Bubble Counter

[Squid]

Thinking about going down the pressurised CO2 route, and I have a really daft question:

I hear people talking about bubble counters and bubble count, and how they should be aiming for a certain bubble count.. I'm not really sure how this works. If bubbles and tanks vary in size, as will the starting point of a tanks Co2 levels, then what use is this bubble count.

I would have though that a bubble count would be an indication to the indiviuals tank that roughly the same amount of Co2 is entering the tank, if they have figured out that in their particular tank that X bubbles/s = Y ppm of Co2, and therefore saves doing a test as frequently if you don't have permanent test.

I guess it would be possible to give someone a rough indication for a tank size as a starter, to enusre they did not go over the top on the first day and gas the fish out . With that in mind, what would be the expected bubble count for a 180 litre / 47.5 USG tank with say a JBL pressurised kit.?

Cheers
Squid

 

[juwelfan]

4.6566334333456 bubbles.......... sorry, just messing about.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Yep your right. The bubble count is not a very good way of measuring the CO2 because:
A) 2 bubbles per second on a 500g tank will give different results to 2BPS on a 1g tank.
B) Depending on your bubble counter the size of the bubbles will be different anyway to other bubble counters.
C) If you have a rubbish diffusor that is only disolving 50% of your CO2 into the water 2 bubbles per second will give a lower CO2 concentration then using a diffusor which disolves 90% of the CO2 into the water.

That being said though in general a lot of people have tanks that are around the 30-40g mark and the difference in the size of bubbles is not that different between the different bubble counters. So in general 1-3 bubbles per second is about right for most well planted tanks.

In short though I would get a drop checker and some 4dHK solution as it is the best way to make sure the levels are right (for the sake of £10-15 it could save all your plants and all your fish). Just remeber that drop checkers take a couple of hours to change colour so if you make any adjustments to the CO2 dont expect the drop check to change right away (so make a small adjustment, wait a couple of hours then make another one).

Edit: My tank is slightly smaller and I have just over 1 bubble a second for a heavily planted tank. I could push this up a bit but I found this level is just about right for good (but not insanely fast) growth.

 

[Squid]

Thanks... good info.

The JBL kit comes with a permanent check, so perhaps that might be ok. I'm still looking into the pressurised co2 kits though to see which one i prefer.

Cheers
Squid

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Yeah I use the JBL one and it works great for me. Some people have said their wasnt too good though.

If you do get the JBL one (and assuming your in the UK) I found (someone on here gave me) a link to a weilding supply firm where I can get 3 bottles of CO2 for about £25 (compared to 1 bottle of "aquarium" Co2 for £18) they hold slightly more as well so it is a real bargin.

For the drop checker it is worth making (or buying) some 4dKh solution rather then using tank water in it with the indicator. This just means it is a lot more accurate (especially if you have anything else in the water that could change the PH or KH).

 

[Rob.S]

I found (someone on here gave me) a link to a weilding supply firm where I can get 3 bottles of CO2 for about £25

That sounds like 'Thewelderswarehouse'? With VAT & delivery, it's more like £33.
If you have a Machine Mart store near you, they do the same 600g for about £830, plus postage.

 

[dave_gray2077]

I use pressurised CO2 and bubble counter are useless gimmicks in my opinion. I dont use on

You cannot accurately measure CO2 based on bubble count. Temperature pressure and tank size/water volume will alter the bubbles needed.

Barney got it spot on. Just use 4dKh solution and a low Ph range test kit.

A word of warning!

Its best to set your CO2 level before adding any Fish. Its very easy to overdoes CO2 when using a pressurised kit. I killed two 8 year gold goldies by mistake with my first pressurised kit.

 

[Rob.S]

Whilst you cannot measure the Co2 levels with a bubble counter, the idea behind them (I think) is that once you get the correct level - using a drop checker; you then know the bubble rate, to achieve/maintain that setting.

Agree/disagree?

 

[smithrc]

agree... in a 180l - start with about a 30bpm rate and work from there

I posted a formula that my local store gave me. (a good planted store)
it used the KH and the size of the tank to work out a bubble rate to give about 25ppm co2.

I'm not sure where the post went though as I've bene looking for it recently and cant find it.

(3x 600g cylinders from machine mart is £29.13 posted )

 

[Dave Spencer]

Whilst you cannot measure the Co2 levels with a bubble counter, the idea behind them (I think) is that once you get the correct level - using a drop checker; you then know the bubble rate, to achieve/maintain that setting.

Agree/disagree?

I disagree. The drop checker is what you should be using to maintain the CO2 levels. I would only adjust my CO2 if my drop checker indicated it needed doing. Besides, the bubbles are going in to my 120l tank too quickly to be counted.

All the bubble counter can be effectively used for is when you are adjusting levels, to give an indication of how much you are increasing or decreasing the amount, but you still watch the drop checker to monitor the results.

Am I the only person that doesn`t bother with bubble counters because I can see them going through the diffuser/reactor?

Dave.

 

[Underwurlde]

...in that case you don't need a bubble counter as effectively you already have one.

The most accurate inexpensive way to indicate CO2 levels to a set amount would be the drop checkers, but true, the bubble counters do provide a loose indication of CO2 levels if based on say two set points. I don't know if there is a linear relationship between bubbles counted and CO2 levels. If they were then I don't see why a bubble counter would not be as accurate as drop checkers - as long as the bubbles could actually be counted of course!

Andy

 

[Dave Spencer]

Bubbles will vary in size from system to system. What no bubble count will take in to account is the effectiveness of the method of diffusion.

Each to their own, but bubble counters are somewhere at the bottom of my Christmas wish list, alongside pH controllers.

Dave.

 

[Underwurlde]

...but the bubble size and diffusion type doesn't matter.... For any given system, the diffusor will be the same (unless you change it, then you'd have to recalibrate), the bubble size will be the same.

Andy

 

[Dave Spencer]

With that in mind, what would be the expected bubble count for a 180 litre / 47.5 USG tank with say a JBL pressurised kit.?
Cheers
Squid

With the original question in mind, the level of diffusion will be a factor when trying to recommend a BPM. The same bubble count using CO2 misted in to the tank will give higher CO2 than using a ladder. It is not possible to tell someone with a 180l tank what their bubble rate should be to achieve the desired level of CO2. I am unable to count the bubbles going in to my 120l to achieve 30ppm, let alone trying to count them in to a 180l.

I can achieve a fairly accurate 30ppm with my drop checkers, but would have no real way of telling counting the bubbles. My fish would let me know if there is too much, and algae will let me know if their is too little, but we need to be more accurate than this. A dropper is currently the most effective in terms of cost against accuracy. Bubble counters are not necessary IMO.

I would always recommend a drop checker to someone new to pressurised CO2 for monitoring purposes, rather than counting bubbles.

Dave.

 

[Rob.S]

Am I the only person that doesn`t bother with bubble counters because I can see them going through the diffuser/reactor?

Dave.

No