitrite. It is the former that dominate in aquariums.
 
As for how much ammonia any given plants can handle for the amount of time it would be present in a tank during a fishless cycle is variable and often unknown. So I can only speak from personal experience in this regard. Over the years I have cycled a number of tanks using a combination of plants, cycled media and ammonia. The time it took for the tank to process 2-3 ppm of ammonia varied from wright away to 10 days. In addition, I have had cycled planted tanks become devoid of fish for weeks at a time and have kept them cycled by dosing 1-2 ppm of ammonia every 3 days or so. I have never lost any plants doing the above and these included the more common stems, ferns and anubias as well as small swords and even some floaters. The tanks ranged from somewhat to well planted.
 
If one is doing more sophisticated/more heavily planted tanks this will changes things a lot. But for a tank with a few basic plants, simply reducing the ammonia dosing to 2 ppm from the normal 3 suggested in the article here should prove safe for the vast majority of beginner plants. But it will change the numbers one sees from those found in the article.
 
One more observation on how to proceed. Plant the tanks and let the tank run for about 2 weeks before you begin with the cycling part. Healthy healthy plants store nutrients and  you don't need to worry about adding ferts initially. This way the plants have some chance to establish. Then when you start your ammonia additions, they will further settle in and start to grow. If you want to use a bacterial supplement, I would add it after the two weeks and follow the directions for that product. As soon as the tank can process 2 ppm of ammonia and also show 0 ppm of nitrite in 24 hours or less, you can fully stock the tank with fish.
 
The gradual stocking which is mentioned above is another route. However, when doing fairly light planting the danger is that one can start with too few plants and/or ones which take up nutrients more slowly. They may not consume all the ammonia the starter fish can produce combined with other natural ammonia sources beginners may inadvertently create (over feeding for example).
 
Lastly, I do not recommend Stability as it contains no live bacteria and the nitrifiers (both bacterial and archaeal) must be live as they do not form spores. Stability states it contains no live bacteria, so it cannot contain the what we want.

 

[cl3537]

Thanks so much Byron and Twotankamin the discussion is very helpful for me. As I can't safely buy Dr. Tim's One and One in Montreal with risk of freezing I need to go with Tetra Safestart.
 
What I am trying to do is adapt the different methods to my situation let me know if this sounds plausible.
 
I should point out the tank I am going to buy is a 46 litre(12 gallon) fluval edge.

 
The top is all glass with a small removable lid in the centre area only. The WAP (Wife Appreciation Factor) is important for this tank choice as I am sure the conventional ones with full removal tops  are much easier to maintain.
 
 
This question was posted on another fish forum:
 
Can Tetra safe start be used with ammonia instead of fish as surely ammonia is ammonia no matter where it comes from & if so what would the ppm dosage be so as not to kill the good bacteria? Thank you


Answer from tetra:
Hello,
Thank you for taking the time to email us and we apologize for the delay in our response. We wouldn’t suggest any level of ammonia above 4ppm b/c it can start becoming harmful to the strains of nitrifying bacteria. If you can keep the level around 2ppm and no higher, that would be ideal.

Best of luck!
 
So based on that information I thought of this plan.
 
1) Setup tank put in sand substrate and chlorine conditioned water, let filter run 24 hours.
2) Add Ammonia 2 ppm and add tetra safestart and then follow instructions for adding ammonia in the tff guide  until the tank appears cycled.
3) Add the plants (Swords, Anubias, Fern, possibly Crypts)
4) Check levels and if still 0 and 0 for Ammonia and Nitrite and reasonable for nitrates after 24 hours go ahead and add a few fish like the first 3  Endlers or Guppys.
5) Monitor Ammonia levels and Nitrite for a month or two before fully stocking the tank with Shrimp, Snails and the rest of the fish.
 
That is Option A.
 
Option B would be as Byron and my LFS has been suggesting (although not sure I would be following him completely if I didn't buy certain floating plants) just plant add Tetra Safestart and add 1 or 2 fish to keep bioload small and slowly increase the biolad over a few weeks or months monitoring for ammonia spikes and if they occur do more frequent water changes till the tank is cycled.
 
Option C
 
Adapted from Twotankamin, Put plants in, wait two weeks for them to acclimate, then do fishless cycle with tetra safestart and dosing 2ppm or less Ammonia with the plants in. Then once cycled add fish.
 
----------------------------
I am favoring Option A it seems to be pretty safe and if tetra safestart cuts down on the time I will be pleased with the results. I prefer this over risking plants or both plants and fish to Ammonia poisoning.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Option A is a very good one.  I would probably lean towards Option C, personally, because there's really no fear with your plant choices and the ammonia levels being discussed in my experience.
 
 
But, with Option A, I'd stick to 1ppm ammonia for the cycle for the first addition, and then bump it up to 2ppm once you get double zeros for ammonia and nitrite after 24 hours for adding 1ppm.

 

[cl3537]

Option A is a very good one.  I would probably lean towards Option C, personally, because there's really no fear with your plant choices and the ammonia levels being discussed in my experience.
 
 
But, with Option A, I'd stick to 1ppm ammonia for the cycle for the first addition, and then bump it up to 2ppm once you get double zeros for ammonia and nitrite after 24 hours for adding 1ppm.

 
Tank is 12G 46litres, with about 2 inches Tahitian Moon Sand and some river rocks.
 
Put 3 Marimo Moss Balls(3 inches in diameter), Bacopa Monnieri about 10 inches tall (15 stems about 3  plants), and 3 Amazon Swords 5 - 8 inches tall (15 stems or so 3 plants)  in the tank ran filter and lights for about 1 week.
 
Added Ammonia (Old Country 5% Ammonia calculated for 1ppm based on 40L tank), tested a couple hours later using API master test kit showed ~1ppm Ammonia 
 
Added Tetra Safestart (Half  125ml bottle good for 70 Gallon Tank)
Tested about 12 Hours later Ammonia was at ~0.5ppm
Tested 24 Hours After Ammonia still at ~0.5ppm Nitrites not detectable. (Test kit really can't differentiate accurately between the numbers)
 
Added the rest of the bottle of Safestart (Read somewhere to use the whole bottle so I figured it couldn't hurt)
Tested 12 Hour Later Ammonia was at 0.25ppm Nitrites not detectable.
 
So I am curious what is the source of Ammonia Consumption?
 
A) Something in TSS other than Nitrosonomas and Nitrospira?
B) Plants taking up some Ammonia
C) The BB are working, Nitrosomonas more slowly with Nitrospira working completely.
 
Unfortunately at these concentrations I wouldn't expect to get meaningful results for a Nitrate test yet.
Should I dose back up to 1ppm Ammonia?